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Canes 2010 general off season talk

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In my mind, it is totally inexcussable for the GM to say we're tanking the season. You can't be that stupid. Make up a lie; tell us what we want to hear but for God's sake don't say we're going to suck. Again, you can't be that stupid!

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We have actually been kinder to management on this board (I guess that should be expected) than on some other

boards who do Cane-related postings. Some postings I read today were a pretty harsh about the extreme low budget

and putting a questional product on the ice etc.,etc. I think management stirred up a hornets nest with some fans on this

one !

Nothing we can do but wait and see, I guess. But I will say that I am feeling a little discouraged right now-----so

I may ignore all things "Canes" for about a week and see how everything shakes out by then !  Later folks--------

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We have actually been kinder to management on this board (I guess that should be expected) than on some other

boards who do Cane-related postings. Some postings I read today were a little harsh about the extreme low budget

and putting a questional product on the ice !

Nothing we can do but wait and see, I guess. But I will say that I am feeling a little discouraged right now-----so

I may ignore all things Canes for about a week and see how everything shakes out by then !  Later------

It just seems really strange that at a time when we're trying to recruit a new owner that JR is trying to allienate  the existing fan base. Very strange!

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In my mind, it is totally inexcussable for the GM to say we're tanking the season. You can't be that stupid. Make up a lie; tell us what we want to hear but for God's sake don't say we're going to suck. Again, you can't be that stupid!

Who said we were tanking?? No one ever said that, JR never said that.  He said we would be competitive....Like I said in my previous post, you never know what to expect when you have a large number of rookies making the jump to the NHL, so there's no way that he can say we'll be a playoff team, so he said we'll be competitive.  Why is everyone freaking out about it?  

I agree with Legend here.  JR has finally realized that filling in spots with veterans and trying to keep the stanley cup winning core together is like putting a bandaid on a broken leg.  Everyone should be happy that JR has finally realized that and is rebuilding our team!  Teams naturally go through these phases where the old veteran core moves on and younger kids come up to fill in the spots.  Most fans here have never been through this before so it's new and uncomfortable to everyone.  The way to rebuild a team is not through free agent signings and "bringing back cullen", it's through restocking your prospect pool by having a good string of strong drafts and building your team from within.  That's why you always here GM's say that the goal is to have a team that is entirely made up of your own draft picks.  Going through a rebuild you have to go through a low point where you won't be as successful, but that is a small price to pay to build a team from the ground up to set your team up for long term success and competitiveness.  Everyone needs to be patient and realize what is going on.  JR is doing a great job right now, he got 4 picks in the first 2 rounds and now has 11 picks, more than any other team.  Everyone should be very happy with what is going on and how Rutherford is rebuilding our team.  This draft is so big for our future.  I wish people would realize this and stop bashing JR: there is a reason he is the GM of an NHL team and there is a reason we are casual fans posting on a message board.  He is smarter and knows so much more about the NHL and how to build a team.  Think of this before you tear him apart, accuse him of "alienating the fan base", tanking a season, or purposely not trying to do his job.  Wake up and realize this is how a competitive team is built!

end rant...

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[quote name='Sutter16 wrote:


Ramp23']In my mind, it is totally inexcussable for the GM to say we're tanking the season. You can't be that stupid. Make up a lie; tell us what we want to hear but for God's sake don't say we're going to suck. Again, you can't be that stupid!

Who said we were tanking?? No one ever said that, JR never said that.  He said we would be competitive....Like I said in my previous post, you never know what to expect when you have a large number of rookies making the jump to the NHL, so there's no way that he can say we'll be a playoff team, so he said we'll be competitive.  Why is everyone freaking out about it?  

I agree with Legend here.  JR has finally realized that filling in spots with veterans and trying to keep the stanley cup winning core together is like putting a bandaid on a broken leg.  Everyone should be happy that JR has finally realized that and is rebuilding our team!  Teams naturally go through these phases where the old veteran core moves on and younger kids come up to fill in the spots.  Most fans here have never been through this before so it's new and uncomfortable to everyone.  The way to rebuild a team is not through free agent signings and "bringing back cullen", it's through restocking your prospect pool by having a good string of strong drafts and building your team from within.  That's why you always here GM's say that the goal is to have a team that is entirely made up of your own draft picks.  Going through a rebuild you have to go through a low point where you won't be as successful, but that is a small price to pay to build a team from the ground up to set your team up for long term success and competitiveness.  Everyone needs to be patient and realize what is going on.  JR is doing a great job right now, he got 4 picks in the first 2 rounds and now has 11 picks, more than any other team.  Everyone should be very happy with what is going on and how Rutherford is rebuilding our team.  This draft is so big for our future.  I wish people would realize this and stop bashing JR: there is a reason he is the GM of an NHL team and there is a reason we are casual fans posting on a message board.  He is smarter and knows so much more about the NHL and how to build a team.  Think of this before you tear him apart, accuse him of "alienating the fan base", tanking a season, or purposely not trying to do his job.  Wake up and realize this is how a competitive team is built!

end rant...

I never mentioned JR in my above post----nor did I accuse him of "alienating the fan base", nor was I tearing him apart !!!!

I simply mentioned I had read postings on another Canes related board that were much more critical of "management", and

in reading some 25-30 posts it seems to me that some fans are quite stirred up about this whole extreme low budget thing.

And that, my friend, is just a statement of fact.

JR has a tough job right now. And in listening to his 17 minute tape---he didn't seem too happy or comfortable, himself, about

the whole thing. I think this is a stressful time for him, and I surely wouldn't want to have his job !

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WOW!  So we have to rebuild our team strictly from the draft. That would take quite a few years. My point is that JR said we would not be a playoff team this year. That is not a point you want to be stressing to your new potential part-owner, or to your fan base.

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WOW!  So we have to rebuild our team strictly from the draft. That would take quite a few years. My point is that JR said we would not be a playoff team this year. That is not a point you want to be stressing to your new potential part-owner, or to your fan base.
You also can't sell a business to an investor that loses money every year.  We've only made a profit for 2 years in our history.  Basically we need to make the playoffs in order to turn a profit, so a new business model is needed.  We can increase are income or decrease our expenses.  To increase our income we have to build a competitive team that can contend year in and year out, we are taking the steps right now to build towards that business model by rebuilding our team the correct way.  This takes time, so for now we must decrease our expenses to turn a profit.  This will show investors that we can make a profit even if we don't make the playoffs while we take the necessary steps to build towards a profitable team that is competitive every year.   This takes the risk out for investors and makes them more likely to buy into the franchise.  Luckily with our prospects transitioning into the NHL our expenses will naturally be lower and allow us to be to turn a profit while taking the necessarily steps towards our long term plan of building a competitive team that will increase our yearly income for the long run.  The average fan doesn't look to far into this and might see this as the team copping out and being cheap, so the All-Star game is a huge win for us as that will cushion some of the backlash from what the public views as cheap management.  This is why signing veteran free agents and handicapping ourselves with more bad contracts, as all July free agent contacts are, is a terrible idea!  I read on here before from one poster who thought we are wasting away the prime years of Staal and Ward.  That's what keeping up with our patchwork was doing and would continue to do if we don't go through a rebuild to put ourselves on the right course.  You can only fix something so many times before it breaks, and that's what happened last year.  It is absolutely essential for our franchise to do everything we are doing.  Everyone should be happy with what is going on, management is finally giving up on our patchwork that failed so miserably since our Cup, and taking the necessary steps to create a team that will be competitive, profitable, and successful for many years to come.  

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Sutter16, what you say makes very good sense and gives some clarity to our current situation. It was well thought

out and well explained. I do feel better after reading your post.

 But I think any young team needs a few seasoned vets. So explain how it makes sense to pay Roddy 3 mil to

play 4th line center and let your 20+ goal scoring vet walk instead? (because of the super tight budget ) I don't

think smartly placed vets in a young team is patchwork.

I agree this draft puts us in a great place to strengthen the franchise for the future, and I think that should please us all.

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Sutter16, what you say makes very good sense and gives some clarity to our current situation. But I think any young team

needs a few seasoned vets. Does it make sense to pay Roddy 3 mil. to play 4th line center, and let your 20+ goal

scorer vet walk instead?  (because of the super tight budget?)

Can our "Rats" compete in the NHL without veteran help? They were swept by the Caps "kids" in the Calders.

Our "core" players are also on the young side----can they lead yet? 

How much inclination has Mo shown at developing really young players ?

I still see a lot of questions here with regard to the upcoming season. Sometimes some well placed vets can

make a world of difference in the re-build process and re-build does not mean if you have well placed vets

it is patchwork.

Absolutely.  The supertight budget is not to blame here, unfortunately JR's big flaw is his contracts.  JR is a genius in some aspects of his job, but some of his worst decisions are what's killing us right now, the contracts to Brindy, Cole, Samsonov, and to some extent LaRose.  This is the patchwork I refer to and what we need to avoid, and thankfully are moving away from.  JR overpaid in dollars and years in an attempt to keep the Cup core together, and that has crashed and burned in our face, and it's unfortunate that it took a miserable year last year for management to realize this.  This is why we won't sign any big free agents, or rather overpaying for them.  While free agency is great, we will never be heavily involved in the big names as every contract signed on July 1st is terrible overpayment.  JR has realized this finally and you can see this with the way he is handling the Whitney situation, this is all we can afford to offer and we would love for you to stay, but we won't overpay to keep you.  Last year he overpaid Cole and LaRose to stick around.  Our management learned a lot form it's past mistakes and it is really showing this offseason.  So yes I agree keeping Whitney, at a decent price, would be ideal and help with the veteran leadership, but our bad contracts have handicapped us to the point where keeping Whitney is counterproductive.  The good news is, after next year we won't have any bad contracts (part of the reason why I don't want any buyouts this year, swallow as much as possible this year to start as clean as we can in 11/12), and our prospects will have a great year of experience under their belt allowing for a very affordable, young, competitive and profitable roster in 11/12.  If we can keep our recent drafting successes up, and Rutherford put us in a great position for this with 11 picks, then we can really look forward to many great years of our new team.  

I don't put too much stock into that as Hershey is the very best in the AHL and has some veterans, like Aucoin, who are great AHL players.  I put more stock into what we saw this year at the NHL level post-trade deadline.  That was the best record in the league with our rookies occupying many roster spots.  I'm very encouraged by that.  Our new core-veterans are on the young side, but many of them have at least 5 years in the league and people like Cole and Kostopolous have many more.  I'm leaning towards not getting rid of Cole, I think his veteran leadership will help, I know Boychuk has mentioned Cole specifically before.  It also helps that our young core, Staal, Ward, Gleason, Pitkanen, Ruutu, Jokinen, have also been through deep playoff runs during their 5 or so seasons.  I think they are very apt to lead this year and for many years to come, as they will be adjusting and learning in their new role.

On Maurice, I don't want to start another coaching debate, but the only reason I think he is still here is because of his contract.  This goes back to our current financial standings, paying two coaches would be a bad idea.  Unfortunately they aren't like players, once you sign them to that contract you are stuck, you must pay.  His contract is another causality of the patchwork of keeping the vets together.  We'll eat up the rest of his deal and most likely promote from within once it's over. 

Agreed, but well-placed also means you don't have a ton of them eating up money and roster spots.  A select few who know what they're doing can make a big difference like you said.  I have faith in our current "vets" (the 25-27 year olds) along with players like Cole and K-Stop who can show the kids how to be a professional.  Again JR's bad deals somewhat handicap us in this area.  

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Thank you for answering all my questions. Your answers are so solid and sensible.

But this board is strange. (You were able to answer my origional post, while I was in the process

of editing it.) In my edit, I left the part about about the Calders and about the coach.  wink.gif

I have just one thing left to say :   GO CANES !!

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Thank you for answering all my questions. Your answers are so solid and sensible.

But this board is strange. (You were able to answer my origional post, while I was in the process

of editing it.) In my edit, I left the part about about the Calders and about the coach.  wink.gif

I have just one thing left to say :   GO CANES !!

No problem, I enjoy discussing things like this, definitely helps pass the time in the offseason.  It's always hard to understand management's thinking, but we have to trust that (for the most part) they know what they're doing.  On the surface this looks like management being cheap, but when you really look at the situation were in and the moves we're making, you can see that we are setting ourselves up to be a team that will be highly competitive year in and year out.   We haven't seen the last of the Cup in Raleigh, I'm confident that we'll win it again soon enough.  But for now we have to bear through a year of transition, and that can definitely be tough to swallow.  We'll soon be reaping the rewards of this approach.

In just 2 more days we'll finally know who we get at 7, the draft can't come soon enough!  

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JR is understandably stressed now and if he was not I would be worried as it gets no more stressful than this time of year.  He gets paid for this of course.  The negativity expressed "in other places" is a contagion (IMHO)and 1 reason this board has a more pleasant atmosphere.  I appreciate the level and tone of discussions.  Yes we will be frugal correcting for contracts given and planning for the future.   I personally think Maurice will do a fine job for us.  As always the opinions here are many,impassioned and varied.  Ready for the draft, Rookie camp etc etc.

Go CANES!

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.Building through the draft and with players in our system is a good plan, but the Rats that played here last year looked solid but not great. Boychuck looked like a boy among men. Dwyer looked to be a solid 3-4 liner. Mc Bain looked to have the most potential. In other words, I don't see any Ovechkins, Seabrooks, Backstroms, Kanes, Keiths in our system. Going cheap is going to be a long rebuild. It could also create an atmosphere that makes Carolina as desireable place for free agents as Buffalo or Edmonton.

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JR is understandably stressed now and if he was not I would be worried as it gets no more stressful than this time of year.  He gets paid for this of course.  The negativity expressed "in other places" is a contagion (IMHO)and 1 reason this board has a more pleasant atmosphere.  I appreciate the level and tone of discussions.  Yes we will be frugal correcting for contracts given and planning for the future.   I personally think Maurice will do a fine job for us.  As always the opinions here are many,impassioned and varied.  Ready for the draft, Rookie camp etc etc.

Go CANES!

+1

Not sure Im as high about Maurice as you are but the lack of panic here is a welcome read.

  

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Ok a couple of notes from a guy in denial.

First, JR made a mistake by saying we would be a non-playoff team and we would compete in a few years. I understand lowering expectations may be a strategy, but it is a bad one. This is when you sell season tickets, not in May when the team is 20 points out. He should have said we will compete for the playoffs, but won't be one of the elite teams for a while, or something like that. OK fine. Everyone makes mistakes, I will give him this one.

Second, I have NO problem with rebuilding, and while I would like to see a winger to go with Staal, I understand we aren't signing Kovulchuk. But I have never advocated for a NYR style veteran overhaul. I wouldn't do it, and I knew the Canes wouldn't even before the cheap talk.

It is a matter of degree. The Canes have dumped Corvo, Walin, Walker, Cullen, A. Ward, Legace, Whitney, and in my plan would move at least Sammy. That would be 8 veteran salaries dumped with no replacement. Plus another, Brindy, while drawing 3 million might as well be gone as far as a contributing veteran. I am not asking too much to sign ONE mid-range veteran to help this team from dwelling in the cellar.

ONE move such as a trade of Sammy/Cole/picks to bring back a solid 3rd line center, or resigning ONE key piece like Cullen suddenly puts us into NYR territory? Hardly. It's a matter of degree. I think a few key moves at the mid level free agent/trade level would keep us from being a wildly inconsistent AHL level team. It would blend our best young prospects with some solid, at least modestly productive veterans. It would not break the bank. Probably not a cup winner, but a realistic chance at the playoffs would not be out of the question.

To be even modestly successful a team needs a few solidly productive veterans. If we go ultra cheap we will not have that.

If this team not only loses, but stinks, and it is obvious that ownership is committed to cheap, and never gave the team a chance to win, look for a relatively empty arena once the All-Star TV crews role out of town. After last year, to come out and put a deliberately inferior team on the ice to save money, and then run a couple of nasty losing streaks? Lets just say parking won't be a problem at the RBC center. The malaise will quickly dissolve into despair and then disdain and then disgust. No one will be thinking "well its for the best so PK can get a partner". I'm not saying that the Canes will end up doing this, but if they do the reaction will be absolute.

I understand that we are not signing the Kovulchuks and Hossa's of the world, but that doesn't mean that we have to be the NHL's Washington Generals. There is a reasonable middle ground. Say "fairly cheap" rather than ultra cheap. I am holding out hope that this is in fact what actually happens, but if JR and PK follow through with the ultra cheap model, it will be a long, empty year. The fans on this board might stay with that team, but most fans will not "understand" that PK has to somehow lure a minority owner by cutting payroll, and thus put a vastly inferior team on the ice.

It does not have to be that way. Ownership has to at least make some effort to put a decent team out there. Even one move like bringing Cullen back, or signing one midrange decent free agent, and or a midlevel trade would be just enough for me at least. BTW my plan would be ideally to move Cole and Sammy (I know that may be dreaming) and not sign Whitney and Brindy retires. That would be 10 guys gone from last year. To not call that a rebuild would be denial. Rebuild and ultra cheap are not synonyms.

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It does not have to be that way. Ownership has to at least make some effort to put a decent team out there. Even one move like bringing Cullen back, or signing one midrange decent free agent, and or a midlevel trade would be just enough for me at least. BTW my plan would be ideally to move Cole and Sammy (I know that may be dreaming) and not sign Whitney and Brindy retires. That would be 10 guys gone from last year. To not call that a rebuild would be denial. Rebuild and ultra cheap are not synonyms.

I can certainly understand the concerns but there's no way to know what this team is going to look like until the roster is set.  JR has 3 months before the final roster is set and the team is on a plane to St. Petersburg.

  

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[quote name='TSA wrote:


remkin']

It does not have to be that way. Ownership has to at least make some effort to put a decent team out there.
Even one move like bringing Cullen back, or signing one midrange decent free agent, and or a midlevel trade would be just enough for me at least.
BTW my plan would be ideally to move Cole and Sammy (I know that may be dreaming) and not sign Whitney and Brindy retires. That would be 10 guys gone from last year. To not call that a rebuild would be denial. Rebuild and ultra cheap are not synonyms.

I can certainly understand the concerns but there's no way to know what this team is going to look like until the roster is set.  JR has 3 months before the final roster is set and the team is on a plane to St. Petersburg.

 

I know that JR may well surprise. Until JR made his "non playoff" announcement I was full of hope that he would make a few key moves involving a few key new veteran aquisitions/trades. I know he still might, and it will definitely make it all better if he does. But some have lectured us that we need to understand that this is a rebuilding year and that we must go cheap and that we are in denial to think otherwise. I am suggesting that ultracheap would be a mistake, and is not necessary, would be a disservice to the fans, would ultimately backfire in poor attendance and fan disinterest, etc. Just making the argument against doing that since it is clear that my posts go directly to JR and PK.

Now my hope is that JR misspoke, or has some "expectation lowering strategy" or comes to his senses, and in fact works his magic and makes a couple of key moves. I had always assumed he would, but after his recent comments, now it is more hope than faith. But as long as it happens, I'll be good again. At the moment some of my posts still bathe in the lingering discontent of JR's "nonplayoff team" comment. I'm sure that the draft and an eventual JR unexpected pick up will dilute the aftertaste and things will look up again. Just not quite yet.

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[quote name='remkin wrote:


TSA wrote:


remkin']

It does not have to be that way. Ownership has to at least make some effort to put a decent team out there.
Even one move like bringing Cullen back, or signing one midrange decent free agent, and or a midlevel trade would be just enough for me at least.
BTW my plan would be ideally to move Cole and Sammy (I know that may be dreaming) and not sign Whitney and Brindy retires. That would be 10 guys gone from last year. To not call that a rebuild would be denial. Rebuild and ultra cheap are not synonyms.

I can certainly understand the concerns but there's no way to know what this team is going to look like until the roster is set.  JR has
3 months
 before the final roster is set and the team is on a plane to St. Petersburg.

 

I know that JR may well surprise. Until JR made his "non playoff" announcement I was full of hope that he would make a few key moves involving a few key new veteran aquisitions/trades. I know he still might, and it will definitely make it all better if he does. But some have lectured us that we need to understand that this is a rebuilding year and that we must go cheap and that we are in denial to think otherwise. I am suggesting that ultracheap would be a mistake, and is not necessary, would be a disservice to the fans, would ultimately backfire in poor attendance and fan disinterest, etc. Just making the argument against doing that since it is clear that my posts go directly to JR and PK.

Now my hope is that JR misspoke, or has some "expectation lowering strategy" or comes to his senses, and in fact works his magic and makes a couple of key moves. I had always assumed he would, but after his recent comments, now it is more hope than faith. But as long as it happens, I'll be good again. At the moment some of my posts still bathe in the lingering discontent of JR's "nonplayoff team" comment. I'm sure that the draft and an eventual JR unexpected pick up will dilute the aftertaste and things will look up again. Just not quite yet.

I think JR said a business model that could make a profit with a non-playoff team. I don't think he said that the team would not be a playoff team

or wouldn't be competitive enough to make a playoff run. Of course everything being said always starts with a business model to attract an investor so

I suspect the primary goal is to attract a investor regardless of the team on the ice. JR is to good of a hockey man not to try and find players that can give the team a chance.

I agree that we need some vets but I suspect they will be young vets somewhere in the middle of the FA pack.  Cullen could come back but if your Cullen at this point in his career would you want to come back to a team that just might have a playoff chance and a team that probable isn't willing to pay as much as you could get elsewhere.  I would like to see Matt back but I don't think it will happen.

My guess is Sammy will be gone soon. Cole will be gone by next year and maybe sooner and we will try to push Brindy into retirement before the start of the season. After next year we have many UFA and unless the team makes an amazing run some and maybe most will be dealt by trade deadline.

I am still hoping this years team has some spunk and energy and can make a run for the playoffs.

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WOW!  So we have to rebuild our team strictly from the draft. That would take quite a few years. My point is that JR said we would not be a playoff team this year. That is not a point you want to be stressing to your new potential part-owner, or to your fan base.
People are taking JRs "non-playoff team" too personal. Take one look at this roster and tell me that you consider this a "playoff contending team". Heading into the season NOT one expert is going to say "I've got the Carolina Hurricanes contending for the cup". That is all he is implying. No one is going to expect a team full of rookies/kids to be a contender. Can they be a contender, sure they can, any team can be a contender. But when a team goes through the transition/re-build that we now are, people are not going to consider you a contender. 

Not to mention JR has said that "the core is in place to remain competitive", yet we forget to include that piece and only focus on the "non-playoff team" which looking at the current roster, I don't consider this team a 'playoff team'. Doesn't mean I don't think they won't compete or won't make the playoffs. 

  

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OBXer has it right. There is a difference between "building a team that is not a playoff team" and "building a model that will make a profit with a non-playoff team"

This team has made a profit twice (2006/2009). What is the similarity, playoffs.

All JR is saying is that they need to build a model that will make this team a profit if they don't make the playoffs. As a business you can't guarantee that your team is going to make the playoffs every single year. Do you want your team to, of course, but with the parity, it gets harder and harder to make the playoffs. You have to set your business up to be profitable whether you have success or not. This is the first step in setting up that business model.

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I just returned from out of town and finally was able to listen to the interview.  I didn't read anything into JR's comments that I didn' all ready know or hasn't been stated publicly before. 

I find it very entertaining that folks can take a few comments from an interview and twist it around in their mind that the team has suddenly decided to tank.

Good gawd, the draft hasn't even occurred, the buyout period is still a week away from closing, and we haven't even entered into free agency.  At least give the man some time to put the team together. 

I think some need to step back from the ledge. 

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I don't think anyone has said the team has decided to tank. The guys on the team have as much "heart" as

they have always had. And the young ones will bring their own energy.

The concern is for the severity of the self imposed budget that management has set. Even JR's "magic" or

the draft can't make miracles out of 43-45 mil when we are nearly there already. Do the math.

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Ok a couple of notes from a guy in denial.

First, JR made a mistake by saying we would be a non-playoff team and we would compete in a few years. 

This isn't what he said.  He said we would be competitive now.  

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