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Phoenix Coyotes file for Chap 11 protection

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Ultimately I think Balsillie is going to fail again, but he's going to make an absolute mess out of this situation before it is all said and done with. The court isn't going to just walk away from $212.5 million or whatever the offer is, but, as already mentioned, they can't very well force the NHL to move the team out of Arizona, much less to a different country, or so one would think. I think perhaps the biggest factor in how this will play out is NHL lawyers versus Balsillie lawyers: who has the deepest pockets? I can imagine a scenario where Balsillie will agree to keep the team in PHX for n number of years, and if he can't turn things around, the league will allow him to move the team. But seeing how much a jerk (for lack of a better term) he has been to the league, I can also just as easily imagine he'll let the Coyotes rot until he can move the team.

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See when he was trying to buy Nashville, the Preds were locked into their lease, Bettman made it clear as long as they had an active lease Jim couldn't move them. If the bankruptcy voids the lease with Glendale, Bettman is going to be in for a huge fight in regards to stopping JB.

All it takes to defeat JB now is someone with $217.5M now.

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Being a fan of this team this is exactly what I want to see the league doing though, fighting teams from being moved. People dont believe we belong here either and I dont want our franchise to leave if we hit despair.

You wouldnt think Pittsburgh or Buffalo would hit despair but they did, I'm glad they didnt move despite hating both teams. The league doesnt need another Canadian team, Canada is hooked on hockey. We need exposure and since we cant get exposure through national TV we need to keep teams in the US and expose people that way if this leagues ever gonna fully take off.

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If there was any possible way Moyes could sell the team, he would find it. I would rather have a team stay in Phoenix than have another Canadian team. No offense, but they just shove as much teams in one area as possible. Maybe move the team to Seattle or something, not 30 minutes away from Toronto. There are spots that deserve a team more than Southern Ontario.

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Being a fan of this team this is exactly what I want to see the league doing though, fighting teams from being moved. People dont believe we belong here either and I dont want our franchise to leave if we hit despair.

You wouldnt think Pittsburgh or Buffalo would hit despair but they did, I'm glad they didnt move despite hating both teams. The league doesnt need another Canadian team, Canada is hooked on hockey. We need exposure and since we cant get exposure through national TV we need to keep teams in the US and expose people that way if this leagues ever gonna fully take off.

The NHL will always be a niche city sport in the U.S. plus it got expansion in Tampa, Florida, Columbus, Atlanta, Denver (from Quebec), Phoenix, Minnesota, San Jose, and Anaheim. Expanding isn't the answer for exposure.

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Southern Ontario could easily support another NHL team. Easily.

Quebec could also go for another one, too. The Nordiques didn't move because of a lack of fan support, but rather because of a lack of corporate sponsorship.

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The Nordiques didn't move because of a lack of fan support, but rather because of a lack of corporate sponsorship.

Basically the same reason Winnipeg won't get a team.

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The NHL will always be a niche city sport in the U.S. plus it got expansion in Tampa, Florida, Columbus, Atlanta, Denver (from Quebec), Phoenix, Minnesota, San Jose, and Anaheim. Expanding isn't the answer for exposure.

Dallas (from Minnesota), Calgary (from Atlanta)

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The NHL will always be a niche city sport in the U.S. plus it got expansion in Tampa, Florida, Columbus, Atlanta, Denver (from Quebec), Phoenix, Minnesota, San Jose, and Anaheim. Expanding isn't the answer for exposure.

How many hockey fans do you think each city minus Minnesota had prior to a franchise going there, expecially here in Carolina.

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How many hockey fans do you think each city minus Minnesota had prior to a franchise going there, expecially here in Carolina.

Columbus and Denver have a higher hockey exposure as well. Not as high as Minnesota but definitely higher than the southern cities on that list because of the college hockey programs in those areas.

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What I find interesting is that Balsillie's offer to buy the Coyotes is contingent not only on moving the team to Hamilton, ON but also that he not pay compensation to the Maple Leafs for encroaching on their 80 km territorial rights, as is stipulated in the NHL bylaws (see story at the following link below)

http://www.faceoff.com/hockey/teams/toront...2e-773498f102da

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Ultimately I think Balsillie is going to fail again, but he's going to make an absolute mess out of this situation before it is all said and done with. The court isn't going to just walk away from $212.5 million or whatever the offer is, but, as already mentioned, they can't very well force the NHL to move the team out of Arizona, much less to a different country, or so one would think. I think perhaps the biggest factor in how this will play out is NHL lawyers versus Balsillie lawyers: who has the deepest pockets? I can imagine a scenario where Balsillie will agree to keep the team in PHX for n number of years, and if he can't turn things around, the league will allow him to move the team. But seeing how much a jerk (for lack of a better term) he has been to the league, I can also just as easily imagine he'll let the Coyotes rot until he can move the team.

but you have to remember this also get's into all sorts of anti-trust laws also. the bankruptcy i think is to get out of the $400mil that would be owed Phoenix, if he had to pay that then their would be no deal. from a legal perspective it will be one to watch to see just how much power the NHL can exert on who can and can't be an owner as well as what they can do with their franchise. on the outside this looks like just Buttman and Balsillie slapping each other but other owner's may not like the league having that much of a say in what they do, if i am PK do i really want the league to tell me where i can and can't locate to? as an owner that should be ultimately my decision.

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The judge granted lawyers for the NHL and Coyotes owner Jerry Moyes time to work out a schedule

All in about a minute.

Court is in recess.

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but you have to remember this also get's into all sorts of anti-trust laws also. the bankruptcy i think is to get out of the $400mil that would be owed Phoenix, if he had to pay that then their would be no deal. from a legal perspective it will be one to watch to see just how much power the NHL can exert on who can and can't be an owner as well as what they can do with their franchise. on the outside this looks like just Buttman and Balsillie slapping each other but other owner's may not like the league having that much of a say in what they do, if i am PK do i really want the league to tell me where i can and can't locate to? as an owner that should be ultimately my decision.

On the other hand though owners care about the league as a whole. If someone starts running a team into the ground or wants to move somewhere unrealistic it hurts the value of everyone's teams. To me for an owner it is a question of who is driving the restrictions, the commissioner or the Board of Governors. If they have some say in who moves where they are more likely to be OK with it, if its just Bettman doing his thing then they might put up a fight. Additionally the owners care about their own territorial rights. You can bet that Karmanos would want the league to keep someone from moving to Charlotte, not that anyone would though. So its not as open and shut for the owners as the league just keeping them from doing what they want.

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My best guess is that this whole thing will be dismissed, the league will take over the team, and it stays in Phoenix with a renegotiated lease. If what they said about the NHL gaining control when they propped up the team during the season is true - and it seems to be if they can just automatically depose the owner - Balsillie is going to come out of this looking like an idiot, except maybe to those in Southern Ontario. It makes sense that the last thing the NHL would want is for a team to go bankrupt, and this is looking more and more like just another blatant attempt at an end run on the NHL. He doesn't seem to have figured out that if the NHL doesn't want him as an owner, there's not much he can do about it. Another egotistical gazillionaire causing grief for no go reason except to feed the ego. I'm no big fan of Bettman, but I don't see him as the bad guy in this.

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I thought Nashville was Balsillie's only previous attempt at grabbing a team, am I missing something else?

Bettman will paint the NHL green with his mouth so long as he's commish, regardless of the truth, so what he says is already out the window and into the trash. But, afaik, we were only once talking about Nashville, and now Phoenix - no offense to them or their fans, but not exactly models for success. Unless I'm missing something, I wouldn't exactly consider that to be "many" opportunities for Balsillie.

The future looks really bleak for Yote fans, but I do think Canada should get that team if they can't stay in place. Despite the fact that metro NYC has more than twice the population of metro Toronto, I have no doubt they could support another team. It's at least fair to say that they would support it better than Phoenix could.

colliefan: for what it's worth and from what I can tell reading different numbers, the Hamilton area and RDU have comparable populations. Of course, I'm sure Hamilton is already loaded with Leaf fans, but if the Triangle can support a team as well as it has, certainly Hamilton can. Beyond that, it's Canada and although I'm not absolutely certain, I do think they like hockey.

He tried to Purchase the Pens as well, which was also a huge media frenzy. And I believe he was interested in Atlanta as well, but talks never went far.

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We need exposure and since we cant get exposure through national TV we need to keep teams in the US and expose people that way if this leagues ever gonna fully take off.

But this has been the swan song of Gary Bettman for the past 15 years.

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My best guess is that this whole thing will be dismissed, the league will take over the team, and it stays in Phoenix with a renegotiated lease. If what they said about the NHL gaining control when they propped up the team during the season is true - and it seems to be if they can just automatically depose the owner - Balsillie is going to come out of this looking like an idiot, except maybe to those in Southern Ontario. It makes sense that the last thing the NHL would want is for a team to go bankrupt, and this is looking more and more like just another blatant attempt at an end run on the NHL. He doesn't seem to have figured out that if the NHL doesn't want him as an owner, there's not much he can do about it. Another egotistical gazillionaire causing grief for no go reason except to feed the ego. I'm no big fan of Bettman, but I don't see him as the bad guy in this.

Well the story coming out is that the Yotes have been financially under control by the NHL for the past year or so already. So if the Moyes filed for bankruptcy then there's nothing the NHL could really do to help the franchise if they wanted too. The ultimate issue here is over what direction the NHL will take in the future. The new CBA has saved a lot of franchises from losing money (including teams like Montreal), but at the same time it's turned the league into a gate-driven organisation as well. There are simply too many things tied into league revenue now, player salaries, team revenue, the economy, fan income. ATM the NHL is a far cry from any national TV contract and the economic downturn hasn't even made its hardest mark on the salary cap yet. IOW the NHL is going to continue to be a gate-driven league for quite some time longer (if not forever), and the only way to generate revenue is, well, at the ticket gates. Generating new hockey fans in Phoenix that put out an average of 12 000 a game makes less financial sense than having the same franchise in a city that can average 18 000-19 000. It has less to do with the love of the game and entitlement than it has to do with business sense and direction.....If you believe the NHL can still sustain a national tv contract in America (which Bettman strongly believes) then Balsillie's efforts are seen counter productive to the leagues benefit...But if you believe that the NHL will never get that tv contract then Balsillie's efforts appear much more appealing.

I don't expect many people in hear to view Balsillie's actions as acceptable because most Canes fans are probably thinking "That could be us"

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On the other hand though owners care about the league as a whole. If someone starts running a team into the ground or wants to move somewhere unrealistic it hurts the value of everyone's teams. To me for an owner it is a question of who is driving the restrictions, the commissioner or the Board of Governors. If they have some say in who moves where they are more likely to be OK with it, if its just Bettman doing his thing then they might put up a fight. Additionally the owners care about their own territorial rights. You can bet that Karmanos would want the league to keep someone from moving to Charlotte, not that anyone would though. So its not as open and shut for the owners as the league just keeping them from doing what they want.

Not saying it is but if I am an owner I wouldn't want to give Buttman too much control.

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Well the story coming out is that the Yotes have been financially under control by the NHL for the past year or so already. So if the Moyes filed for bankruptcy then there's nothing the NHL could really do to help the franchise if they wanted too. The ultimate issue here is over what direction the NHL will take in the future. The new CBA has saved a lot of franchises from losing money (including teams like Montreal), but at the same time it's turned the league into a gate-driven organisation as well. There are simply too many things tied into league revenue now, player salaries, team revenue, the economy, fan income. ATM the NHL is a far cry from any national TV contract and the economic downturn hasn't even made its hardest mark on the salary cap yet. IOW the NHL is going to continue to be a gate-driven league for quite some time longer (if not forever), and the only way to generate revenue is, well, at the ticket gates. Generating new hockey fans in Phoenix that put out an average of 12 000 a game makes less financial sense than having the same franchise in a city that can average 18 000-19 000. It has less to do with the love of the game and entitlement than it has to do with business sense and direction.....If you believe the NHL can still sustain a national tv contract in America (which Bettman strongly believes) then Balsillie's efforts are seen counter productive to the leagues benefit...But if you believe that the NHL will never get that tv contract then Balsillie's efforts appear much more appealing.

I don't expect many people in hear to view Balsillie's actions as acceptable because most Canes fans are probably thinking "That could be us"

I am actually with you on this, if he as the pockets to buy the team and the net effect drives up team values then as an owner that is a good thing. I don't think we will have a decent TV contract as long as Buttman is running the show, he has shown all to often that he IS NOT a marketing genius. If the owners want a big TV contract then they need someone that can make that happen, until then it is all gate driven and if Hamilton will sell out every game and Phoenix won't then so be it. Yes it could be us but if PK keeps promoting the team the way he has then that is not likely anytime soon.

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How many hockey fans do you think each city minus Minnesota had prior to a franchise going there, expecially here in Carolina.

Your basically preaching the Gary Bettman expansion theory. Bettman thought by expanding it would be this magical pill that would make the NHL primetime. It didn't happen.

I see what your saying that you want the NHL to be a prime time sport in the U.S. and flourish like it does in Canada. Me too, but in the U.S. where the NFL is the king, MLB is the past time, and the NBA is always on primetime on ESPN, where does that leave hockey?

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All this talk has me thinking. As sick and tired as I am of the "Ovie this, Crosby that, OMG it's Ovie versus Crosby everyone get your microscopes" media talk, some unimaginable story with "household name" players could be enough to spike interest in the game in the blink of an eye. Messier comes to mind.

I hate that NBC only shows regular season games if ____ is playing, but I know why that is. I'm torn between watching (under the assumption that TW can report what I'm watching to Nielsen) and not watching just because I feel like it wouldn't make any difference. Bleh. As much as I'd like for the NHL to get a big time national TV contract, I like it more that our sport isn't riddled with slews of bandwagon fans who know nothing about the sport they are watching (like you more often notice with the other big three sports).

edit: I hope those giant bangs of thunder I just heard wake up the Bruins keke :lol:

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Another possible reason why the NHL continues to fail in grasping a national tv contract is because the NHL has never really been about hype, while hype is something national broadcasting station like NBC thrive off of. Hockey coverage has always been very basic: broadcast a simple skybox view of the game, pan left and right, interview a couple players at intermission, a little graphic scoreboard at the time and a commentator who provides nothing more then basic play-by-play. Any attempt to hype up hockey coverage in the past has been met with dismal acceptance from the traditional fan base, the fox puck was a bust, animated scoreboards were a bust, marketing player rivalries have been a bust, flashy all-star games have been a bust, even the alternative 'behind-the-net' camera angle during PPs has seen dismal reception.

To draw a comparison, think of the NFL and how hype operates there. The Superbowl itself is a hype machine. A couple years ago NBC spent some outrageous amount of money to give a panoramic shot of the game. The first down line was a hit, so is almost any new broadcasting feature added. The game on the field stays relatively the same, but it's presentation through the tv is always being hyped with new features. Such a strategy just doesn't seem to work in the NHL.

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Well the story coming out is that the Yotes have been financially under control by the NHL for the past year or so already. So if the Moyes filed for bankruptcy then there's nothing the NHL could really do to help the franchise if they wanted too. The ultimate issue here is over what direction the NHL will take in the future.

This brings up the long term issue, but I'm really just referring to this case. Balsillie's working for his own best interest, not the league's. He wants the ego stroke of thousands of Canadians referring to him as a god (http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puck_daddy/post/Winnipeg-fan-smiles-at-the-demise-of-Coyotes-Be;_ylt=Au2oofLeksQ_iFe6pyV.Hk5_ppJ4?urn=nhl,161957' target="_blank">yes, really - at least one[/post]). His odds of getting away with this are near zero.

The new CBA has saved a lot of franchises from losing money (including teams like Montreal), but at the same time it's turned the league into a gate-driven organisation as well. There are simply too many things tied into league revenue now, player salaries, team revenue, the economy, fan income. ATM the NHL is a far cry from any national TV contract and the economic downturn hasn't even made its hardest mark on the salary cap yet. IOW the NHL is going to continue to be a gate-driven league for quite some time longer (if not forever), and the only way to generate revenue is, well, at the ticket gates. Generating new hockey fans in Phoenix that put out an average of 12 000 a game makes less financial sense than having the same franchise in a city that can average 18 000-19 000. It has less to do with the love of the game and entitlement than it has to do with business sense and direction.....If you believe the NHL can still sustain a national tv contract in America (which Bettman strongly believes) then Balsillie's efforts are seen counter productive to the leagues benefit...But if you believe that the NHL will never get that tv contract then Balsillie's efforts appear much more appealing.

I guess I'm looking at this more from a regular guy/hockey fan perspective, not from a what's best for the league perspective. What's best for the league is a moot argument here, there are many other considerations than simply revenue generation. The owners decide this, and Bettman serves at the will of the owners. I don't disagree with most of your statement, except that Balsillie's efforts are definitely not appealing - the ends don't justify the means.

I don't expect many people in hear to view Balsillie's actions as acceptable because most Canes fans are probably thinking "That could be us"

I doubt many, if any, Canes fans are thinking that. While the Canes only break even/profit if they get half way through the second round, they don't lose a huge amount if they don't get that far. When the time comes to renegotiate the lease or build a new stadium, the politicians in this state are well experienced at throwing tax breaks and credits at mega-millionaires to bring/keep their businesses here, so I'm just not worried about that. ;)

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Another possible reason why the NHL continues to fail in grasping a national tv contract is because the NHL has never really been about hype, while hype is something national broadcasting station like NBC thrive off of. Hockey coverage has always been very basic: broadcast a simple skybox view of the game, pan left and right, interview a couple players at intermission, a little graphic scoreboard at the time and a commentator who provides nothing more then basic play-by-play. Any attempt to hype up hockey coverage in the past has been met with dismal acceptance from the traditional fan base, the fox puck was a bust, animated scoreboards were a bust, marketing player rivalries have been a bust, flashy all-star games have been a bust, even the alternative 'behind-the-net' camera angle during PPs has seen dismal reception.

To draw a comparison, think of the NFL and how hype operates there. The Superbowl itself is a hype machine. A couple years ago NBC spent some outrageous amount of money to give a panoramic shot of the game. The first down line was a hit, so is almost any new broadcasting feature added. The game on the field stays relatively the same, but it's presentation through the tv is always being hyped with new features. Such a strategy just doesn't seem to work in the NHL.

But the NHL does have something similar to that and it is believed to have a similar wow factor. The occasionally pan the arena to see if Buttman is their!! LOL I won't even get into the Ovie/Crosby lovefest!!

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