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jeromeo87

Defensive Rant..

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Granted, Pitkanen has looked "off" since the olympics. But if you're throwing him under the bus, make room down there for Staal too. Staal "cruised" last night as well. Pouted a few times, played "Kareem Abdul Jabaar" defense on more than one occasion, etc.

Other than the last few games, Pitkanen is the best defenseman on this team, on both ends of the rink. Rutherford made a great deal in acquiring him. He's the defenseman Rutherford has been searching for for years. And I think he'll remain a Cane for a long time. There's absolutely no good reason to even suggest getting rid of him at this point.

Have you been watching the games? Picard has stunk....STUNK since being brought here. Why would you suggest bringing him back, and canning Pits? Pothier had two really good game, and then the wheels fell off. He's got 13 more games to impress me. I think Rutherford will acquire one more veteran defenseman this summer, and go with 3 vets and 3 Rats.

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I agree with the Pitkanen thing, not the Cole trading ;-P. I think he's a pretty lazy player and I don't think he's about to change that work ethic problem. I do think we will acquire a good defensive mind in the summer with all our assets and cap range. I'd like to see McBain in a game where he's actually practiced with the team.

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I have to agree with The Big Kahuna on this one. I distinctly remember watching Joni go from one end of the ice last night and pass, yes I said PASS Staal. If that is lazy for Joni, then I really don't want to know what Staal's issue is called.

The one 5 on 3 we had against the Coyotes, Staal stood at the blue line and let the puck leave the zone. He made no attempt to try and keep the zone. I see Eric Staal stand a lot on the ice and not put forth an effort. If this isn't lazy, then I don't know what is. Although a blowtorch with his name on it comes to mind.

I see Staal pout a lot and not put forth the effort he put forth for Team Canada. If he doesn't want to play consistently night in and night out, then I say find him another team. I don't care if we lost a game if he plays consistently, I'd be happy with him, and back him up, but Staal has been this way since after we won the Cup. Unfortunately, I don't see a change in site for him. Staal skates when he wants to, and plays when he wants to, regardless of what the team needs.

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IMO Joni does more things on the" down side" than the "up side". As good as he is on the offensive side he is much worse on the defensive side. He seems like there are times when he wants to play but they seem to be few and far between. I know I will take a beating for this but that's ok.I did it with Kabs and finally he is gone. People have to take their emotions out of it and look at where his game is(overall).Yes maybe he is a nice guy and maybe his family likes it here but that's not why he is here.He is here as a DEFENSE MAN with and offensive boost to the team,NOT the other way around.Plus he may be able to bring us someone that is strong on the blue-line, and save us some money too.

Just MY Opinionpimp.gif

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If Pitkanen is lazy, what does that make Staal...who is also tall and takes long slow strides when skating?

*shakes head

god thank you!

Staal acts like a child... pouts when things don't go his way, and stands around a whole lot.  Pitkanen is A BIG GUY so he has a BIG stride but he gets down the ice quickly.  He also has a pretty darn good shot when he takes one at the net. thumbsup.gif

I think Pitkanen will be here for a long while.

  

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I may sound like a Joni apologist here, but keep in mind he has averaged nearly 4:00 more TOI per game this year than any other year, and averaged more than any other player in the league!   I haven't seen the Olympic statistics, but considering Finland made it to the Bronze Medal game, and they had little depth at defense, I would be willing to bet he was close to the top in total TOI there too.

All season long he was saddled with an inept pylon in Aaron Ward.  Now much of the time he has to play with a bunch of AHL kids.  It has been a mentally draining year too, I am sure, with all the ups and downs.  The guy is probably just tired as hell.

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Guys- you realize that if Joni Pitkaten (avg. ice time against Boston 27 minutes) played with the energy of, say, Picard (TOI, 15 minutes) starting at the begining of this season, then he would have been dead by thanksgiving? Honestly, its not that hes lazy, its that he knows he has to conserve energy- you dont go full tilt every shift if you have to play 15 more that night. I understand that last night was upsetting, but blaming Pitkaten is blaming the wrong guy. We traded all but two of our defenders that started the year with us! Last night, they played like a D-Corp. that had only played a couple of games together, which is true! Just because Pitkaten conserves energy and is our #1 d-man does not mean he is lazy

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I think you guys just don't realize how good Pitkanen is. This team wouldn't have been able to make a push at all for the playoffs with Pitkanen. He was the reason every night this year we don't get blown out. Pitkanen is a top 10 defense man in this league, easily. Everyone thinks he skates so casually, but that's how he skates. He is such an amazing skater that he can sprint effortlessly, nothing he does looks like it takes effort. He is so smooth in everything he does. The amount of goals that you can blame for Pitkanen, you can blame another 10 on goals we score or goals he takes away. If our defense didn't have Pitkanen, it would be downright scary how bad we would be. Pitkanen needs to stay here for good. 

For the people that think he needs to be traded, reasons why he won't or shouldn't be. 
1- Who are you going to give the 29 minutes of ice time he plays, even strength, power play and penalty kill? 
2- He has 40 points on this team. That's 4th best on this team, and 40 points is very good for a defense man not to mention a defense man on a team like ours who has given up so many goals this year. 
3- You think Rutherford is going to trade one of the marquee Finnish hockey players the summer before the Hurricanes go to play in Finland's capital. 

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I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but...

Let me preface this by saying I am not a big proponent of "offensive defensemen". As evidence I introduce: Coffey, Ozolinsch, Teverdovsky, Tanabe, ....

Pitkanen is 10th in the league in defense points. But if you adjust for playing time, he's 32nd. And if you look at generating team offense, he's 41st. He's actually behind Picard in that regard. Defensively he's a liability. His team defense stat (goals against per 60 minutes playing time) is near the bottom of the league. I would have preferred they sign/keep Corvo. Corvo is about as good at creating goals and much better at preventing them.

As for Staal I said this elsewhere in February: "Staal plays offense like Sir Lancelot at the Swamp Castle but he plays defense like the "Too Light" guy at the Bud Light party." Of the players who generate as much offense as Staal, only Louie Ericksson and Brad Richards allow more goals.

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I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but...

Let me preface this by saying I am not a big proponent of "offensive defensemen". As evidence I introduce: Coffey, Ozolinsch, Teverdovsky, Tanabe, ....

Pitkanen is 10th in the league in defense points. But if you adjust for playing time, he's 32nd. And if you look at generating team offense, he's 41st. He's actually behind Picard in that regard. Defensively he's a liability. His team defense stat (goals against per 60 minutes playing time) is near the bottom of the league. I would have preferred they sign/keep Corvo. Corvo is about as good at creating goals and much better at preventing them.

As for Staal I said this elsewhere in February: "Staal plays offense like Sir Lancelot at the Swamp Castle but he plays defense like the "Too Light" guy at the Bud Light party." Of the players who generate as much offense as Staal, only Louie Ericksson and Brad Richards allow more goals.

If you adjust for playing time???? What he heck does that mean?

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[quote name='ivyleager wrote:


DoctorMyBrainHurts']I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but...

Let me preface this by saying I am not a big proponent of "offensive defensemen". As evidence I introduce: Coffey, Ozolinsch, Teverdovsky, Tanabe, ....

Pitkanen is 10th in the league in defense points. But if you adjust for playing time, he's 32nd. And if you look at generating team offense, he's 41st. He's actually behind Picard in that regard. Defensively he's a liability. His team defense stat (goals against per 60 minutes playing time) is near the bottom of the league. I would have preferred they sign/keep Corvo. Corvo is about as good at creating goals and much better at preventing them.

As for Staal I said this elsewhere in February: "Staal plays offense like Sir Lancelot at the Swamp Castle but he plays defense like the "Too Light" guy at the Bud Light party." Of the players who generate as much offense as Staal, only Louie Ericksson and Brad Richards allow more goals.

If you adjust for playing time???? What he heck does that mean?

It means he pulled most of that "info" out of his posterior!

I understand not liking a player, I have a couple of Canes I just don't like for one reason or another. But to make up bogus crap about the teams best defenseman, is crazy. To say he's not a good fit for this team because you think he had one or two bad games....games where 80% of the team was bad....is just childish. If Pitkanen's value can be determined by the lat two losses....where does that leave Whitney, who was EASILY the worst player on the ice Tuesday night....even worse than grandpa Brindy? Too may people hate a player without having ANY knowledge of the game, or how to read a stat sheet. Pitkanen is the BEST defenseman on both endsof the rink Period. You can't dispute that. And to argue otherwise only makes you look silly.

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Sorry if introducing long division made it too complicated.

Here's a really simple set of statistics. Pitkanen at even strength GF 54 GA 58

Now even I will admit that that is not completely fair, since it doesn't take into account the Canes goaltending or compare him to anybody else. However, in order to take those into account, you have to adjust for minutes played. That darned divsion thing again.

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[quote name='TheBigKahuna wrote:


ivyleager wrote:

DoctorMyBrainHurts']I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but...

Let me preface this by saying I am not a big proponent of "offensive defensemen". As evidence I introduce: Coffey, Ozolinsch, Teverdovsky, Tanabe, ....

Pitkanen is 10th in the league in defense points. But if you adjust for playing time, he's 32nd. And if you look at generating team offense, he's 41st. He's actually behind Picard in that regard. Defensively he's a liability. His team defense stat (goals against per 60 minutes playing time) is near the bottom of the league. I would have preferred they sign/keep Corvo. Corvo is about as good at creating goals and much better at preventing them.

As for Staal I said this elsewhere in February: "Staal plays offense like Sir Lancelot at the Swamp Castle but he plays defense like the "Too Light" guy at the Bud Light party." Of the players who generate as much offense as Staal, only Louie Ericksson and Brad Richards allow more goals.

If you adjust for playing time???? What he heck does that mean?

It means he pulled most of that "info" out of his posterior!

I understand not liking a player, I have a couple of Canes I just don't like for one reason or another. But to make up bogus crap about the teams best defenseman, is crazy. To say he's not a good fit for this team because you think he had one or two bad games....games where 80% of the team was bad....is just childish. If Pitkanen's value can be determined by the lat two losses....where does that leave Whitney, who was EASILY the worst player on the ice Tuesday night....even worse than grandpa Brindy? Too may people hate a player without having ANY knowledge of the game, or how to read a stat sheet. Pitkanen is the BEST defenseman on both endsof the rink Period. You can't dispute that. And to argue otherwise only makes you look silly.

That is almost laughable.. Too argue that Pitkanen is better defensively than Gleason makes you look silly.

  

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[quote name='jeromeo87 wrote:


TheBigKahuna wrote:


ivyleager']If you adjust for playing time???? What he heck does that mean?

It means he pulled most of that "info" out of his posterior!

I understand not liking a player, I have a couple of Canes I just don't like for one reason or another. But to make up bogus crap about the teams best defenseman, is crazy. To say he's not a good fit for this team because you think he had one or two bad games....games where 80% of the team was bad....is just childish. If Pitkanen's value can be determined by the lat two losses....where does that leave Whitney, who was EASILY the worst player on the ice Tuesday night....even worse than grandpa Brindy? Too may people hate a player without having ANY knowledge of the game, or how to read a stat sheet.
Pitkanen is the BEST defenseman on both endsof the rink Period.
You can't dispute that. And to argue otherwise only makes you look silly.

That is almost laughable.. Too argue that Pitkanen is better defensively than Gleason makes you look silly.

  When you spend as much time on the ice as  Pitkanen does  your going to be on the ice when goals are scored against you.    Many games especially early in the season the only offense being generated was by Joni joining the rush and that does leave  your  blue line vulnerable.  But if your what is making the offense go what else do you do.   Pitkanen and Gleason play different styles so it is unfair to compare them.  Pitkanen's style might not be to  every ones liking but he is a heck of a talented D-man  IMO

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I'm not saying Pitkanen is a bad defensemen, I really do love the offensive presence he brings to this team. I just wish he would play with just a little more intensity. But you are right, I never really considered the amount of time he is on the ice, which is a heck of a lot. Lets say Pits does get a contract extension, I'm not going to hate it. BUT I will say he is going to have to be paired with a really good shutdown defenseman in order to even that pairing up.

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[quote name='OBXer wrote:


jeromeo87 wrote:

TheBigKahuna']It means he pulled most of that "info" out of his posterior!

I understand not liking a player, I have a couple of Canes I just don't like for one reason or another. But to make up bogus crap about the teams best defenseman, is crazy. To say he's not a good fit for this team because you think he had one or two bad games....games where 80% of the team was bad....is just childish. If Pitkanen's value can be determined by the lat two losses....where does that leave Whitney, who was EASILY the worst player on the ice Tuesday night....even worse than grandpa Brindy? Too may people hate a player without having ANY knowledge of the game, or how to read a stat sheet.
Pitkanen is the BEST defenseman on both endsof the rink Period.
You can't dispute that. And to argue otherwise only makes you look silly.

That is almost laughable.. Too argue that Pitkanen is better defensively than Gleason makes you look silly.

  
When you spend as much time on the ice as  Pitkanen does  your going to be on the ice when goals are scored against you.    Many games especially early in the season the only offense being generated was by Joni joining the rush and that does leave  your  blue line vulnerable.  But if your what is making the offense go what else do you do.   Pitkanen and Gleason play different styles so it is unfair to compare them.  Pitkanen's style might not be to  every ones liking but he is a heck of a talented D-man  IMO

I ask a simple question and get reamed by the poster, who thinks I don't know long division!!!! Please, when you use an arcane mathematical process to come with a statistic even the NHL site or any other hockey site (like fantasy) uses, then you should be questioned about it. However, to pretty much call me an idiot, is not defensible. Geez, I was alive when long division was invented!

Let's call it like it is: Joni had a sucky game. He has sat out a few practices lately, so I figure he most likely is nursing an injury. But to manipulate numbers to suit your fancy is not good science.

I'm just glad we lost so we can move past the "can we squeak into the playoffs" crap. Let's enjoy, if we can, Rod's lasts few games on the ice. He's sucking it, but he's been getting the ice time to end his career.

(Oh, and I'm bring in a sign tonight that reads: "Eric, play like this is Team Canada!")

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I guess we are going to see what our defense looks like without Gleason. He has a broken bone in his foot. We might really have something to rant about after tonights game.

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I ask a simple question and get reamed by the poster, who thinks I don't know long division!!!! Please, when you use an arcane mathematical process to come with a statistic even the NHL site or any other hockey site (like fantasy) uses, then you should be questioned about it. However, to pretty much call me an idiot, is not defensible. Geez, I was alive when long division was invented!

Let's call it like it is: Joni had a sucky game. He has sat out a few practices lately, so I figure he most likely is nursing an injury. But to manipulate numbers to suit your fancy is not good science.

I'm just glad we lost so we can move past the "can we squeak into the playoffs" crap. Let's enjoy, if we can, Rod's lasts few games on the ice. He's sucking it, but he's been getting the ice time to end his career.

(Oh, and I'm bring in a sign tonight that reads: "Eric, play like this is Team Canada!")

I love the poster!  I agree, Joni is probably nursing something.  He is not our worst d-man, and all of our guys have had sucky games all season.  Now Timmy is hurt, so McBain should see some ice time tonight.

  

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Well there are lies, darned lies, and statistics. Don't get me wrong, I love a good stat now and then. But the stat about Joni's goals for and goals against has so many confounders in it that it is near useless. But before going into that. The stat that Joni's GF to GA is 54 to 58 has to be evaluated in context.

The team's goals per game is 2.72 vs. 3.07 Goals Against per game. Thus the team's ratio of GF/GA is .886. Joni's is .931. Thus Joni is outperforming the team.

Further, Joni is frequently out against above average talent on the other side, and has been paired with rookies much of the year. Further, particularly early in the year and very lately, our team defense has been atrocious, in large part that is the forwards not getting back.

I think certain players, particularly those who have a long stride and those who mass lots of ice time, will have times where they "look" like they are gliding, and there are times when they ought to be gliding. (When the play is in the opposite corner from your blue line position, taking a breath makes sense).

To me the prima fascie evidence that Joni is the most valuable defenseman is this. Assuming that the coach knows who is best to have out there and gives out ice time accordingly. At least 2 if not three of Joni's last coaches all play him more than any other defenseman. Not just Maurice.

Joni can drive deep into the zone, make a play and get back and chase down a break the other way, all the while looking lazy. The guy is 4th on the entire team in points. He is a work horse. When trade time comes don't even look Joni's way. Not even out of the corner of your eye.

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Well there are lies, darned lies, and statistics. Don't get me wrong, I love a good stat now and then. But the stat about Joni's goals for and goals against has so many confounders in it that it is near useless. But before going into that. The stat that Joni's GF to GA is 54 to 58 has to be evaluated in context.

The team's goals per game is 2.72 vs. 3.07 Goals Against per game. Thus the team's ratio of GF/GA is .886. Joni's is .931. Thus Joni is outperforming the team.

Further, Joni is frequently out against above average talent on the other side, and has been paired with rookies much of the year. Further, particularly early in the year and very lately, our team defense has been atrocious, in large part that is the forwards not getting back.

I think certain players, particularly those who have a long stride and those who mass lots of ice time, will have times where they "look" like they are gliding, and there are times when they ought to be gliding. (When the play is in the opposite corner from your blue line position, taking a breath makes sense).

To me the prima fascie evidence that Joni is the most valuable defenseman is this. Assuming that the coach knows who is best to have out there and gives out ice time accordingly. At least 2 if not three of Joni's last coaches all play him more than any other defenseman. Not just Maurice.

Joni can drive deep into the zone, make a play and get back and chase down a break the other way, all the while looking lazy. The guy is 4th on the entire team in points. He is a work horse. When trade time comes don't even look Joni's way. Not even out of the corner of your eye.

Spot on with this - too many additional factors left out of the equation.  I think statistical analysis in regards to hockey is making headway, but there is a long way to go before they catch up with baseball.  Even in baseball, there is no real good consensus on how to rate defense.  The one key fact that everyone needs to remember when bringing up plus/minus is......

Marek Malik led the league in plus/minus in 2004..........eek.gifeek.gifeek.gif

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Here are some sites with advanced statistics and analysis:

http://puckprospectus.com/

http://www.hockeyanalytics.com/

http://www.behindthenet.ca/

http://www.behindthenethockey.com/

When Pitkanen plays, the Canes give up goals while he is on the ice and they give up goals when he is off the ice. Call them GAON and GAOFF. Since time on the ice/time off the ice makes a difference, divide by time to get a rate. These are usually multiplied by 60 to get GAON/60 and GAOFF/60. One advantage of this approach is to eliminate goalie effects.

Pitkanen has a 5v5 GAON/60 of 2.95 and a GAOFF/60 of 2.37

My conclusion is that if you measure defense in terms of goals allowed, Pitkanen is significantly below the average Hurricanes defenseman. I don't know what other conclusion you could draw.

And it is not the quality of competition (QOC). Pitkanen's QOC is 0.012. 0.0 is average. By comparison, Gleason has a GAON/60 of 2.46 and a QOC of 0.146

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