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remkin

The Case for More Veteran Offensive Help Next Year

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Well I would love for JR to go out and get some guys to add to the youth.  The only issue is we have money being used on overpaid veterans.  JR did himself no favors by giving Samsonov that contract or by getting Cole back.  On top of that we have to see if Brindy stays on contract.  Those 3 players hold over 9 mil of salary cap hit.  Im all about being loyal to players like Brindy so, I wont be upset if he wants to finish out his contract.  Im all about getting younger and trying to trade Cole and Samsonov.  Getting Frolov without over paying for him would be my top priority as long as we are able to move Cole and Samsonov.  He is only 27 and a 5-6 year deal worth about 5.5 or so a year would put him in the area where here belongs among his peers.  The team has 41 mil committed to next season with only 3 Dmen under contract. 

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I think if we could rid ourselves of two, or at least one, of Samsonov or Cole then we'd be able to go out and get a top 6 forward, potentially at top 3 forward.  If guys like Dalpe/Boychuck/Bowman/etc. all break out and all produce then we could still get back to where we want to be offensively, but that is a huge 'if', especially this coming year.  We need that top 6 guy, but honestly I think we need a top 3 guy.  If we want Staal to really have another huge year then we need to give him more 1st line talent to play with - not just get more depth on the 2nd line so that teams have to not focus on Staal's line as much.  

I like Samsonov more than Cole right now, but neither of them are what they used to be.  Samsonov would be a very solid 3rd liner, but we have enough youth that are vying for spots that our entire 3rd line should be made up of them (unless we want to go after Cullen as a solid center to give some experience on that line).

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Good post and good issue for discussion. Top 6, top 9? First you have to answer the question about the team's identity. If we're really going up tempo with youth and speed, then players must fit the style of play.

On the surfcace, Cole seems to fit, but a closer look says no. Why? Because he lacks puck control skills (see numerous failed breakaway attempts down the stretch). Samsonov has the puck handling skills, but is a step slow, and fails at winning the battles in the offensive zone. Brind'Amour is many notches below Samsonov in a similar profile.

I don't know enough about Frolov or any other candidate, but they have to fit the style. Lastly, grade players with puck control skills as the highest attribute. Then throw them on PP where the puck move QUICKLY, unlike this year's PP. That is why Cullen was valued in that area, and Cole failed miserably on the PP. I still don't understand what the coaching staff sees in his contribution on the PP, where he isn't the down low screener we need because he seldom finishes (puck skills).

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I agree with the general premise that the team, as has been for a while. has an overload of 2nd/3rd line players, and few legitimate 1st liners (and also, really, few 4th liners - although not as much a problem there).

But I also think there are enough question marks going into next season not to make an investment in a top line winger - during the off season. If things gel, then there's time to look into options into the season. That has the advantage not only of less expense, but also of being able to better target the exact needs after seeing what the youngsters - and perhaps some veterans - are able to do. If things don't gel, then having some impending UFAs to offer for draft picks is not a bad option to have, either.

Regarding Samsonov and Cole - the two names most bantered about to somehow "off-load" to being in a veteran forward, or just to make room for younger players...

I disagree that Samsonov isn't effective in what Coach Mo referred to as the "Hurricane's style" of hockey. During last season's play-offs, when they were playing that more aggressive, faster paced style, he was third on the team in goals. His style of play is most effective when there is movement to open up the ice - which he can take advantage of.

In fact, I think his play was hurt more than any other player during the "slow style" at the start of the season. And that is shown in the numbers - from 20 games in, up until Boychuk was called up and Samsonov's ice time was limited to give the youngsters more top line minutes, he played consistently good hockey. Over those 32 games, he was 11-5-16 (and a +2). (On pace for 28-13-41 over 82 games.) And even with missing a few stretches during that time with injuries, he was consistent: he scored goals in 10 games (31%), got points in 13 games (41%), and only went as many as three games without a point once. During this stretch, he also had both of his game winning goals of the season. Not first line good, but certainly good enough to be a factor on a second or third line (wherever chemistry is best). Of course, that goes back to too many 2nd/3rd line players...

Cole is more of a question mark. Obviously, playing less than half the season isn't helpful. The 18 game stretch between coming back from the broken leg and going out with the "upper body" injury, he went 6-2-8. Not spectacular, but respectable. (An 82-game place of 27-9-36.) But he was inconsistent even in those games, and there seems to be (at least amongst the media folks) significant concern about his latest injury. If he can get back to playing his style of hockey, I think he can be a big asset. And they seem to be grooming him to take on a leadership role within the team. But I'm not sure we will know how it will go until we see how it goes.

Now, does holding onto these two take up space that could be filled by youngsters? Well, in simple terms, of course. But realistically, I don't see too many of the youngsters (not counting Sutter, Dwyer or Carson) being ready for an 82 NHL game season yet. I could be wrong, but the talk to rotating players in and out between here and Charlotte seems a likely scenario. So a lot of openings aren't needed - and would actually be counter-productive if looking for a competitive training camp.

Looking at this season's rosters, it looks like successful teams have 6+ (and more often 8+) "veteran" (30+) guys. 30+ guys under contract for the Hurricanes next season:

Brind'Amour (39) - considering retirement

Samsonov (31)

Cole (31)

Kostopoulos (31)

That's it. So more veterans may be needed, but perhaps not at the expense of the current veterans - who already know and have done well in the system. One advantage of making changes early is that there isn't the need for as drastic a turn-over in personnel in the off-season - which should translate into a better start to the season, as they have a head start playing as a team. Although I think that is more pressing on the defensive side - where only Gleason and Pitkanen return on NHL contracts. Although there is ample opportunity to bring someone in who has experience on the team (whether Pothier, Corvo, Seidenberg or Babchuk) as well as several youngsters that have done well.

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Well I want to off load Samsonov and Cole as the third line should all be youngsters and the 2nd line should consist of Ruutu-Sutter-Jokinen IMO.  Neither one of those belong on the 1st line anymore.

Frolov-Staal-Whitney/someone else (FA or trade)

Ruutu-Sutter-Jokinen

Nino/Connolly-Boychuk-Tlusty or another youngster

Larose-Kostopolous-dwyer/another youngster

of course this is my best case scenario.  Allowing for all the 3rd line and last 4th line position open in the training camp. 

As far a D.

Pitkanen-Gleason

Seidenberg-Babchuk

McBain-Picard

I think the last line is open during the training camp.  Babs screwed himself the first time and JR screwed him the last time.  I think Babs has what it takes to come back.  Seidenberg would be great to bring back as he is young, knows the system, and JR likes that guy a lot.  Really JR would just need to re-sign our RFAs and get seidenberg or hamhuis in FA.  Neither one would be huge additions but it would be what the team needs. 

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.....As far a D.

Pitkanen-Gleason

Seidenberg-Babchuk

McBain-Picard

I think the last line is open during the training camp.  Babs screwed himself the first time and JR screwed him the last time.  I think Babs has what it takes to come back.  Seidenberg would be great to bring back as he is young, knows the system, and JR likes that guy a lot.  Really JR would just need to re-sign our RFAs and get seidenberg or hamhuis in FA.  Neither one would be huge additions but it would be what the team needs. 

If the Canes go up tempo they'll need blueliners that can move the puck, and keep pace.  That was a key problem going into this season, where JR sought to get bigger/tougher.  Nope, not in today's game.  The youth up front helped transition to where the Canes need to go, and the defense has started a similar transition.  It is still unsettled, but hopefully McBain is for real and closes one hole.  Guys who pass the puck well are needed, and that is where Joni shines (as does Babs).

Defenders can't hold up wingers like pre-lockout, and have to turn, skate and head up ice.  That same dump/chase helps our young wingers, but they have to win the battles down low (which Samsonov doesn't).

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I think the reason behind JR's comment recently (about possibly taking two seasons to be ready for playoffs) was to prepare us for another season of struggle as the young guys get a larger portion of NHL ice-time and responsibility.  It might take them time to fill the holes successfully.  That lead me to believe that he is intending on fill the gaps with the young players and thus wouldn't be getting veterans in the offseason.  I think he's looking to build a team of the future, for future success, not trying to build a Stanley Cup contender team for the 2010-2011 season.  That's what he did this season, and it failed.  So I'd be surprised if he signed more veterans.

Also, Karmanos is looking to spend less money on the up-coming season.  So, that basically rules out the whole sign a big-name player to play with Staal idea.  Of course that's only if this thread is intended to be realistic.  If it's more of a How would you fix the team thing than disregard that.

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well the addition of Seidenberg and Babs should make us more mobile.  Babs adds size and O ability.
And Seidenberg is a puck-magnet.  With Yelle gone, we need a solid shot-blocker, and Seids was excellent at that aspect.  I'd love to get them both back, too!  But I suspect that JR will try to off-load Babchuk if he returns to the NHL.

  

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...while I am excited as anyone about the potential of our prospects, I think there is a very compelling case for

making a couple of key moves to add at least 2 veteran forwards into our current top 9, with one for the top 3.

Yes, the case for the top winger.

It is remarkable that this team did so well at the end of the year. We can debate the reason for this, many of you

know what I think.  But youthful enthusiasm will generally only take a team so far.

Every top team has proven top scorers with the consistent ability to put up points in the NHL.

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The fan base here is very understanding when listening to JR's candid assessment for the future. 

But playing well when auditioning for a job is easy.  The early season problems were not of their making

and they didn't feel responsible.  Quite simply, it wasn't the kids fault, so they were able to play free and easy.

Things will become more difficult.  Doing it over a 82-game schedule is hard.  That'll show up next year.  Still,

it speaks well of the coaches that every prospect, every rookie, every career minor league recall performed

well.  It didn't hurt that Cam Ward had a great .916 save percentage, plus Legace and Peters were very good.

Will a guy like McBain make rookie mistakes?  Sure.  But it doesn't really matter unless it begins to affect his

confidence.  The team will be younger, faster, play hard and be very exciting to watch.  The RBC will rock.

But, I don't really see any major veteran talent infusion coming to push the team from good to great. 

Jokinen produced more because he was never given the opportunity in the past with other teams.  Is he good

for 30 again?  Not likely, but you have to pencil him in for 20-25 based on the amount of icetime he'll receive.

He will get a lot of top-line minutes and power play time.  I'm not concerned with him, but there are questions.

Boychuk will be given every opportunity to win (and hold) a top-6 winger spot.  Which is saying a lot when you

consider that he only has 3 career goals.  Tlusty will get a shot to show he can do better than 1 goal in 20 games.

Bowman will get a chance.  Dalpe (who I think may turn out to be the best of the bunch) won't spend the whole

year in Charlotte.  But, based on his 31-game audition, Boychuk gets first shot at landing a spot on a scoring line.

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I thought JR sounded pretty reasonable in the press conference. He has a lot of big decicions to make the next few months and I'm just going to take his signings in stride as they develop. Personally, I'm more concerned about our defense and just hope he doesn't dip too deep into Charlotte for forwards and payroll sake. With big question marks behind Ray and especially Brindy, and there is also a lot of experience, savy and leadership as stake as well, I can't see how JR could get around not signing another veteran forward or two - if he still wants the team to be competitive. I guess that might be the big question. Getting a good look as some young talent during an off-season when a lot of the games have lost their importance is one thing but let's be realistic, in a new season the only thing that really matters is production and winning games. Sure, our young'ns did good but I think most of them are still years away from making a real impact and being consistent contributors, and the AHL is probably better suited to get more experience and confidence. I think JR's recent comments about rotating our 'Checkers' in and out of the lineup were mostly payroll driven and eventhough I'll always look forward to the next season with hope, I do appreciate his honesty about not expecting too much from our guys over the next couple of seasons.   

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Good points davidrabbit and good topic.  Jim Rutherford has been very candid about the youth movement and rebuild, and taken great pains in preparing the fan base for what could be a transition season.  The young players did a great job this past season but like davidrabbit said, the pressure will be high to repeat that success again.  Kind of like a Stanley Cup winning team usually has a tough time finding a strong compete level to start the following season after playing at such an intense and elite level for the playoffs.

We may need fkelly for the true translation of JR speak laugh.gif but I think JR is being cautious with the fan base to not set up the lofty expectations we went into last season with.  It's better to be cautiously optimistic so there's less of a chance for disappointment if things don't come together as quick as we'd like.

And to get this back to Remkin's topic, with all the young kids will have on the team, there will be a big need imo for some veteran presence.  Pittsburgh recognized that when they went out and signed Bill Guerin a couple of trade deadlines ago, the Isles signed Doug Weight and the Caps signed Mike Knuble to add a veteran presence to all their youth.  LA is an example of a team who took a bit longer for the team to come together because imo, they lost Rob Blake as their veteran anchor.  Adding Ryan Smyth and Freddy Modin has made a difference for them, (although some could argue it was finally their time).

Good topic Remkin.

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Let's assume the following...1) Cole or Sammy is not on the roster next year; Whit signs a deal with the Canes and 2) Brindy is in the front office, not on the ice

Lines

Whit Staal ____

 Jussi Sutter Ruutu

Sammy or Cole ____ LaRose

Kosto  Dwyer ____

I think a veteran winger who could bolster the 1st or 2nd line would be a huge benefit; although if we are able to get a guy like Connoly or Niederreiter with the #7 pick I don't know if it is necessary.  We need to lock up a good 3rd line centerman (Cullen, Koivu, Plekanec?) and we need a winger on the 4th line...I'd like to see if Tlusty or Osala can fit that role.  I think with Staal, Whit, Ruutu we have enough veterans to lead the team.  

On the other hand, if Whit goes the way of free agency Brindy retires and we package away Sammy or Cole, I think a guy like Frolov would be an excellent addition to the team, playing first line minutes and let our new star winger get comfortable and work his way into the mix.  A lot depends on the draft and player movement. It's tough to think about it with all the young players we've seen this year but right now there's only one or two roster spots to fight for.  The team was just so banged up this year...did we ever see a fully healthy team? 

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I'm in concurrence with the consensus that JR is looking to build for the future and he respectfully told everyone, fans, media etc. to be patient. I'm glad he did too.  It shows a lot of professionalism and a pragmatic approach.  On the subject of Rosie.  My personal opinion is that he is and will be a 20 goal scorer.  He played 58 games in the 2007-2008 season and had 11 goals.  2009 gave way to 19 goals but he played 81 games, healthy.  Again this year he had 11 goals but did that in 56 games and added 17 assists to give him almost the same point total has his 81 game season.  I do admit that I am a LaRose fan due to his off ice candor and wit but mostly because he shows A LOT of heart as long as he's healthy.  I think it's exciting to see the Canes in this transitional phase and that they aren't afraid to admit it.  We have a huge supply of potential talent and if even 2 of those young offensive players become 20+ or 30+ goal scorers then we will have the offense to take us to another cup.  This, however, will probably take more than one year.  We all know the facts but Staal only scored 11 goals in his first season in 81 games.  Went to the minors for a year, during the lock out, came back and had a 45 goal season.  Basically JR and PK have negotiated a lot of potential talent for a small price tag and have the luxury of relatively little pressure next year.  This, to me, is a recipe for Stanley Cup goodness in the next few years and I couldn't be more pumped to see it unfold.    

I would also like to see Cam come back and have another hot season.  This would give me a lot more confidence in the team as a whole. There is no substitute for elite goaltending.  

*Fingers crossed*

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....  to keep consistent with Remkin's original post, I think JR is banking on his "young-old" players like Staal , LaRose, Jokinen to take on the Veteran role and given another year or 2 should work out that way.  My personal opinion, is that Whitney will return next year to help with the transition in place of Rod.  Rod will still be a part of player development though and this could be a great success.  Just my thoughts.

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I think that the draft is going to tell us a lot about the makeup of the team next year...if we go offense and get a potentially elite caliber winger with the #7 pick and make a trade to get another late first rounder, using a player and a pick (if we go D there, he's likely to be developmental) I think there's a good chance we let Ray Whitney go and pick up a player in the market as well. If the team goes the other way and picks D first and a late 1st rounder at the wing, I think we see Whit back for one or tow more years.

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I think our biggest holes (on offense) are the third line center position and another top-6 forward, preferably a first line winger.  Its my biggest fear that we will hang onto the notion that Cole will make a miraculous turnaround and be that guy in the top 6 going forward, which could negate the need to bring in another player to fill that role.  But, moving both Sammy and Cole would free up around 5.5 mil, enough to get that top line winger. I can't see Whitney on the top line going forward, but if he signs (I think he will) he's likely penciled into at least the second line.  I also think Rod will be back ....just don't see him quitting on a contract, particularly since JR essentially gave him the green light for a return.  So, if both Rod and Whitney come back, veteran presence in the offense is kind of a mute point, right? At least in the short term.  JR is going to have to make a decision after the draft about the third line center position.  He can't wait until training camp to see if someone can fill that role from the youth ranks having done nothing during the summer in free agency.  The draft could fill that need, but that would be a stretch, IMO.

As far as spending dollars, I think our defense is equally suspect, and will require some immediate attention.  We have to offset the loss of Corvo in some way.  While I like what I have seen from McBain, it is an 82-game season and defensemen typically take longer to develop.  We need blueline scoring as well.  I'm very interested to see what's up JR's sleeve with respect to Babchuk.  In my mind, bringing back Babchuk would likely forgo the need for Pothier, and he would be the odd man out.  Personally, I think hes gone anyway.

The first thing I hope will happen is JR will settle the two pending decisions on Brindy and Whitney.  




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Just curious but what's up with all the Frolov love? Seems like someone threw his name on the table long ago when there were a lot of trade talks about him and since then he has become the big name UFA JR should be gunning for. I watched him a couple of times and think he is ok but I doubt JR has him in his sights. His gene pool is way to similar to Babchuk's.

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Great responses. I thought I might be one of a few with this point of view.

I guess I am also projecting that Cole and Sammy somehow get moved, and clearly that Brind'Amour takes a nice job upstairs.

The thing is both Cole and Sammy are guys who seem to have more potential than their actual production. This is fine if these guys are on the third line and paid commensurate with that. But I see the third line as the obvious place for our young guns next year. Yes, they may exceed that, but they may also take a step back. So if Cole and Sammy stay, then they are either pushed up to the second line, or the young guys are. Neither is a very good option.

If Cole and Sammy get moved, and particularly if they bring defense back in a trade, then we have a lot of openings in our top 9. Too many to just fill with our prospects if we have any intention of being any good at all next year.

I'll go out on a limb and say that despite the statement that the team lost money, the fans showed amazing support of this team. If nothing else we deserve a legitimate top line. If we're going to struggle with a whole lot of young guys trying to find consistency, at least roll out 3 guys who you know are going to produce. Nearly every team at least has that.

I'm very optimistic about our future, but after this year, then not getting a top 2 pick, I am not ready to suffer through another bad year with no attempt to bring in at least one more solid NHL scorer. Like others, I would not be happy if the plan is that Cole and Samsonov will find their long lost games next year, and that Whitney will never age, and especially that Brind'Amour is owed one more year. By the same token we can't go 180 degrees and move them all out and field a team half full of rookies. We need a reasonable mix.

Personally, I think if JR and PK go out and find just one legit top line winger* and then bring Cullen back, they can keep one (or even none) of Whitney, Cole or Sammy, and have the chance to actually have a good team next year. I don't agree that this fan base will easily withstand another year of no playoffs. Plus, people didn't want this year's team to tank on the playoffs when we had a snowball's chance, we certainly don't want JR to consciously put a team out there with substandard talent and experience and just throw next year. I know he never said that, but his comments have made me a touch uneasy on that.

Give us that winger and Cullen (or a similar 3rd line guy) and give us a chance to win next year.

*again, I'm not talking top 20. Someone with the potential to finish the year in the top 50-70 forwards for points would be fine.

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I thought JR sounded pretty reasonable in the press conference. He has a lot of big decicions to make the next few months and I'm just going to take his signings in stride as they develop. Personally, I'm more concerned about our defense and just hope he doesn't dip too deep into Charlotte for forwards and payroll sake. With big question marks behind Ray and especially Brindy, and there is also a lot of experience, savy and leadership as stake as well, I can't see how JR could get around not signing another veteran forward or two - if he still wants the team to be competitive. I guess that might be the big question. Getting a good look as some young talent during an off-season when a lot of the games have lost their importance is one thing but let's be realistic, in a new season the only thing that really matters is production and winning games. Sure, our young'ns did good but I think most of them are still years away from making a real impact and being consistent contributors, and the AHL is probably better suited to get more experience and confidence. I think JR's recent comments about rotating our 'Checkers' in and out of the lineup were mostly payroll driven and eventhough I'll always look forward to the next season with hope, I do appreciate his honesty about not expecting too much from our guys over the next couple of seasons.   

I agree with you about JR and I appreciate his candor and upfrontness in his press conferences.  It's refreshing that a GM

can say what he honestly thinks.  A don't think that's the case in other cities with other GMs.  I think it reflects the mutual

respect between the fan base and Mr. Rutherford.

Remkin has hit on a good topic here about the need for adding veterans (ideally a top-4 d-man and a top-6 winger), but 

most, if not all, of the potential problems can be handled in-house.  Not the top-4 d-man thing, tho.  That can't be handled

within the organization.  Personally, I'd also like to see some more size, grit and defensive acumen on the bottom-6.  In a

perfect world.  Problem is, the world may not be perfect in the immediate future and JR is showing prudence in likely

putting those things off for the time being.  This isn't to say that things couldn't change by the trade deadline in 2011 if things

are going really well.

Yes, it saves money in the short term to do a bunch of AHL recalls, but the reason is more due to the talent available.  Ray

Whitney provided 21 goals and 37 assists for 58 points.  Could Boychuk provide 15 goals and 25 assists playing 80 NHL

games?  I think so.  Would he be doing that for 1/3 the cap hit and 1/4 the salary?  Yep.  That said, Whitney will be back.

  

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Good points davidrabbit and good topic.  Jim Rutherford has been very candid about the youth movement and rebuild, and taken great pains in preparing the fan base for what could be a transition season.  The young players did a great job this past season but like davidrabbit said, the pressure will be high to repeat that success again.  Kind of like a Stanley Cup winning team usually has a tough time finding a strong compete level to start the following season after playing at such an intense and elite level for the playoffs.

We may need fkelly for the true translation of JR speak laugh.gif but I think JR is being cautious with the fan base to not set up the lofty expectations we went into last season with.  It's better to be cautiously optimistic so there's less of a chance for disappointment if things don't come together as quick as we'd like.

And to get this back to Remkin's topic, with all the young kids will have on the team, there will be a big need imo for some veteran presence.  Pittsburgh recognized that when they went out and signed Bill Guerin a couple of trade deadlines ago, the Isles signed Doug Weight and the Caps signed Mike Knuble to add a veteran presence to all their youth.  LA is an example of a team who took a bit longer for the team to come together because imo, they lost Rob Blake as their veteran anchor.  Adding Ryan Smyth and Freddy Modin has made a difference for them, (although some could argue it was finally their time).

Good topic Remkin.

  

The Knuble signing last off-season, in my estimation, was the single best move any team made to get over the hump.

(2nd on the list was LA signing Rob Scuderi).  All of the teams you mentioned are at different stages of development.

LA has a pretty good group of young talent from years of losing and drafting high.  Washington had Ovechkin, Semin

and Backstrom, but not much else at forward (and at times they played on the same line - talk about putting all of your

eggs in one basket!) ... now they have 2 dynamic scoring lines and topped 300 GF in the regular season.  Chicago has

turned the corner with elite talent (while Columbus with as many opportunities to improve has not).  Carolina ... and it's

important to remember that 2006 was several lifetimes ago in hockey time ... isn't where those teams are.  Might be in

the near future, but not right now.  There will likely be some 'mentoring' signings, but not any 'impact' signings.

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