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What do you think is the Teams main problem/problems are so far this year?

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[quote name='coastal_caniac wrote:


caniac-97 wrote:

coastal_caniac']Well, that's easy to sit there and say, but to play devil's advocate, many of "those" members wanted top line scoring talent, not role playing, aging veterans.  So, to just make a general statement that they wanted to "spend to the cap and quit being cheap" really doesn't reflect many of their wishes, IMO. 

  

well given that JR doesn't read the board and sign players we want the only thing we can expect is that he spend to the cap and get what he perceives as the right talent.  Just didn't work out that way.

Not really understanding how this response has anything to do with you calling out the board for wanting to spend above the self-imposed cap, or the thread topic in general for that matter.  But whatever.  It's painfully obvious things haven't worked out.

  not really calling out the board, it isn't how much money you spend as it is finding the "right" players to fit in.  Someone somewhere needs to figure out what system will allow us to be successful repeatedly (ask Detroit).  Then get the talent (both young and old) to do the job.  The jury is out on JR at this point of the season.

When they inked this CBA it was said in the trades that the GM would become the new MVP of the team.  That a wise GM would be able to work within the system and assemble the right talent.  That it would no longer be up to having a high dollar sniper and hot goalie.  We are experiencing that now but for those that know me "yes it is Mo's fault".

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I don't want to repeat the problems with this team that everyone else has already mentioned, but I guess it is what it is...To old, lack of speed, lack of scoring touch, etc...Too many issues that need to be fixed in order to be successful this year.

One comment I have is that I think part of the problem has been that the the Canes haven't drafted that well over the long term to continually re-stock the team with talent.  The Canes prospects are alwasy rated among the worst in the NHL year after year by the NHL publications.  Although there appears to be some talent coming up, the only real draft picks that have made it over last five years or so has been Staal and Ward.  It looks like Sutter will turn out to be a good player, so you can add him to the list. In order for the team to be successful over the long term, they need to draft well.  The Canes have had too many 1st round picks not pan out, and I don't really remember any players besides Cole that have been drafted in later rounds contribute to the team.  In my opinion, this has led to the problems.  Due to the teams self imposed "cap", they don't have the money available to sign the big time free agent goal scorers.  That is why JR need to take fliers on waiver players and cheaper alternatives.   

Hopefully, some of the hyped players in the Canes system will make an impact in the near future.

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I don't think that our drafting has been a major issue.  Might as well count Tuomo as one of our drafts...in a weird way.  Andrew Ladd, our draftee was traded away for him.  Therefore, you might as well count Timmy Gleason as our draftee too, because of the JJ fiasco, and that wasn't our fault.  Cam Ward....nuff said.  Staal?  Well, he is good when he is healthy and surrounded with effort.  Brandon Sutter, Zach Boychuk, Philipe Paride..<sp....they're coming along, and so far look very good.

Our draft picks by JR have been well thought out and executed.  Maybe too well, as some of our draftees have priced their way out of our organization because they were so good that we couldn't afford to keep them all, and had to trade out for similar players at lower prices from other teams.  This goes back to the long terms and NTCs offered after the Stanley Cup win in 06.  That win cost us Ladd.  We have had some bad luck with a pick (JJ), that whole fiasco I don't want to get into, but we got Timmy out of it.

The draft is not our problem, we are drafting great players.  Being financially able to keep them here is one issue, the other is that we are a non-traditional market, and some players don't want to play here.  When Mario Lemieux was drafted by the Pittburgh Penguins, he initially refused to go up to the front and put on the jersey, he was totally disgusted.  He wanted to play for the Oilers and to be paired with Gretzky...didn't happen.  The good thing for Pittburgh, was that the team built around him, and he created a dynasty. A dynasty which has some familiar names to Canes fans:  Tommy Barrasso, Ron  Francis.  I know there are a lot of Pens haters on here, but how they got their humble beginnings to greatness is a cool story, one to learn from.  They got the fans to embrace someone that didn't want to be there, and by the time that first season was over, Super Mario was a Pittsburghian forever......heck, he even bought the team and returned it to greatness (with some help from the NHL after the lockout). 

Main point:  we need to strategize and prioritize contracts in anticipation of the potential greatness of our players that we draft.  Older players need to be scrutinized more carefully, and when their points start falling off the chart, they should fall off the roster to be replaced by those good draft picks that we have made.  If the picks don't work out, you trade and get players like Ruutu and Gleason.  Now, our later round draft picks could use some help, because that is where we suffer.  We will continue to suffer there because we can't afford a massive scouting program like some of the bigger teams are able to put out there.  How do you fix that?  Go to the games and help grow the fan base....its the only way.  More fans, more merchandise sales, allow the team to create other incentives for good players that we find to stay that don't affect the cap.

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How shall I compare thee?

The pentultimate Canes team was the Cup Team. Unlike last year's team, that team was not a fluke that just figured out the new rules faster than the rest of the league. Sure that helped but that team was stocked with speed and legitimate scorers. The bottom line is that JR has steadily and constantly let proven scoring go and has never replaced it. He has tried to recycle it, time and time again, but ended up picking up guys who are on the downside of their careers, or have shown an inability to consistently produce actual points. This team has no offense. And amazingly, even with "defensive" hockey, has no defense either.

Cup Team scoring lost:

Recci: admittedly a rental, but still lost with no replacement.

Weight: see Recci

Cullen. Then got him back.

Stillman: Essentially for Eaves, though did get Corvo. Eaves gone for nothing. Corvo, mixed bag, not enough to replace Stillman's 06 production.

Williams: 30+ goals. Ultimately brought the new and unimproved Cole back.

Cole: taken out by neck injury never to return. Oh, well not really never. Never the same though.Another 30+ goal guy gone (his old self).

Brind'Amour: Selke winner, who also put up 31 goals and 68 points cup year. LOST to age. No replacement. The biggest single problem.

Cole: did bring in Pitkanen, a good move.

Babchuk*: 15 goals in a short time. Lost to Russia for no real good reason. Ultimately replaced by Alberts/Ward take your pick.

Chad LaRose couldn't crack the third line on that team. Peaked last year, in an apparent fluke for a career 4th liner. At best another complimentary guy who can pot a few scrappy goals from the offense created by other guys, guys who are not currently creating those scraps.

*Not on cup team, but worth mentioning in the "lost scoring never replaced" theme.

We did pick up a couple of puck moving dmen in Pitkanen (a good move) and Corvo (probably good). But we let Babchuk go, when the bottom line is that even with a raise he would have been cheap and not much more of a defensive liability than A.Ward, who is the king of always skating back.

We did pick up Ruutu for Ladd, and that has worked out well, but remember Ladd was a top first round pick.

The only two constant legitimately top offensive producers are Staal and Whitney. Were in not for them, we would have hit bottom a lot sooner. But alas, while Whitney is still bringing it, his career is aging out and he is the quintessential tradable at the deadline piece.

Otherwise we have picked up players off the scrap heap or recycled failing players: Samsonov, Jokinen, Cole, or promoted former 4th liners: LaRose. The bottom line is that this team is simply not very good. Last year was somewhat of a fluke (team got hot at the right time and a hot goalie), and time has taken care of the rest.

And Babchuk/Siedenberg for Ward/Alberts has not helped. (I like Alberts, but we gained nothing offensively).

Basically and somewhat understandably JR has tried to build around the edges of a team that won the cup, but many moves have ultimately resulted in a team that has no ability to regularly sustain an NHL offense, let alone an elite offense. Despite claims to the contrary this is the new NHL and trapping, physically intimidating teams do not make deep playoff runs. Our team has devolved from a legitimate high powered offensive team, loaded with legitimate scorers to a team of largely mid-level talent and worse. Last year's run was an anomaly perhaps the last great groan of the shadow of the cup team. It is now dead. That's the reality.

There is no more tinkering to be done. We have tinkered our way into this. It is full on rebuild time. Now, the reality is that we may have to wait for optimal rebuilding conditions in late December. We have to rebuild intelligently. But that rebuild is coming.

If JR is able to deal with Brind'Amour and lose salary in favor of bringing up (cheap) youth, he ought to be able to buy one top level scoring forward on the market. Combine that with the youth, Staal, C.Ward and a few selected core players (Ruutu, Gleason, Pitkanen) and some new midlevel complimentary players and this team could have an impressive turnaround.

For the next month we are just biding our time. In an odd way the worse it gets the better. One thing for sure. This team is not capable of the kind of insane run needed for the playoffs. So the key words are: top draft pick.

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How shall I compare thee?

The pentultimate Canes team was the Cup Team. Unlike last year's team, that team was not a fluke that just figured out the new rules faster than the rest of the league. Sure that helped but that team was stocked with speed and legitimate scorers. The bottom line is that JR has steadily and constantly let proven scoring go and has never replaced it. He has tried to recycle it, time and time again, but ended up picking up guys who are on the downside of their careers, or have shown an inability to consistently produce actual points. This team has no offense. And amazingly, even with "defensive" hockey, has no defense either.

Cup Team scoring lost:

Recci: admittedly a rental, but still lost with no replacement.

Weight: see Recci

Cullen. Then got him back.

Stillman: Essentially for Eaves, though did get Corvo. Eaves gone for nothing. Corvo, mixed bag, not enough to replace Stillman's 06 production.

Williams: 30+ goals. Ultimately brought the new and unimproved Cole back.

Cole: taken out by neck injury never to return. Oh, well not really never. Never the same though.Another 30+ goal guy gone (his old self).

Brind'Amour: Selke winner, who also put up 31 goals and 68 points cup year. LOST to age. No replacement. The biggest single problem.

Cole: did bring in Pitkanen, a good move.

Babchuk*: 15 goals in a short time. Lost to Russia for no real good reason. Ultimately replaced by Alberts/Ward take your pick.

Chad LaRose couldn't crack the third line on that team. Peaked last year, in an apparent fluke for a career 4th liner. At best another complimentary guy who can pot a few scrappy goals from the offense created by other guys, guys who are not currently creating those scraps.

*Not on cup team, but worth mentioning in the "lost scoring never replaced" theme.

We did pick up a couple of puck moving dmen in Pitkanen (a good move) and Corvo (probably good). But we let Babchuk go, when the bottom line is that even with a raise he would have been cheap and not much more of a defensive liability than A.Ward, who is the king of always skating back.

We did pick up Ruutu for Ladd, and that has worked out well, but remember Ladd was a top first round pick.

The only two constant legitimately top offensive producers are Staal and Whitney. Were in not for them, we would have hit bottom a lot sooner. But alas, while Whitney is still bringing it, his career is aging out and he is the quintessential tradable at the deadline piece.

Otherwise we have picked up players off the scrap heap or recycled failing players: Samsonov, Jokinen, Cole, or promoted former 4th liners: LaRose. The bottom line is that this team is simply not very good. Last year was somewhat of a fluke (team got hot at the right time and a hot goalie), and time has taken care of the rest.

And Babchuk/Siedenberg for Ward/Alberts has not helped. (I like Alberts, but we gained nothing offensively).

Basically and somewhat understandably JR has tried to build around the edges of a team that won the cup, but many moves have ultimately resulted in a team that has no ability to regularly sustain an NHL offense, let alone an elite offense. Despite claims to the contrary this is the new NHL and trapping, physically intimidating teams do not make deep playoff runs. Our team has devolved from a legitimate high powered offensive team, loaded with legitimate scorers to a team of largely mid-level talent and worse. Last year's run was an anomaly perhaps the last great groan of the shadow of the cup team. It is now dead. That's the reality.

There is no more tinkering to be done. We have tinkered our way into this. It is full on rebuild time. Now, the reality is that we may have to wait for optimal rebuilding conditions in late December. We have to rebuild intelligently. But that rebuild is coming.

If JR is able to deal with Brind'Amour and lose salary in favor of bringing up (cheap) youth, he ought to be able to buy one top level scoring forward on the market. Combine that with the youth, Staal, C.Ward and a few selected core players (Ruutu, Gleason, Pitkanen) and some new midlevel complimentary players and this team could have an impressive turnaround.

For the next month we are just biding our time. In an odd way the worse it gets the better. One thing for sure. This team is not capable of the kind of insane run needed for the playoffs. So the key words are: top draft pick.

In other words.... let's get this season over, and is it time for baseball yet? Taylor Hall or Tyler Seguin?

  

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Last year's run was an anomaly perhaps the last great groan of the shadow of the cup team. It is now dead. That's the reality. 

Good post remkin, but the above statement is the harsh truth.  I thought the team overachieved in the playoffs (and this isn't hindsight, I posted as much after the playoffs were over) however I didn't think the falloff would be this bad.  I think the team is underachieving this year to the extent that it overachieved last year.  How J.R. goes from here will be the key.

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[quote name='shauniac79 wrote:


remkin']How shall I compare thee?

The pentultimate Canes team was the Cup Team. Unlike last year's team, that team was not a fluke that just figured out the new rules faster than the rest of the league. Sure that helped but that team was stocked with speed and legitimate scorers.
The bottom line is that JR has steadily and constantly let proven scoring go and has never replaced it.
He has tried to recycle it, time and time again, but ended up picking up guys who are on the downside of their careers, or have shown an inability to consistently produce actual points. This team has no offense. And amazingly, even with "defensive" hockey, has no defense either.

Cup Team scoring lost:

Recci: admittedly a rental, but still lost with no replacement.

Weight: see Recci

Cullen. Then got him back.

Stillman: Essentially for Eaves, though did get Corvo. Eaves gone for nothing. Corvo, mixed bag, not enough to replace Stillman's 06 production.

Williams: 30+ goals. Ultimately brought the new and unimproved Cole back.

Cole: taken out by neck injury never to return. Oh, well not really never. Never the same though.Another 30+ goal guy gone (his old self).

Brind'Amour: Selke winner, who also put up 31 goals and 68 points cup year. LOST to age. No replacement. The biggest single problem.

Cole: did bring in Pitkanen, a good move.

Babchuk*: 15 goals in a short time. Lost to Russia for no real good reason. Ultimately replaced by Alberts/Ward take your pick.

Chad LaRose couldn't crack the third line on that team. Peaked last year, in an apparent fluke for a career 4th liner. At best another complimentary guy who can pot a few scrappy goals from the offense created by other guys, guys who are not currently creating those scraps.

*Not on cup team, but worth mentioning in the "lost scoring never replaced" theme.

We did pick up a couple of puck moving dmen in Pitkanen (a good move) and Corvo (probably good). But we let Babchuk go, when the bottom line is that even with a raise he would have been cheap and not much more of a defensive liability than A.Ward, who is the king of always skating back.

We did pick up Ruutu for Ladd, and that has worked out well, but remember Ladd was a top first round pick.

The only two constant legitimately top offensive producers are Staal and Whitney. Were in not for them, we would have hit bottom a lot sooner. But alas, while Whitney is still bringing it, his career is aging out and he is the quintessential tradable at the deadline piece.

Otherwise we have picked up players off the scrap heap or recycled failing players: Samsonov, Jokinen, Cole, or promoted former 4th liners: LaRose. The bottom line is that this team is simply not very good. Last year was somewhat of a fluke (team got hot at the right time and a hot goalie), and time has taken care of the rest.

And Babchuk/Siedenberg for Ward/Alberts has not helped. (I like Alberts, but we gained nothing offensively).

Basically and somewhat understandably JR has tried to build around the edges of a team that won the cup, but many moves have ultimately resulted in a team that has no ability to regularly sustain an NHL offense, let alone an elite offense. Despite claims to the contrary this
is
the new NHL and trapping, physically intimidating teams do not make deep playoff runs. Our team has devolved from a legitimate high powered offensive team, loaded with legitimate scorers to a team of largely mid-level talent and worse. Last year's run was an anomaly perhaps the last great groan of the shadow of the cup team. It is now dead. That's the reality.

There is no more tinkering to be done. We have tinkered our way into this. It is full on rebuild time. Now, the reality is that we may have to wait for optimal rebuilding conditions in late December. We have to rebuild intelligently. But that rebuild is coming.

If JR is able to deal with Brind'Amour and lose salary in favor of bringing up (cheap) youth, he ought to be able to buy one top level scoring forward on the market. Combine that with the youth, Staal, C.Ward and a few selected core players (Ruutu, Gleason, Pitkanen) and some new midlevel complimentary players and this team could have an impressive turnaround.

For the next month we are just biding our time. In an odd way the worse it gets the better. One thing for sure. This team is not capable of the kind of insane run needed for the playoffs. So the key words are: top draft pick.

In other words.... let's get this season over, and is it time for baseball yet? Taylor Hall or Tyler Seguin?

  I do think that in terms of the playoffs we are done. Still, this season could get interesting at some point. Particularly if we are able to bring up the youths (Boychuk is ready right now, just as Sutter was). We probably won't be able to get that top winger this year since at the deadline that's what will be in demand, but we could get some young speed in here and with Staal and Ward and some decent complementary players at least look good from time to time. This next month might be pretty ugly though. On the other hand, it truly can't get much worse than it currently is, and with December's schedule expectations are pretty low. Maybe they'll surprise us.

Then, next year pick up the top free agent winger and hopefully the top draft pick.

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Then, next year pick up the top free agent winger and hopefully the top draft pick.

here's an idea, how bout we trade Staal in the offseason to Chicago for Hossa, then pick up the #1 or #2 draft pick, first line problems solved right?

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Then, next year pick up the top free agent winger and hopefully the top draft pick.

here's an idea, how bout we trade Staal in the offseason to Chicago for Hossa, then pick up the #1 or #2 draft pick, first line problems solved right?

Uh....no.

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[quote name='super-dave-1 wrote:


shauniac79']
Then, next year pick up the top free agent winger and hopefully the top draft pick.

here's an idea, how bout we trade Staal in the offseason to Chicago for Hossa, then pick up the #1 or #2 draft pick, first line problems solved right?

Uh....no.

Oh ...no no no. It would be just our luck to finally get a winger for Staal and end up without Staal

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Then, next year pick up the top free agent winger and hopefully the top draft pick.

here's an idea, how bout we trade Staal in the offseason to Chicago for Hossa, then pick up the #1 or #2 draft pick, first line problems solved right?

I was only kidding anyways. I would want more in return for Staal. And no Hossa is definatley not the answer to this team.. we need young guns like Kopitar, Carter, etc.

  

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[quote name='shauniac79 wrote:


shauniac79']
Then, next year pick up the top free agent winger and hopefully the top draft pick.

here's an idea, how bout we trade Staal in the offseason to Chicago for Hossa, then pick up the #1 or #2 draft pick, first line problems solved right?

I was only kidding anyways. I would want more in return for Staal. And no Hossa is definatley not the answer to this team.. we need young guns like Kopitar, Carter, etc.

  

Hossa would be just another old veteran and do we really need another one of those?  Staal will be here for a while, most of the folks that want to dump him forget that just like Cam, Sutter, and Boychuk these guys are really young.  Two years from now we will all be amazed with how these guys will mature, they are no where near where they will be then.

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...and didn't Hossa sign some insane contract for a bazillion dollars for 50 years?  I may be exagerating but you get the picture. 
12-year, $62.8 million contract with the Chicago Blackhawks.  Thats gonna happen in Carolina

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Nay to Hossa. What do we do? We execute on our current plan, which includes rebuilding after taking a final run. If the final run ends (ended?) early, you start rebuilding. Hossa doesn't fit that plan.

What do "we" do, where we=fans? Unfortunately we cope with reality, where in-season transition will mean near term pain. If the team is transformed and on the rise by late season, it'll be worth it. However, December (at least) will be very tough on us all.

That plan means every (beloved) player not in our future plan must go! Get the maximum FUTURE value for what has no future "Canes" value. In short, if your age starts with "3" then you're available. Of value elsewhere are Whitney, Corvo, Samsonov, Cole, and Cullen. Anything you can get for the others in that age group is gravy.

Ice time goes to the future, who must NOT be part of any trade. Staal, Ward, Ruutu, Jokinen, Larose, Sutter, Gleason, Alberts, Pitkanen. The new Canes get built on these nine, starting later this season.

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MOST INFURIATING GROUP OF ATHELETES I HAVE EVER PULLED FOR                WHAT PITIFUL A

ABILITY TO MAN UP IN SITUATIONS CALLING FOR JUST THAT ITS LIKE GIVING UP A 99 YARD TOUCHDOWN ON FOURTH AND THIRTY EVERY NIGHT

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Thee is only one problem that is directly correlated to the teams lack of success...THE COACH.  He should never have been rehired and all of the apologists need to wake up and face reality.  He sucked here for years and he sucked in Toronto.  That is why he was stuck in the replay booth in Toronto and not hired again to coach in the NHL.  He sucks as a coach, bottom line.  If he isn't feeling the heat yet then he never will.  Nobody coaches a team into ablivion this long and keeps their job.  Fire him!

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And the sad part of all this...somewhere Lavi and Babchuk are laughing their butts off.
Don't forget Seids, Eaves and anyone else who got off the train before it pulled out of the "Start of season station"

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