Jump to content
The Official Site of the Carolina Hurricanes
Sign in to follow this  
Law-Dawg

Youth is officially served...

Recommended Posts

As I stated in another thread, the youth movement has been taking place continually since november. Its funny to me how so many in the "tank the season" crowd, crowed for weeks about how so many moves should be made, and this started in December, while the moves were being made right before our eyes, but they were too busy fussing about throwing the season to notice it WAS taking place, and being done the right way too. All these youngsters have been brought along slowly without feeling any pressure to perform, and they have responded for the most part, like professionals. JR knows a little about player development on the NHL level also and the performance of the kids slowly getting better each call-up is indicative. As for winning games that many of you wish we had not, the development of our youth movement, in many instances, has not been responsible, but has allowed that to happen. So thats what some of us were talking about when we said to those who wanted the team to somehow throw the season away, that you have not been able to "have your cake and eat it too." You could not wish for a youth movement to come to this level and have the kind of success that would allow them to stick, and wish for the team not to be successful. Those two things just do not go together, never will. The winning environment the kids have helped to establish and have found at this level will carry this team farther in the long run than any one draft pick will all by himself.MJ needed help; Bill Russell needed help; Magic Johnson needed help;Crosby,Ovechkin need help. Stamkos was a great pick but in a losing locker room and environment , guess what, he needs help. Give me the way this season has played out, with a team of great character and spine, pulling it together too late for a serious playoff run; but continuing to stand for something and personify a winning attitude even when things were bleak. I'll take that over first draft any season,every season.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I tell you what, we are getting pretty loaded up on young talent at both the AHL and NHL levels...Dalpe now signed, he and Samson, Sutter, Boychuck, Bowman, Tlusty, Osala, and McBain, are all 22 or younger. Next tier of Rodney, Staal, Pitkanen, Ward, Peters, and Carson all 24 or 25...Then we move to the "old guys" like Jokinen, Ruutu, Larose, Gleason and Harrison at the ripe age of 27 or so.  Mix that in with a lottery pick and 3 2nd rounders for next years draft, I'd say the future looks pretty bright for this organization.

I think McBain and Carson are definately in the top 6 of our D-Lines next year; Boychuck will be on the top 3 lines; and Dwyer will center the 4th line.  As for Dalpe, Tlusty, Osala; and Bowman, I think they will fight for one or two open slots...should be a heckuva pre-season in 2010. 

I'm sorry to inform but Pitkänen is also an "old guy" like Jokinen, Ruutu, Larose, Gleason and Harrison since he is born the same year as Jokinen and Ruutu embarassed.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You have a mix of youth and veterans. I like what has been done this season. I think it bodes well for the future. We have found out what we have in these young guys and have not "tanked" but played brand of hockey that is enjoyable to watch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First, as to the topic, it does look as though we have a LOT of potential, especially up front, but also with McBain on the back. Of course JR has his own plan, but according to my plan we only need 2 of these  guys to pan out as 3rd liners or better next year to go with Sutter to form that third line, or Sutter to the second and ?Cullen on the third. Thus of Boychuk, Bowman, Tlusty, Osala, (?Dalphe, maybe too early), only two of them need to develop to at least third line productivity. I think Boychuk is pretty much already showing it, so just one more and we are set.

As for the never ending "tank the season vs. win at all costs because it teaches the young guys how to win" debate. If it comes down to winning at all costs vs. drafting the best player. It's not even close. The logic about a "winning attitude" is nice, but it all resets with the new season. One would have to say that winning the Stanley Cup would be the ultimate in creating a "winning attitude". We came out the next year and tanked. Yet at the end of the year we had amazing runs at the end of every season. Still missed the playoffs two straight years. Last year, the run of runs. Talk about building a winning attitude. How did that carry over to the start of this year? How about the year the team went to the Stanley Cup Finals and lost to Detroit? Lots of winning attitude from that year. How did that cary over?

No question that a winning team needs the right character, but at the end of the day you need the best talent also. Teams that lose year after year have neither. 

The run that we just had was nice at the moment, but is meaningless when the year endes. What if years ago Washington had nice little winning streaks that kept them from getting Ovechkin, Backstrom, and Semin in those drafts? Would they be where they are now based on getting that winning feeling instead?

We CAN get the young guys a good experience and still get a top pick. There is no expectation for them to win games. As long as they play well and give a strong effort a loss is just fine. 

Add an elite player from the draft and one solid free agent winger, and this team can win next year. Oh and how about this very team's turnaround from that dismal post finals year. How did that happen? Perhaps largely due to a #2 pick in the draft named Eric Staal. 

Despite our nice run, we are 3 points from the #2 pick* but also 5 points from the #9 pick. All the second round picks in the world won't move us up from #9 to #2, but maybe from #2 to #1 if needed? The playoffs are gone. Winning streaks by minor leaguers don't translate into winning next year. Picking up a superstar to go with Staal and Ward will lead to winning for years to come. 

*ya, ya the lottery, but the #2 slot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No doubt about it that we've gotten younger and, as a result, faster. That speed was one of the main reasons we went on the tear we went on that got us out of the basement.

The only concern I have is that when you look at our roster, you see quite a few guys who are under 5'10" and/or under 190 lbs. I mean, we have some small dudes: LaRose, Boychuk, Dwyer, Samsonov, Sutter, Whitney. I think Sutter will continue to get a little stronger and build some muscle. But when you look at the roster of the Capitals, the only guy who fits this bill is Scott Walker... hmmm, where did they get him?

I applaud JR's move to start drafting some size, because our little guys definitely get moved off the puck by bigger teams. You can definitely see it in the last couple of games with LaRose and Boychuk on the 1st line... they are forced off the puck because they simply don't have the weight against bigger foes.

But yes, the youth movement is on, and I think it's great that these guys were able to get significant experience at the NHL level instead of toiling away at Albany all season.

It bodes well for our future... in fact, I think we can be a contender in 2010-2011. Rebuilding through your own organization is a much faster way to see success (and cheaper) than trying to do it via free agency.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Remkin, I agree with you to a point but three things stand out to me. 

1)  While it does look like the top picks in this draft have the potential to become elite players, there is never any guarantee it will happen.  We can argue all we want about what happened with Andrew Ladd and who was at fault there but he's a perfect example of how it just never worked out.  I'd love to get that top pick at this point too but banking on getting the next Ovechkin/Crosby is a crap shoot and can't be the only thing to hang your hat on when building for the future.

2) Unless I'm misunderstanding you, I disagree that going on this late run wasn't a good thing.  With all the kids in the line up now, its important they find their way at this level to build confidence, make some mistakes and learn what it takes to succeed at the NHL level.  You're right that the late surge did little to help them in the standings but now the coaching staff, the vets and the young players are all getting a chance to see what they have and what's needed moving forward.  If the kids came up and didn't make a difference or show that they were capable of playing at this level, where does that put us heading into the summer?  They've shown that the team doesn't need to be blown up like Montreal or Toronto and has enough home grown talent to work with in the rebuild.

3)  This fan base deserves a team that will play its heart out regardless of what's at stake.  The Canes have made their mark in Raleigh and now are right up there with college basketball and compared to other markets that are having a tough season, our arena has been full of fans ready to cheer at any time for anything, even in the worst of times.  If you're trying to build a strong season ticket holder base, you need a team that will show up ready to compete every game and at the very least play an entertaining brand of hockey.  With the transitions this team has been through, it would be a lot to think they could play at a consistent elite level but it gives the fans hope for the future (and maybe sell a few more tickets) to see that there are many nights this team can play with the best of them and it will only get better with more experience.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Remkin, I agree with you to a point but three things stand out to me. 

1)  While it does look like the top picks in this draft have the potential to become elite players, there is never any guarantee it will happen.  We can argue all we want about what happened with Andrew Ladd and who was at fault here but he's a perfect example of how it just never worked out.  I'd love to get that top pick at this point too but banking on getting the next Ovechkin/Crosby is a crap shoot and can't be the only thing to hang your hat on when building for the future.

2) Unless I'm misunderstanding you, I disagree that going on this late run wasn't a good thing.  With all the kids in the line up now, its important they find their way at this level to build confidence, make some mistakes and learn what it takes to succeed at the NHL level.  You're right that the late surge did little to help them in the standings but now the coaching staff, the vets and the young players are all getting a chance to see what they have and what's needed moving forward.  If the kids came up and didn't make a difference or show that they were capable of playing at this level, where does that put us heading into the summer?  They've shown that the team doesn't need to be blown up like Montreal or Toronto and has enough home grown talent to work with. 

3)  This fan base deserves a team that will play its heart out regardless of what's at stake.  The Canes have made their mark in Raleigh and now are right up there with college basketball and compared to other markets that are having a tough season, our arena has been full of fans ready to cheer at any time for anything.  If you're trying to build a strong season ticket holder base, you need a team that will show up ready to compete every game and at the very least play an entertaining brand of hockey.  With the transitions this team has been through, it would be a lot to think they could play at a consistent elite level but it gives the fans hope for the future (and maybe sell a few more tickets) to see that there are many nights this team can play with the best of them and it will only get better with more experience.

TSA,

You make excellent points. I particularly agree with the last one.

On point one. Certainly the top pick is not a guarantee. It is all about the percentages. The last ten years the top 2 picks have almost all panned out as elite players. Ladd is a good example of picking say 4th or lower being more and more crap shoot every notch down. Further the vast majority of the super elite players were picked at the top of the draft. No guarantee, but much better odds, and in the end that's all it ever is.

On point two. I do see some value in the young guys "learning what it takes to win". But not much. The Canes are not really in the playoff hunt. They are still taken lightly by most teams. They have little pressure on them. What it takes to win under these conditions is very different from a true playoff run. Plus, there just doesn't seem to be much carry over from year to year, especially since the team will be so different next year. I DO think this. Having the young guys come up into a team that has thrown the towel in would be a true negative. I do think that the team giving a decent effort most nights is important. Just don't think they needed to go 17-7. Great effort and .500 would have been just as good in the end.

On point three. Cannot agree more. This is the one thing that I do feel some regret about going for the top pick. I am a season ticket holder. I am at many games and I do think that the players and coaches owe this fan base their best effort. I pay to see that. Considering how bad this year has been our fans have been extraordinarily supportive. That's why the players and coaches cannot mail it in. I have never supported that. That kind of malaise is too damaging to the team and the fanbase.

I still feel that the best outcome (this year only) is to win just enough games to keep the players from mailing it in for a large stretch of the season. To keep the effort there, just not actually win too many games. I think this has already been accomplished as we are only 7 games from the end. Going 2-5 to finish would have no effect on the team's attitude next year, but might land an elite player in Raleigh for years to come.

It's not guaranteed, but its a darned good bet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote name='remkin wrote:


TSA']

Remkin, I agree with you to a point but three things stand out to me. 

1)  While it does look like the top picks in this draft have the potential to become elite players, there is never any guarantee it will happen.  We can argue all we want about what happened with Andrew Ladd and who was at fault here but he's a perfect example of how it just never worked out.  I'd love to get that top pick at this point too but banking on getting the next Ovechkin/Crosby is a crap shoot and can't be the only thing to hang your hat on when building for the future.

2) Unless I'm misunderstanding you, I disagree that going on this late run wasn't a good thing.  With all the kids in the line up now, its important they find their way at this level to build confidence, make some mistakes and learn what it takes to succeed at the NHL level.  You're right that the late surge did little to help them in the standings but now the coaching staff, the vets and the young players are all getting a chance to see what they have and what's needed moving forward.  If the kids came up and didn't make a difference or show that they were capable of playing at this level, where does that put us heading into the summer?  They've shown that the team doesn't need to be blown up like Montreal or Toronto and has enough home grown talent to work with. 

3)  This fan base deserves a team that will play its heart out regardless of what's at stake.  The Canes have made their mark in Raleigh and now are right up there with college basketball and compared to other markets that are having a tough season, our arena has been full of fans ready to cheer at any time for anything.  If you're trying to build a strong season ticket holder base, you need a team that will show up ready to compete every game and at the very least play an entertaining brand of hockey.  With the transitions this team has been through, it would be a lot to think they could play at a consistent elite level but it gives the fans hope for the future (and maybe sell a few more tickets) to see that there are many nights this team can play with the best of them and it will only get better with more experience.

On point three. Cannot agree more. This is the one thing that I do feel some regret about going for the top pick. I am a season ticket holder. I am at many games and I do think that the players and coaches owe this fan base their best effort. I pay to see that. Considering how bad this year has been our fans have been extraordinarily supportive. That's why the players and coaches cannot mail it in. I have never supported that. That kind of malaise is too damaging to the team and the fanbase.

This is where I have trouble following you.  If a team is giving their best effort aren't they playing to win?  Its pretty black & white imo and if you're mailing it in, you're not playing to win.  It can't be both like you're suggesting though I can certainly understand the conflicted thinking,  I've bounced in between the same logic myself all season long with all its ups and downs.  The conclusion I came to:  I want to see good entertaining hockey and would be very disappointed to see my team mail it in.  With that, and as much I'd love that top pick in the draft, I can live with letting the chips fall as they may because its impossible to expect the best effort and want to lose games at the same time.  At least that's how I feel about it.

To get back to the topic of youth being served, it has been served well and the Canes are now one of the youngest teams in the league again.  With all that youth, spark and speed will come some inexperience too and giving these kids the opportunity now can payoff for next season when the slate gets cleared.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote name='TSA wrote:


remkin wrote:

TSA']Remkin, I agree with you to a point but three things stand out to me. 

1)  While it does look like the top picks in this draft have the potential to become elite players, there is never any guarantee it will happen.  We can argue all we want about what happened with Andrew Ladd and who was at fault here but he's a perfect example of how it just never worked out.  I'd love to get that top pick at this point too but banking on getting the next Ovechkin/Crosby is a crap shoot and can't be the only thing to hang your hat on when building for the future.

2) Unless I'm misunderstanding you, I disagree that going on this late run wasn't a good thing.  With all the kids in the line up now, its important they find their way at this level to build confidence, make some mistakes and learn what it takes to succeed at the NHL level.  You're right that the late surge did little to help them in the standings but now the coaching staff, the vets and the young players are all getting a chance to see what they have and what's needed moving forward.  If the kids came up and didn't make a difference or show that they were capable of playing at this level, where does that put us heading into the summer?  They've shown that the team doesn't need to be blown up like Montreal or Toronto and has enough home grown talent to work with. 

3)  This fan base deserves a team that will play its heart out regardless of what's at stake.  The Canes have made their mark in Raleigh and now are right up there with college basketball and compared to other markets that are having a tough season, our arena has been full of fans ready to cheer at any time for anything.  If you're trying to build a strong season ticket holder base, you need a team that will show up ready to compete every game and at the very least play an entertaining brand of hockey.  With the transitions this team has been through, it would be a lot to think they could play at a consistent elite level but it gives the fans hope for the future (and maybe sell a few more tickets) to see that there are many nights this team can play with the best of them and it will only get better with more experience.

On point three. Cannot agree more. This is the one thing that I do feel some regret about going for the top pick. I am a season ticket holder. I am at many games and I do think that the players and coaches owe this fan base their best effort. I pay to see that. Considering how bad this year has been our fans have been extraordinarily supportive. That's why the players and coaches cannot mail it in. I have never supported that. That kind of malaise is too damaging to the team and the fanbase.

This is where I have trouble following you.  If a team is giving their best effort aren't they playing to win?  Its pretty black & white imo and if you're mailing it in, you're not playing to win.  It can't be both like you're suggesting though I can certainly understand the conflicted thinking,  I've bounced in between the same logic myself all season long with all its ups and downs.  The conclusion I came to:  I want to see good entertaining hockey and would be very disappointed to see my team mail it in.  With that, and as much I'd love that top pick in the draft, I can live with letting the chips fall as they may because its impossible to expect the best effort and want to lose games at the same time.  At least that's how I feel about it.

To get back to the topic of youth being served, it has been served well and the Canes are now one of the youngest teams in the league again.  With all that youth, spark and speed will come some inexperience too and giving these kids the opportunity now can payoff for next season when the slate gets cleared.

This is my opinion. The players must play to win every game. Having players mail it in is too much of a negative. The players won't play to win if it is obvious that the coach would just as well lose, so the coach has to coach to win, at least on a game by game basis.

Further I must be clear that I very rarely favor going for the draft pick as a strategy. This is because given the parity in the NHL, the playoffs are a realistic possibility for most teams even late into the season. This year was the rare exception to the rule since we dropped so far so fast, as to be realistically out of the playoffs just over a month into the season. Again, this is key. If we were say 1/5 chance of making the playoffs, I still say go for it, but we were 1/50. Further, we were committed to the coach, so firing the coach was apparently not an option. 

As to how to do it. I have always maintained that it had to come at the GM and Owner level and they had to keep it mostly to themselves and not let it spread to the coach. How? Trades, lots of call ups, resting veterans with any minor injuries, start the back up goalies, etc. To be fair JR for the most part did this (other than not moving Whitney, I can't complain). The team won anyway. Nothing to do about that.

But that leads into a subtle reframing of the question that can confuse the issue which is when people phrase it as "what would be best for the team?".  That's a different question than "should the players tank"? I think hard fought losses with the youngsters showing great signs is best for the team. But I don't think that anyone can or should try to make that happen (other than JR putting those guys out there).

I was calling for JR to move all veterans with unrestricted status for picks, call up minor leaguers and play the back up goalie more. Not for the coach or the players to tank. For the most part JR did that. I want the players to play hard and try to win the rest of the year. But I am hoping for 2-5 on hard fought losses to be what actually happens. We can play hard and fairly well and still lose. That's my hope, but ONLY for these last few games.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only concern I have is that when you look at our roster, you see quite a few guys who are under 5'10" and/or under 190 lbs. I mean, we have some small dudes: LaRose, Boychuk, Dwyer, Samsonov, Sutter, Whitney. I think Sutter will continue to get a little stronger and build some muscle. 
Sutter is 6' 3". Yeah he's under 190, but he's not exactly a small dude.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Remkin and TSA, it's ironic that both trains of thought are being realized right now.  We are winning over the top teams, in exciting fashion i might add, the RBC is putting butts in the seats, the younguns are here, and we are 3rd from the bottom. What could be better?  cool.gif

Speaking of stocking your farm system ....... check out the Hershey Bears if you get a chance.  The Caps are loaded with talent. angry.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Remkin and TSA, it's ironic that both trains of thought are being realized right now.  We are winning over the top teams, in exciting fashion i might add, the RBC is putting butts in the seats, the younguns are here, and we are 3rd from the bottom. What could be better?  cool.gif

Speaking of stocking your farm system ....... check out the Hershey Bears if you get a chance.  The Caps are loaded with talent. angry.gif

Coastal you are entirely right. I was thinking after my last entry that what would really be best for the team would be that every team around us goes on a huge winning streak and we get to drop one more spot and still win a bunch of games. Not too likely though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...