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Canes 2010 general off season talk

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Just wondering what everyone thinks the chances are that we actually will make a move for another stay-home defenseman? Do we need to? Who should we go after? Right now, it looks like the defensive spots will be filled by Gleason, Pitkanen, Corvo, Harrison, Babchuk, and some combination of McBain, Borer, Sanguinetti, etc. The only true defensive guy is Gleason. There's still the possibility that Carson's brought back. Does that solve the problem? My perfect world scenario would be to find a team with salary-cap issues and deal Samsonov and a draft pick or prospect for a stay-home defenseman, preferrably with a similar cap hit. Then, the other team can buy out Sergei to clear cap space (we could always try to resign him afterwards if needed, but at a more reasonable rate). Once that's done, we can trade Babchuk for a 3rd line center (Dubinsky, maybe?). I know it's probably way off base, but it's my scenario and I can go where I want with it.

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I just hope our guys are able to step up the physical play a little bit.We have been manhandled for quite sometime now. It just seems to give teams the upper hand when playing the Canes. Hope some of the your guns step up and give us a little physical edge!! Not "GOON" Hockey just not pushed around!!!

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Its horrible because the value of the signing is horrible. The money amount is okay but we needed something else. Its like buying another sedan when you needed a truck or suv to haul or tow stuff. What does the sedan give you that you didnt already have?
We needed another Top 4 defensemen. Counting on McBain/Babchuk to be solidified in the Top 4 is just asking for trouble. What if one of them has setbacks? A Top 4 defensemen was needed to make this defense alittle respectable.

So, knowing a Top 4 defensemen is needed, look around the league. How many Top 4 defensemen are signing for $4.5M for two years. How many of those Top 4 defensemen are getting less than $2.5M. Nic Wallin got $2.5M, that right there says alot about what kind of money is being thrown around. Joe sacrificed and took a pretty hefty discount to come back. 

Sure we can sit here and say we needed a defensive-defensemen, but I don't think you are getting one for what Joe accepted.

  

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Not sure what the hang up is with Carson, but it seems pretty unlikely after the Corvo pick up that we are signing any more defensemen other than Carson.

I think:

Pitkanen-Gleason

Corvo-Babchuk

McBain-Carson

Harrison/Prospects

Is not terrible. Not going to crush a lot of people, but will move the puck and score some goals and help the power play. I'm not sure about the left right part of it, but both pp units should have two guys that can provide offense from the blue lines.

Ideally we do still need and offensive offenseman though. I still think maybe picking off a guy in the last year of his contract on a rebuilding team that is unlikely to sign him next year would be a nice move. Not even sure if such a deal could be made, but if it could it would be great.

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So, if the team stays the same, and the cap stays the same... come trade deadline time... if if we're in a position to make the playoffs, we might be able to get a player or two.  Thats the upside...  if we're not in a position to make the playoffs.... are we a team to unload higher-paid players?

We have several guys in the last year of their contracts. LaRose, Jokinen, Samsonov, Cole, Pits, Babchuk is on a one year deal. If we're not in the playoff hunt, I can see us shopping a few of these guys. I'd love to keep Pits, but as I've mentioned before, I think he'll be out of our price range, so JR may have to move him to get anything in return. My reason for wanting to move him now, rather than at the trade deadline, is that I think JR could get a top 4 d-man in return now. At the trade deadline, that will be very tough. If the team taking Pits is trying to win a Cup, they're not going to want to part with a top 4 d-man.

The signing of Corvo is interesting, because as others have mentioned, we now have way too many offensive d-men who aren't particularly skilled at mixing it up. This means, to me, that someone like Babs could be trade bait, especially at the deadline.

I think if someone were to come sniffing around Sammy or Cole at the deadline that JR would unload them for a bag of pucks.

LaRose and the Juice are interesting. LaRose is obviously a fan favorite, has grown up in this system... I think if he is having a decent season (similar to 08-09) that we'll keep him and re-sign him. The Juice? It will depend on whether those 30 goals were a fluke.

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Not sure what the hang up is with Carson, but it seems pretty unlikely after the Corvo pick up that we are signing any more defensemen other than Carson.

I think:

Pitkanen-Gleason

Corvo-Babchuk

McBain-Carson

Harrison/Prospects

Is not terrible. Not going to crush a lot of people, but will move the puck and score some goals and help the power play. I'm not sure about the left right part of it, but both pp units should have two guys that can provide offense from the blue lines.

Ideally we do still need and offensive offenseman though. I still think maybe picking off a guy in the last year of his contract on a rebuilding team that is unlikely to sign him next year would be a nice move. Not even sure if such a deal could be made, but if it could it would be great.

No Rem, you don't have Gleason with Corvo.  How soon we forget.  Those two are like peas and carrots.  smile.gif

Gleason Corvo

Pitkanen Babchuk

Harrison  McBain

Sangs     Rodney Borer

or

Gleason Corvo

Pitkanen McBain

Babchuk  Harrison 

Sangs     Rodney Borer

Carson isnt on the team.  Only problem with the powerplay is with Corvo, Pitkanen, McBain and Babchuk at the points then one of those units will by default have 2 right-handed shooters.  Not an ideal situation. 

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[quote name='coastal_caniac wrote:


remkin']Not sure what the hang up is with Carson, but it seems pretty unlikely after the Corvo pick up that we are signing any more defensemen other than Carson.

I think:

Pitkanen-Gleason

Corvo-Babchuk

McBain-Carson

Harrison/Prospects

Is not terrible. Not going to crush a lot of people, but will move the puck and score some goals and help the power play. I'm not sure about the left right part of it, but both pp units should have two guys that can provide offense from the blue lines.

Ideally we do still need and offensive offenseman though. I still think maybe picking off a guy in the last year of his contract on a rebuilding team that is unlikely to sign him next year would be a nice move. Not even sure if such a deal could be made, but if it could it would be great.

No Rem, you don't have Gleason with Corvo.  How soon we forget.  Those two are like peas and carrots.  smile.gif

Gleason Corvo

Pitkanen Babchuk

Harrison  McBain

Sangs     Rodney Borer

or

Gleason Corvo

Pitkanen McBain

Babchuk  Harrison 

Sangs     Rodney Borer

Carson isnt on the team.  Only problem with the powerplay is with Corvo, Pitkanen, McBain and Babchuk at the points then one of those units will by default have 2 right-handed shooters.  Not an ideal situation. Your pairings are better. I am assuming that JR signs Carson, which he may not.

I thought you were coming after my offensive offenseman remark laugh.gif, but no.

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[quote name='witchking-ch1 wrote:


caniac23']

So, if the team stays the same, and the cap stays the same... come trade deadline time... if if we're in a position to make the playoffs, we might be able to get a player or two.  Thats the upside...  if we're not in a position to make the playoffs.... are we a team to unload higher-paid players?

 I'd love to keep Pits, but as I've mentioned before, I think he'll be out of our price range, so JR may have to move him to get anything in return. My reason for wanting to move him now, rather than at the trade deadline, is that I think JR could get a top 4 d-man in return now. At the trade deadline, that will be very tough.

I think if someone were to come sniffing around Sammy or Cole at the deadline that JR would unload them for a bag of pucks.

You may be right about Pitkanen being out of our price range in theory. On the other hand at some point the team needs to keep a few of it's best players on the team. A lot will depend on how good McBain ends up being, and some of the guys on the periphery that we just picked up and might soon resign (Carson?). It just seems at some point we want to go ahead and pay a couple guys on defense, even if it's not cheap.

If anyone is sniffing around Sammy or Cole NOW he should unload them for a half a bag of pucks.*

*This assumes that JR puts that salary to use and brings in one legit scoring NHL forward somehow. If it just goes to the lowering of the payroll, then keep at least one. Still unload one of them to make room for ducklings.

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[quote name='remkin wrote:


coastal_caniac wrote:

remkin']Not sure what the hang up is with Carson, but it seems pretty unlikely after the Corvo pick up that we are signing any more defensemen other than Carson.

I think:

Pitkanen-Gleason

Corvo-Babchuk

McBain-Carson

Harrison/Prospects

Is not terrible. Not going to crush a lot of people, but will move the puck and score some goals and help the power play. I'm not sure about the left right part of it, but both pp units should have two guys that can provide offense from the blue lines.

Ideally we do still need and offensive offenseman though. I still think maybe picking off a guy in the last year of his contract on a rebuilding team that is unlikely to sign him next year would be a nice move. Not even sure if such a deal could be made, but if it could it would be great.

No Rem, you don't have Gleason with Corvo.  How soon we forget.  Those two are like peas and carrots. 
smile.gif

Gleason Corvo

Pitkanen Babchuk

Harrison  McBain

Sangs     Rodney Borer

or

Gleason Corvo

Pitkanen McBain

Babchuk  Harrison 

Sangs     Rodney Borer

Carson isnt on the team.  Only problem with the powerplay is with Corvo, Pitkanen, McBain and Babchuk at the points then one of those units will by default have 2 right-handed shooters.  Not an ideal situation. 
Your pairings are better. I am assuming that JR signs Carson, which he may not.

I thought you were coming after my offensive offenseman remark laugh.gif, but no.

Of course not.....but only if you leave the defense alone. grin.gif     

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Corvo was a good signing, not a great one, but a good one....and it surprised me because I didn't think we would spend the money...I went through a bunch of scenarios, but we're something north $46 million when we get to 22 players.  I thought that would be the absolute highest JR/PK would go.  Glad I'm wrong....but I do think this opens up a world of possibilities trade-wise.  As many have noted, we have a bundle of puck movers on defense.  I just can't imagine that Babs + something isn't on the trading block.  If it ends up being Babs, Sammy, and a pick for a player and a pick back, who knows what the possibilities are....

I also think its very interesting that Corvo was signed for 2 years, without a doubt Pitkanen insurance if there's little to no chance of re-signing him.  We could really see some interesting combinations and permutations.  The organization has to be hoping that McBain and Sanguinetti become top 4 puck movers by 2012-2013.  We will then have multiple options on Defense and money to sign one or more shut down guys.

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[quote name='remkin wrote:


witchking-ch1 wrote:

caniac23']

So, if the team stays the same, and the cap stays the same... come trade deadline time... if if we're in a position to make the playoffs, we might be able to get a player or two.  Thats the upside...  if we're not in a position to make the playoffs.... are we a team to unload higher-paid players?

 I'd love to keep Pits, but as I've mentioned before, I think he'll be out of our price range, so JR may have to move him to get anything in return. My reason for wanting to move him now, rather than at the trade deadline, is that I think JR could get a top 4 d-man in return now. At the trade deadline, that will be very tough.

I think if someone were to come sniffing around Sammy or Cole at the deadline that JR would unload them for a bag of pucks.

You may be right about Pitkanen being out of our price range in theory. On the other hand at some point the team needs to keep a few of it's best players on the team. A lot will depend on how good McBain ends up being, and some of the guys on the periphery that we just picked up and might soon resign (Carson?). It just seems at some point we want to go ahead and pay a couple guys on defense, even if it's not cheap.

If anyone is sniffing around Sammy or Cole NOW he should unload them for a half a bag of pucks.*

*This assumes that JR puts that salary to use and brings in one legit scoring NHL forward somehow. If it just goes to the lowering of the payroll, then keep at least one. Still unload one of them to make room for ducklings.

I agree on Sammy and Cole, but I just don't think there's a market out there for them. Teams are signing guys to less money this year because of the cap. I mean, look at Corvo... it's hard to imagine he signed for less per year money than Wallin did in San Jose.

IF there was a chance of moving either of them now, even for 7th round draft picks, I'd do it and spend the money on someone like Stempniak, who is still available. BUT I doubt JR is going to find takers unless he's putting together a package that includes prospects and picks and somehow tosses one of them into it.

I think the Kovalchuk mess is keeping teams from pulling the trigger on some deals, but it's questionable as to whether JR is considering anything.

I do have to admit that although I was against signing Corvo, we now have the top 4 d-men we had the year we went to the ECF. It's just that 5/6 is different and the depth is different. That doesn't mean we'll see the same result... our scoring ability will still be questionable. We really need Ruutu, LaRose to return to 2008-2009 form and we need one of Sammy/Cole to have a real bounce-back season. Someone has to step up for the goals we're missing from losing the Wizard.

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Unless we sign Carson (we still need a 7th defenseman) I think we are done shopping, trading, etc. We are right at the self-imposed salary, if not a little over. 

By NHL rules we have to have 22 players on the roster.  Goal is set.  Unless we sign another guy to a one-way contract (like Carson) then the 7th defenseman will be on a two-way deal.  If Carson is out, then Sangs likely has the inside tract there.

That leaves 13 spots on the roster for forwards.  We've got E. Staal, Jokinen, Ruutu, Cole, Sammy, LarRose, Tlusty and KStop on one-ways and Sutter still under his entry level contract.  That leaves 4 open spots for comptetition between Dwyer, Boychuk, Bowman, Dalpe, Samson, Osala, and Matsumoto.  Skinner is a wild-card but it is possible he could make the team.  Who knows with Riley Nash but Francis is really high on him.  Then there's a stampede of prospects with no NHL experience.

Those 4 open spots are going to make camp very, very interesting.

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Just wondering if putting Pits out there as bait for that top line winger we could use to play with Staalsy. Maybe throw in Sammy or Cole and get us someone whom may take some of the pressure off Staal?

THOUGHTS??

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Unless we sign Carson (we still need a 7th defenseman) I think we are done shopping, trading, etc. We are right at the self-imposed salary, if not a little over. 

By NHL rules we have to have 22 players on the roster.  Goal is set.  Unless we sign another guy to a one-way contract (like Carson) then the 7th defenseman will be on a two-way deal.  If Carson is out, then Sangs likely has the inside tract there.

That leaves 13 spots on the roster for forwards.  We've got E. Staal, Jokinen, Ruutu, Cole, Sammy, LarRose, Tlusty and KStop on one-ways and Sutter still under his entry level contract.  That leaves 4 open spots for comptetition between Dwyer, Boychuk, Bowman, Dalpe, Samson, Osala, and Matsumoto.  Skinner is a wild-card but it is possible he could make the team.  Who knows with Riley Nash but Francis is really high on him.  Then there's a stampede of prospects with no NHL experience.

Those 4 open spots are going to make camp very, very interesting.

hypothetical time..

Jokinen Staal LaRose

Tlusty Sutter Ruutu

Boychuk Nash Cole

Samsonov Dwyer Kstop

Gleason Corvo

Pitkanen Babchuk

McBain Carson (hopefully)

Harrison

Ward

Peters

Is that most likely what we are going to look like this year? And if so, I really hate the fact that Sammy is used on the 4th line again.. I think its a complete waste - there is really no room for Sammy on this team anymore.. I'm still questioning why there was a lot of talk of Samsonov not really being right for the team anymore and how a buyout was really possible, and then nothing happened.. If we could somehow dump his salary we would have enough for another defenseman (Carson) and a checker for the 4th line. However, I guess if management feels that Boychuk, Skinner, Osala, Samson and Bowman aren't ready that Samsonov could fill in on the third line just fine. (I hope Nash makes the RIGHT decision!)

  

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Just wondering if putting Pits out there as bait for that top line winger we could use to play with Staalsy. Maybe throw in Sammy or Cole and get us someone whom may take some of the pressure off Staal?

THOUGHTS??

Watch your back DJ, BigKuhuna is coming after you!..lol

  

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Unless we sign Carson (we still need a 7th defenseman) I think we are done shopping, trading, etc. We are right at the self-imposed salary, if not a little over. 

By NHL rules we have to have 22 players on the roster.  Goal is set.  Unless we sign another guy to a one-way contract (like Carson) then the 7th defenseman will be on a two-way deal.  If Carson is out, then Sangs likely has the inside tract there.

That leaves 13 spots on the roster for forwards.  We've got E. Staal, Jokinen, Ruutu, Cole, Sammy, LarRose, Tlusty and KStop on one-ways and Sutter still under his entry level contract.  That leaves 4 open spots for comptetition between Dwyer, Boychuk, Bowman, Dalpe, Samson, Osala, and Matsumoto.  Skinner is a wild-card but it is possible he could make the team.  Who knows with Riley Nash but Francis is really high on him.  Then there's a stampede of prospects with no NHL experience.

Those 4 open spots are going to make camp very, very interesting.

While I think we need one more proven vet up front, that would necessitate doing something with Sammy or Cole. Since Sammy has now fizzled twice in his career, and Cole has shown little since his injury, it is hard to imagine JR being able to unload them at this point.

Of course this is all based on swallowing the Canes self-imposed low ball payroll, but based on those factors, I have to begrudgingly agree with your assessment. I am intrigued by this Nash kid. If he decides to sign, I think there is little question that we are basically done.  The one exception might be a Babchuk deal, but I wonder if there are takers for him now.

So we will likely be letting Dalphe, Nash, Matsumoto, Skinner and even Dwyer fight it out for that third line center spot. If one gets it and doesn't deliver, they'll probably rotate to the next guy. Tlusty and Boychuk are basically inked in. There's no chance they're not on the opening roster other than injury. 

Lots of things are going to have to come together for this team to be even decent. On the other hand the team will be youthful and if things do come together they might sneak up on people. Further we have got a bunch of talented prospects.

Here's another thought. If we get within spitting distance of the playoffs this year, we could be buyers. We have salary room, and we already have a pretty full farm system. 

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Just wondering if putting Pits out there as bait for that top line winger we could use to play with Staalsy. Maybe throw in Sammy or Cole and get us someone whom may take some of the pressure off Staal?

THOUGHTS??

No

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[quote name='jeromeo87 wrote:


coastal_caniac']Unless we sign Carson (we still need a 7th defenseman) I think we are done shopping, trading, etc. We are right at the self-imposed salary, if not a little over. 

By NHL rules we have to have 22 players on the roster.  Goal is set.  Unless we sign another guy to a one-way contract (like Carson) then the 7th defenseman will be on a two-way deal.  If Carson is out, then Sangs likely has the inside tract there.

That leaves 13 spots on the roster for forwards.  We've got E. Staal, Jokinen, Ruutu, Cole, Sammy, LarRose, Tlusty and KStop on one-ways and Sutter still under his entry level contract.  That leaves 4 open spots for comptetition between Dwyer, Boychuk, Bowman, Dalpe, Samson, Osala, and Matsumoto.  Skinner is a wild-card but it is possible he could make the team.  Who knows with Riley Nash but Francis is really high on him.  Then there's a stampede of prospects with no NHL experience.

Those 4 open spots are going to make camp very, very interesting.

hypothetical time..

Jokinen Staal LaRose

Tlusty Sutter Ruutu

Boychuk Nash Cole

Samsonov Dwyer Kstop

Gleason Corvo

Pitkanen Babchuk

McBain Carson (hopefully)

Harrison

Ward

Peters

Is that most likely what we are going to look like this year? And if so, I really hate the fact that Sammy is used on the 4th line again.. I think its a complete waste - there is really no room for Sammy on this team anymore.. I'm still questioning why there was a lot of talk of Samsonov not really being right for the team anymore and how a buyout was really possible, and then nothing happened.. If we could somehow dump his salary we would have enough for another defenseman (Carson) and a checker for the 4th line. However, I guess if management feels that Boychuk, Skinner, Osala, Samson and Bowman aren't ready that Samsonov could fill in on the third line just fine. (I hope Nash makes the RIGHT decision!)

  

Completely agree with your Sammy assessments.  If we are going to use him on the fourth line we should have bought him out.  I'm leaning more and more that Skinner will make it very, very hard for JR to not include him on the team.  One thing about the 4 open spots, I believe it will be hard to pencil anyone of the two-way guys into any slot without a big eraser.  I'm betting they shuffle these guys back and forth from Charlotte like pinballs.

Cole and Sammy's (if a fourth line guy) contracts have everything in a mess, and give us no flexibility to add a vet, IMO.  

  

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I think it would be great if Skinner made the team (if he's actually ready of course). But if Nash does decide to come here, and he is good enough to make the team - who is the odd man out? Sammy? Does that put Cole on the 4th line? I can't really image Skinner being a top 6 forward yet.. but weirder things have happened.

Jokinen Staal LaRose

Tlusty Sutter Ruutu

Boychuk Nash Skinner

Cole Dwyer Kstop

I actually don't hate this lineup.. but that is one small third line.. One wonders if they will decide to knock Ruutu down a line just to beef it up some.

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I think it would be great if Skinner made the team (if he's actually ready of course). But if Nash does decide to come here, and he is good enough to make the team - who is the odd man out? Sammy? Does that put Cole on the 4th line? I can't really image Skinner being a top 6 forward yet.. but weirder things have happened.

Jokinen Staal LaRose

Tlusty Sutter Ruutu

Boychuk Nash Skinner

Cole Dwyer Kstop

I actually don't hate this lineup.. but that is one small third line.. One wonders if they will decide to knock Ruutu down a line just to beef it up some.

I understand the lovefest for Larose and all, and he did play well with Staal and Jokinen for the last two weeks of the season, But to have him on the first line, and Cole on the fourth line(who had the same amount of goals in 16 less games) is crazy.  I do think that they should give those 3 guys the chance to start the season together, but there's no way Cole is a 4th Line player, we pay him too much for that and he produces way more than that(even though most will disagree.)  I think we should have Cole, Samsanov, and Pitkanen line and call it the "I get no respect line" This way our beloved 7th dman can play, and they can put all the chips on their shoulders together and make a cookie.  I'm really looking for a big year this year for Cole, who did have a 61 pt. season the year AFTER his injury. Last year would have been his worst points total since the injury at around 40 had he played a full schedule, which is more than Larose has ever produced.   

Lets give Larose the benefit of his chemistry with Staal and heres what Im thinkin.

Jussi - Staal - Larose

Tlusty - Sutter - Cole

Boychuk - Ruutu/Nash - Skinner/Ruutu(depending if Nash signs)

Samsanov - Dwyer - Kostopolotomous

 

Ruutu doesn't deserve to be a third line guy but it would balance the lines out and give a little edge to that line.  I think Skinner might be going back to Juniors but since we share the greatest last name ever I hope he impresses in the first 10 games(if he gets them) and sticks around for the season. 

Thats my 10 cents.

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[quote name='coastal_caniac wrote:


djharley']Just wondering if putting Pits out there as bait for that top line winger we could use to play with Staalsy. Maybe throw in Sammy or Cole and get us someone whom may take some of the pressure off Staal?

THOUGHTS??

Nowhy not?

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What is all this talk about trading Pitkanen.  He is one of the best players on our team.  I actually feel he is the 2nd best player on the team.  I want Pitkanen to stay.  He is an improtant part of our defense and scores on a consistant basis.  We will resign the guy.

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[quote name='djharley wrote:


coastal_caniac wrote:

djharley']Just wondering if putting Pits out there as bait for that top line winger we could use to play with Staalsy. Maybe throw in Sammy or Cole and get us someone whom may take some of the pressure off Staal?

THOUGHTS??

No
why not?

Because with signing Corvo, we just now have a semi-decent defense.  Trading Pits puts it right back at terrible.

I think we would all like to see that top line winger with Staal, but unfortunately it's probably time to quit hoping it's going to happen this season.

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[quote name='djharley wrote:


coastal_caniac wrote:

djharley']Just wondering if putting Pits out there as bait for that top line winger we could use to play with Staalsy. Maybe throw in Sammy or Cole and get us someone whom may take some of the pressure off Staal?

THOUGHTS??

No
why not?

1)  Pitkanen is needed now.  He's one, if not our best puck mover, eats up big minutes.

2)  Trade Pitkanen for an expensive winger?....the same money will be needed to replace him on defense.  Doesn't make sense, given everything we know about our self-imposed salary cap. 

3) Staal needs to step up and take some pressure off of himself.  If he's healthy he can do that.

 

4)  We have some good prospects at wing; let's give one or two a chance to be that guy.  Consistent playoff teams build through the draft.  

 

5)  We need centers more.  Same as 4 above.

6)  If Sammy or Cole or both weren't used as trade bait at the draft or during the early part of FA, what makes you think it will be different now?

7)  What GM wants 5.8 million dollars in salary for two players that we don't want either? 

8)  We have a self-imposed salary cap, and we are at it.

I'm tired of typing but I could probably add a few more. blink.gif

PS:  I thought of another one.  Trading Pitkanen was discussed ad nausem a few pages back...enjoy.    

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