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remkin

The Case for More Veteran Offensive Help Next Year

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Give us that winger and Cullen (or a similar 3rd line guy) and give us a chance to win next year.

The time to add a top 4 d-man and a solid 2-way winger was last summer ... as I mentioned last September. 

Timing is everything.  smile.gif

  

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[quote name='davidrabbit wrote:


remkin']

Give us that winger and Cullen (or a similar 3rd line guy) and give us a chance to win next year.

The time to add a top 4 d-man and a solid 2-way winger was last summer ... as I mentioned last September. 

Timing is everything.  smile.gif

  I agree and posted it many times back then. But I'll go even further. The time might have been pre-playoff trade deadline a year ago. Our tade deadline move, hailed as the big move of the time was to get Cole back. Well he did nothing in the playoffs, nor since. That was the time to be a buyer and go for it, but JR recycled Cole. Hey, that year turned out pretty well, but not so much because of Cole.

The beginning of this year needed a change that no one could stomach. Rod Brind'Amour to the front office. 

The beginning of next year needs a top 4 defenseman, a third line center, and a top winger.  How do we get these on our budget?

I am not a cap/budget guy, but the lost salaries of Corvo, Whitney, Cole, Sammy, Cullen, Wallin, Walker, and even maybe part of Brind'Amour should leave room for those three things. This team will likely have the budget salaries of Sutter, Boychuk, Tlusty, McBain, Carson, and others.

Here's another thought for JR/PK. There will be return on investment for putting out a decent product this year. The fan excitement is building, a sell out closed a meaningless year, we have the All Star game, bring in a couple of key veteran's and this team could be decent. After last year, even being in the running for a playoff spot could fill the RBC center. Not to mention the potential playoff revenue. If you build it they will come.

If you rely on Cole/Sammy/Whitney/Brindy and then a gaggle of unproven players and the team nose dives...don't count on many filled seats.

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......If you rely on Cole/Sammy/Whitney/Brindy and then a gaggle of unproven players and the team nose dives...don't count on many filled seats.

^^ That!

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I would not put the possibility of buying out Sammy and/or Cole out.  I like them both, but if you replace them with a Boychuk or Tlusty you come out slightly ahead in money (since the buyout is 2/3 of salary with the cap hit spread out over two years), and you free up space to play youngsters.  You do lose the services of the bouyout player, but if his service weren't an issue, you wouldn't be buying him out. 

I don't know if JR will do that.  you might be able to move Cole for a low round pick or fringe prospect.  Don't think the same for Samsonov, give the 2.8 mil salary...

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Could we ask for more form the young guys still playing???  http://www.albanyriverrats.com/news/latest/index.html?article_id=2129

Osala, Tlusty, McBain, Peters, Boychuck all putting it together as the Rats look to make a run at it...we have reason to be pretty optimisic about the future of this team.  Just one or two small pieces and we will be in good shape for 2010-2011. 

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I agree and posted it many times back then. But I'll go even further. The time might have been pre-playoff trade deadline a year ago. Our tade deadline move, hailed as the big move of the time was to get Cole back. Well he did nothing in the playoffs, nor since. That was the time to be a buyer and go for it, but JR recycled Cole. Hey, that year turned out pretty well, but not so much because of Cole.

The beginning of this year needed a change that no one could stomach. Rod Brind'Amour to the front office. 

The beginning of next year needs a top 4 defenseman, a third line center, and a top winger.  How do we get these on our budget?

I am not a cap/budget guy, but the lost salaries of Corvo, Whitney, Cole, Sammy, Cullen, Wallin, Walker, and even maybe part of Brind'Amour should leave room for those three things. This team will likely have the budget salaries of Sutter, Boychuk, Tlusty, McBain, Carson, and others.

Here's another thought for JR/PK. There will be return on investment for putting out a decent product this year. The fan excitement is building, a sell out closed a meaningless year, we have the All Star game, bring in a couple of key veteran's and this team could be decent. After last year, even being in the running for a playoff spot could fill the RBC center. Not to mention the potential playoff revenue. If you build it they will come.

If you rely on Cole/Sammy/Whitney/Brindy and then a gaggle of unproven players and the team nose dives...don't count on many filled seats.

 
You won't get any arguments from me on the Cole thing.  I believe JR re-signed him to a 2 year deal after 

Cole produced 0 goals in 18 playoff games.  If one can indeed use the word 'produced' in that context.

OK, you've posed the question:  The beginning of next year needs a top 4 defenseman, a third line center,

and a top winger.  How do we get these on our budget?   Short answer is ... we don't.  I'd look for someone that

passes as a top-4 d-man, Jokinen playing center instead of wing, and maybe Boychuk getting first shot as a scoring

line winger.  (That's not what I would do, by the way, but that's what I expect to be done).

There are currently 8 forwards on 1-way contracts that are on the team (barring some moves):  Staal, Jokinen, Ruutu,

Cole, Samsonov, LaRose, Kostopoulos, and Brind'Amour.  Add in Sutter and Dwyer (both on 2-ways) and that's 10

forwards already on the team.  Whitney would like to come back, and he likely will, but probably only if Brind'Amour

takes a job in the front office.  That's the only thing that makes sense money-wise.  It'll be one or the other - not both.

Here's a projected lineup (assuming Brind'Amour takes a job within the organization):

Whitney..........Staal...........Ruutu

Boychuk.........Jokinen.......Cole

Samsonov......Sutter..........Kostopoulos

Tlusty.............Dwyer........LaRose

Gleason...........McBain

Pitkanen..........(TBA)

Picard.............Carson

Rodney or Harrison as the 7th d-man

Cam Ward and Legace or Peters

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I may be alone on this and thats fine but,

1.) To me Cam was no highlight of last year. Don't get me wrong Cam is my favorite player but to me he was over shadowed by his amateur peers. His %age does'nt make sense to what I saw. Not to mention he was out alot this past season.

2.) Bring babs back. The guy has a wicked slap shot and an attitude to match but attitudes can change. He would fit in again well and help boost the D on the team. Maybe put him with some of the AHL guys. He has been a proven player.

Disclaimer: I am still fairly new to hockey and try to keep track of whats going on. Please inform me of any ignorance I may be displaying.

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The beginning of next year needs a top 4 defenseman, a third line center, and a top winger.

How do we get these on our budget?

  

The quickest, easiest, and cheapest way would be: bring back Babchuk, play Jokinen at center, and give Boychuk a shot at wing.

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[quote name='davidrabbit wrote:


remkin']
The beginning of next year needs a top 4 defenseman, a third line center, and a top winger.

How do we get these on our budget?

  

The quickest, easiest, and cheapest way would be: bring back Babchuk, play Jokinen at center, and give Boychuk a shot at wing.

That would certainly be a quick fix but I'd prefer them bring back Matt Cullen.  I think legend said it, every time we lose him he leaves a hole that can't be filled and he's showing Ottawa right now what a savy and versatile veteran player he is in the playoffs.  Jussi has proven he can play in a top line role, I still think Babchuk will end up a sign and trade (unless JR has no takers) and I'm not convinced that Boychuk is ready for prime time yet and couldn't benefit from more AHL time this season.

Based on JR's latest comments, I think he'll work from within and wait out free agency to see what veteran hidden treasures he can find.

  

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I'm still waiting on Boychuk to break out.  I really think he could use another year in Charlotte (that sounds so weird).  He's a winger so don't look for him to fill in as our third line center. In addition, he can't show his skills on a checking line.  I want Cullen back in a bad way but the show he is putting on for Ottawa in the playoffs might make him too expensive for the Canes, even if he wants to come back.  I think another dark horse to consider would be Zac Dalpe if Cullen doesn't return.  Otherwise, there's always the fringe player or project JR might find in September (yuk, we have seen how that turns out before).

What's up with Sampson?  He's getting no love from JR, despite the year he is having in Albany.

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[quote name=coastal_caniac]I'm still waiting on Boychuk to break out.  I really think he could use another year in Charlotte (that sounds so weird).  He's a winger so don't look for him to fill in as our third line center. In addition, he can't show his skills on a checking line.  I want Cullen back in a bad way but the show he is putting on for Ottawa in the playoffs might make him too expensive for the Canes, even if he wants to come back.  I think another dark horse to consider would be Zac Dalpe if Cullen doesn't return.  Otherwise, there's always the fringe player or project JR might find in September (yuk, we have seen how that turns out before).

What's up with Sampson?  He's getting no love from JR, despite the year he is having in Albany.

I'm with you, I want to see Matt Cullen re-signed but I bet Ottawa won't let him go too easily.  Cullen is one of those vets who has so much to offer  and lots of experience but doesn't have to be flashy or the best player on the ice to make a difference.

We probably need to take the discussions about the Albany kids to another thread to keep this one on topic.

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The issue I find with playing Jussi as the 3rd line center to fill that hole is that then we have a hole open up on the top line.  We could play someone like Dalpe or Boychuck on the top line, but I think most would prefer to slot them in on the 2nd or 3rd line to allow them to get their feet wet.  I don't think we'll get a real feel on who may make the lineup next year until we see where JR chooses to go in the draft.

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I agree completely with bringing Cullen back. He is an invaluable third line center. If he has a deep run in the playoffs, however, he might get tempted like he did after our cup win to think he is a second line center. I think he has the skills, but just hasn't put up the numbers consistently enough. If so, he might be too rich for JR's blood.

If we could afford Cullen back, and get a solid veteran winger for the top line, and trade Cole and Sammy. Our top 9 could be:

Jokinen-Staal-"Top Line Veteran proven point getter"

Ruutu-Sutter-LaRose (Whitney?)

Boychuk-Cullen-Tlusty (Bowman/Dalphe)

Not to mention that our number 7 (or higher) pick at forward might be able to make the team.

I think that if Cam is good to go and our defense comes together, that team could win now.

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Not a fan of bringing Cullen back.  The 3rd line needs to be nothing but young guys for development purposes.  Team needs 1st line wingers to compliment Staal. 

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That would be a great lineup, but I don't see us picking up both Cullen and a top line winger this year.

Cullen is the guaranteed 50-60 point scorer we are going to need to replace losing Whitney's points, but I think then you run into the problem of a glut of quality Centers, and not enough quality Wingers.  Of course, we know he fits in with this team, whereas with a new guy, that would be a question-mark.

As bad as the Hurricanes started out last year, they still finished 13th in the league in scoring.  If we can count on the young forwards continuing to improve, and McBain turns out to be the real deal scoring-wise, then the offense may not really need many major additions.

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I just feel like to be a legit Stanley Cup contender we are going to need another big scorer. I think with the lineup we have now, regardless of who take early in the draft, we can be a very good team and a team that depending on how the young guys do - a very dangerous team. We have youth, speed and stars in the right positions. I would love to have Cullen back, but if it comes down to Cullen or a top line winger I'd take that top line winger. I doubt we have enough money for that or spaces for that with Sammy and Cole though. I'm hoping guys like whoever we take in the draft, Boychuck, Bowman and Dalpe all really shine in camp and give us a lot of offensive confidence heading into next year.

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That would certainly be a quick fix but I'd prefer them bring back Matt Cullen.  I think legend said it, every time we lose him he leaves a hole that can't be filled and he's showing Ottawa right now what a savy and versatile veteran player he is in the playoffs.  Jussi has proven he can play in a top line role, I still think Babchuk will end up a sign and trade (unless JR has no takers) and I'm not convinced that Boychuk is ready for prime time yet and couldn't benefit from more AHL time this season.

Based on JR's latest comments, I think he'll work from within and wait out free agency to see what veteran hidden treasures he can find.

  

It's best, in my opinion, to take one step back in order to take two steps forward later.  I would look within the organization

first to fill holes rather than relying on average free agent signings or veteran additions looking for one last NHL paycheck.

Matt Cullen is the type of solid 3rd line center that a good team needs.  A team looking to make an impact in the playoffs.

That is not the kind of player I see JR bringing in at this point in time.  I think it's much more probable that Whitney re-signs

than the liklihood of Cullen returning.  The least of which is now may not be the time to pay a 3rd line center nearly $3 million. 

Jussi has done well as a 1st line winger - and as a 2nd line center.  Sutter would be a classic defensive-minded 3rd line center. 

Cullen's production is a bit ahead of Sutter now ... he's a better puckhandler and passer, but that will change as Sutter matures. 

Basically, Sutter's fast development made Cullen expendable.  To bring him back, while not out of the realm of possibility,

doesn't make complete sense to me.

It's hard to place faith in someone with little or no track record - and more time in the AHL would benefit Boychuk.  But he's

more advanced than Bowman and whoever has a better training camp may very well get first shot at 2nd line left wing.  There

will be a pretty steep learning curve and they'll probably shuttle back and forth to Charlotte -- but they need to get started now

because the big changes at forward will come next summer,  when JR is replacing Samsonov, Cole, maybe Brind'Amour????,

maybe Kostopoulos, or Dwyer, perhaps even Ray Whitney ... and, in one of the signs of the apocalypse ... Jussi Jokinen.

But that's next summer.

Back to Boychuk and Bowman.  The offense will prabably be kinda hit and miss.  Both will get lost at times in their own zone. 

But they will provide Selke-like defense compared to ..... Anton Babchuk.

There are probably several teams around the league enamored with his 16-goal performance in '09.  At least, one can hope.  If

I remember, JR wanted to trade him before, but was asking too much.  A 2nd-rounder.  Other teams were offering a #3, so JR

was willing to wait.  Well the wait is over.  If he returns to the 'Canes, I have a feeling not much has changed.  Good offensively,

but you have to take him by the hand and show him where his defensive zone is.  As the playoffs wore on in '09, his playing time

decreased until, I believe, he was scratched for the entire Pittsburgh series.  And it's doubtful that he learned anything in Russia.

If he returns to the 'Canes, what you'll see (against a team with big wingers) is them shooting the puck in - then pummeling Babs

(as he doesn't use his size well) and several other Hurricane defensemen ... most notably Picard ... in the corners, winning the

battle for the puck and either starting a cycle, or feeding the puck to a cutting forward for a point-blank shot on goal. 

If Babchuk WOULD win a race to the puck (blind squirrel finding an acorn), he then would be responsible for making a safe, 

quick and accurate transition pass to a player wearing - and this is important - a Carolina Hurricane jersey.  Problematic, at best.

That said, there aren't a lot of options ...... so, JR will give him a 2-year deal at $1m per (with a NTC?)  smile.gif

  

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I am not a cap/budget guy, but the lost salaries of Corvo, Whitney, Cole, Sammy, Cullen, Wallin, Walker, and even maybe part of Brind'Amour should leave room for those three things. This team will likely have the budget salaries of Sutter, Boychuk, Tlusty, McBain, Carson, and others.

Here's another thought for JR/PK. There will be return on investment for putting out a decent product this year. The fan excitement is building, a sell out closed a meaningless year, we have the All Star game, bring in a couple of key veteran's and this team could be decent. After last year, even being in the running for a playoff spot could fill the RBC center. Not to mention the potential playoff revenue. If you build it they will come.

If you rely on Cole/Sammy/Whitney/Brindy and then a gaggle of unproven players and the team nose dives...don't count on many filled seats.

I think the cap hit of the 15 players currently under contract totals about $41.5m . That's counting Samsonov, Brind'Amour and

Cole until they leave.  Which is just above the minimum you're allowed to have for a total.  Since most of the other players that

will fill roster spots are on 2-ways, that figure won't rise too much.  So, yeah, there's plenty to spend on free agents - and still

keep the budget eerily similar to last year.   But first, let's decide the direction of the organization.

  

Which is the team doing this summer - reloading or rebuilding?  That's a rhetorical question.  The answer is ... neither.  You can't

reload a team that's missed the playoffs 3 of the last 4 years.  That would be like reloading an empty pistol with blanks.  But, we

are not rebuilding either.  After all, the team wasn't gutted at the trade deadline.  Trading a couple of fourth-liners and some depth

defensemen isn't a firesale.  The only 2 guys of any consequence that were traded were, coincidently, the only 2 that brought an

above-average return:  Corvo and Cullen.  Ottawa's #2 draft pick should fall at or near 48th overall.  Osala and the Caps 2011 

2nd-rounder has potential if Osala develops into a scoring line winger.  A true firesale, tho, would have included some of the names

that are causing majors questions now like Whitney, Samsonov and Cole.  It's the classic half-ashed attempt to change but keep

everything the same by covering your bases.  

 

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Cap numbers as they stand

We lost about 8 mil in cap hit with all the trading of veterans.  Of course the cap number is going to be a little off from the salary numbers as JR traded them mid season. If Brindy retired, and Cole and Samsonov were moved JR could be looking at another 9 mil in salary cap loss but a 8.8mil loss in salary.  The team would be sitting at 33.5 mil salary cap hit with only Staal, Jokinen, Sutter, Kosto, Larose, and Ruutu on O; Pitkanen, Gleason, and McBain on contract on D; and Ward in goal.  Of course we suspect that we be having 3 Checkers play on O for us.  Boychuk would add a 1.01 mil hit, Tlusty would be re-signed for around 950k cap hit, and 3rd winger (draft or checker) would be around the same.  So that would take the cap up to 36.5 mil.  Babchuk would be around a 2 year 1.2 mil cap hit.  JR could look to spend around 650k ro re-sign one of back ups from this year in goal.
So we would be looking at around a 38.2 mil cap hit with this roster:
             Staal-
 Ruutu- Sutter-Jokinen
Dr/Ch-Boychuk-Tlusty
           Larose-Kosto

Pitkanen-
Gleason-McBain
Babs-

Ward
Leighton/Peters/Legace

Now it depends on what we do on D. Do we go get another FA or just have those 4 as the top 4 and have 2 checkers with us.  IF 2 checkers then we are looking at adding another 1.4 mil in cap hit or around 700k hit if we add one checker and go after a FA.  As far as the O goes we could add one more young guy to 4th line if so it will be around another 800k cap hit.  We would be looking at 40.4 mil hit with all but the 2 top wingers chosen (or one if Jokinen plays the top line and another Checkers plays 2nd line).  40.4 is about 6.7 mil short our this past seasons cap hit to fill 2 wingers.  Of course Frolov's name is out there he will cost about 5.5 mil, there are a couple of RFAs like Chris stewart JR could trade for, and then Patrick Kane is an option as the Blackhawks will have plenty of holes and only a couple of million to fill those holes. Kane would cost a 6.25 cap hit but the price could be high but not as high as it might be as they need to move a big cap hit.

This is just a huge numbers game and I hope I didn't confuse anyone.

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I think the rebuild vs. reload is a pretty good analogy of what I am getting at. If we are in a full on rebuild, then next year we can drop Cole and or Sammy for picks/prospects and just go with all yutes and just see how it goes. If we do poorly, we get another good pick and can make a move the following year. I don't think we need to do this. I get a weird sense JR may be willing to to this. I hope not.

If we are in a quasi rebuild/reload, which is what I think, then we need to make a couple of key veteran moves and then play the kids in the remaining spots. The most key of key moves is that top winger. That makes us instantly credible and a playoff contender.

I happen to think that a solid third line center would give us solidity at the center position on all three top lines which would make us that much more formidable.

I hope we can make those two moves which would include losing the salary of Cole, Whitney, Sammy and maybe Brind'Amour to go with the already lost salaries of Corvo and Wallin.

I am far from confident that JR will do this, but I think a playoff appearance next year would solidify this fan base for a long long time.

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After watching Cullen in this playoff series with Pittsburgh, I would rather have Cullen than Cole, Samsonov or Whitney (at 38). 

Of course price matters, but get Cullen back is what I'm saying.

Then get that winger.

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I think the rebuild vs. reload is a pretty good analogy of what I am getting at. If we are in a full on rebuild, then next year we can drop Cole and or Sammy for picks/prospects and just go with all yutes and just see how it goes. If we do poorly, we get another good pick and can make a move the following year. I don't think we need to do this. I get a weird sense JR may be willing to to this. I hope not.

If we are in a quasi rebuild/reload, which is what I think, then we need to make a couple of key veteran moves and then play the kids in the remaining spots. The most key of key moves is that top winger. That makes us instantly credible and a playoff contender.

I happen to think that a solid third line center would give us solidity at the center position on all three top lines which would make us that much more formidable.

I hope we can make those two moves which would include losing the salary of Cole, Whitney, Sammy and maybe Brind'Amour to go with the already lost salaries of Corvo and Wallin.

I am far from confident that JR will do this, but I think a playoff appearance next year would solidify this fan base for a long long time.

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I think the rebuild vs. reload is a pretty good analogy of what I am getting at. If we are in a full on rebuild, then next year we can drop Cole and or Sammy for picks/prospects and just go with all yutes and just see how it goes. If we do poorly, we get another good pick and can make a move the following year. I don't think we need to do this. I get a weird sense JR may be willing to to this. I hope not.

If we are in a quasi rebuild/reload, which is what I think, then we need to make a couple of key veteran moves and then play the kids in the remaining spots. The most key of key moves is that top winger. That makes us instantly credible and a playoff contender.

I happen to think that a solid third line center would give us solidity at the center position on all three top lines which would make us that much more formidable.

I hope we can make those two moves which would include losing the salary of Cole, Whitney, Sammy and maybe Brind'Amour to go with the already lost salaries of Corvo and Wallin.

I am far from confident that JR will do this, but I think a playoff appearance next year would solidify this fan base for a long long time.

I have no problem with re-signing Cullen.  Moving Cole and Samsonov is something I'd have to see to believe. 

They're not untradeable, but they are the next closest thing.  It's the AWard Syndrome where they make too

much money - with too many questions regarding injury and productivity - to move until the deadline.  If then.

Since they're probably going to stay, it magnifies the problem that keeps this thing from being either a rebuild

or a reload.  Cole's hands have turned to stone.  He's not the first to have this happen and he won't be the last. 

Samsonov isn't a top-6 forward anymore, yet he isn't a 3rd or 4th-liner either.  So, both of these guys are taking

valuable icetime away from developing guys like Boychuk, Bowman and Dalpe.  Having Whitney and Brind'Amour

leave will help the situation a little.  The problem with adding other free agents forwards, obviously, is that would

further retard the development of the kids and ability to continue to move forward with the youth movement.  Not

to say that shouldn't be done, but some of the 'Canes currently under contract would have to go.

There's been too many plain vanilla transactions for too long.  It's time to make some major moves and then find

a starting place for building the stability of the organization.  Making the playoffs should be an annual occurrance

even considering parity.  It's hard to have a team identity and stability when it seems that people can't make up

their minds as to which way to go.  JR seems to be hedging his bet between the promise of the young guys and

the familiarity/stability of the vets.  Which makes the upcoming season potentially similar to the past one.  Maybe

not as bi-polar, but the results would, in all liklihood, be the same.  And that is a waste of time, money and effort.

   

  

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