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TheBigKahuna

We knew Karmanos wanted to sell 49%...but is e trying to sell it all?

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Might as well post this one here too for discussion:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/david-shoalts/nhl-salary-cap-expected-to-increase/article1825832/

At the board of governor's meetings, apparently it has been made semi public that Karmanos would really like to sell the entire team, not just the 49 per cent that belongs to the estate of a deceased partner.

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Wonder what validity this has? As long as the team stays put, I don't have a problem with who owns it. I would hate to see it leave Raleigh, since I think the next 5 years could be good for the sport in this area with it gaining ground in Charlotte with the AHL base, and in South Carolina with two ECHL teams who are both doing well this year. Hmmmm... Guess time will tell.

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Wonder what validity this has? As long as the team stays put, I don't have a problem with who owns it. I would hate to see it leave Raleigh, since I think the next 5 years could be good for the sport in this area with it gaining ground in Charlotte with the AHL base, and in South Carolina with two ECHL teams who are both doing well this year. Hmmmm... Guess time will tell.

That is the most important part of all this..isn't it?

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This kind of makes me nervous for a couple of reasons. 1, I want the team to stay like all of you, and I really don't want to see someone buy the team who is not committed to keeping them in Raleigh. 2, remember the Lightning "owners" from about 3 years ago and how they literally ran the team into the ground?, yeah I don't want that either. I want someone who is committed to keeping the team here in Raleigh and is committed to winning.

It sounds like from the article, that PK isn't desperate to sell the team, so maybe I'm just jumping to conclusions too early. But here's a ?, aside from Jim Goodnight, who in the Carolina's could be a potential buyer?

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I follow this stuff very closely and especially Winnipeg. This has been hot reads in Canada since it looks like the PHX deal will close so all eyse are moving to the Thrashers, which 70% of the Canadians think will be in Winnipeg next year which I promise you will not happen. This article is aimed at Canadians who eat this stuff up.

Now, not to say PK would not sell the whole team. By the little he has said, he wanted to sell 49% and he stated people were not interested in buying a minority part at 49% but he might sell less than that. But I am sure there are people who have looked at owning more since they would have control.

Does it worry me...you bet. I thiink PK is a good owner and has done well with this area after some rough years. The issue is Raleigh is not a $60M payroll hockey city. If you look at the rev numbers that have come out, buying this team is not a profitable venture and with the mid-term CBA coming up, not sure what the players will want and what will happen with rev sharing. the issues with the current CBA is the floor which is $40M and going up.

The Canes have a petty rock solid lease for 14 more years which is good. The NHL would fight any attempt to moce but after the PHX battle and then what looks like the Thrasher battle coming, not sure how much fight the NHL will have. Winnipeg wants a team on the cheap and the only way they can make it work. QC has to have an arena built which is still open and not certain at this point.

There is still FLA, St Louis, NY Islanders along with Dallas and others.

I would like to see some locals look at it but most of them are older. It helps their business to have a pro team here to help draw talent but when you look at GOodnight (SAS), Gillings (Quintiles), Goodman (Capital Brodcasting) Sloan (General Parts/Carquest) and Lonnie Poole (Waste Industries), they all have moeny but are older and have enough to leave their kids. Need young near billionaires but not sure the Triangle has many of those.

The NHL has been able to find owners but what scares me is when just a few to go around, NC and Raleigh might be one location they give up instead of ATL or FLA or Dallas or StL. But not sure.

I use to worrry but no longer. The Canes will be here for a while and as the economy gets better, so does Canes Rev which is good for the canes. Winnipeg's chanses go down as they are looking for team on the cheap. Winnipeg backer is one of the richest guys in the world but the business case requires buying a team on the cheap or in total disrepair. As Salary cap goes up, the Pegs chances go down. And to be honest, QC is a corp wasteland but either the NHL/Quebec thinks it can work or the NHL is using them as a pawn. I just don't see QC filling suites and great corporate support but you really don't it see that in the sunbelt either. But at least the corps are in the sunbelt to mine.

Edited by ThunderBall

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I follow this stuff very closely and especially Winnipeg. This has been hot reads in Canada since it looks like the PHX deal will close so all eyse are moving to the Thrashers, which 70% of the Canadians think will be in Winnipeg next year which I promise you will not happen. This article is aimed at Canadians who eat this stuff up.

Now, not to say PK would not sell the whole team. By the little he has said, he wanted to sell 49% and he stated people were not interested in buying a minority part at 49% but he might sell less than that. But I am sure there are people who have looked at owning more since they would have control.

Does it worry me...you bet. I thiink PK is a good owner and has done well with this area after some rough years. The issue is Raleigh is not a $60M payroll hockey city. If you look at the rev numbers that have come out, buying this team is not a profitable venture and with the mid-term CBA coming up, not sure what the players will want and what will happen with rev sharing. the issues with the current CBA is the floor which is $40M and going up.

The Canes have a petty rock solid lease for 14 more years which is good. The NHL would fight any attempt to moce but after the PHX battle and then what looks like the Thrasher battle coming, not sure how much fight the NHL will have. Winnipeg wants a team on the cheap and the only way they can make it work. QC has to have an arena built which is still open and not certain at this point.

There is still FLA, St Louis, NY Islanders along with Dallas and others.

I would like to see some locals look at it but most of them are older. It helps their business to have a pro team here to help draw talent but when you look at GOodnight (SAS), Gillings (Quintiles), Goodman (Capital Brodcasting) Sloan (General Parts/Carquest) and Lonnie Poole (Waste Industries), they all have moeny but are older and have enough to leave their kids. Need young near billionaires but not sure the Triangle has many of those.

The NHL has been able to find owners but what scares me is when just a few to go around, NC and Raleigh might be one location they give up instead of ATL or FLA or Dallas or StL. But not sure.

I use to worrry but no longer. The Canes will be here for a while and as the economy gets better, so does Canes Rev and so does the opportunity for Winnipeg who has one of the richest guys in the world as a backer but the business case requires buying a team on teh cheap or in total disrepair.

Good insight and I also thought the article had a Canadian "slant" to it. Last night on NESN they were pretty sure that the next franchise to go through the relocation battle like Phoenix will most likely be Atlanta. Even with the team playing well and sitting in 5th place in the conference, they're struggling to put 11,000 +/- in the building on any given night and although they seem to have settled their coaching and GM issues, the NESN guys said that appeared that no one cared and with only one visit to the playoffs since 1999 when the team was awarded to Atlanta, they've not shown any signs of developing and improving their fanbase/sponsorship.

I hope this isn't the case for the fans in Atlanta.

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The main thing to look at is ownership issues. I think that is why so many target Atlanta, aside from attendance. Atlanta's ownership is still a mess. On the other hand, Atlanta's group also has going for them that they own the arena, which can help cover the losses of the team.

Karmanos is unlikely to sell to someone who might move, and it is even less likely the league would allow such a move. Carolina is one of the few non-traditional market success stories, such as they are. I saw the list of this year's attendance numbers/percentages recently (not sure where), and about 19-20 teams are around 95% or higher. Of the rest, the Canes were second (around 21-22nd overall) at about 82%. Not great but not bad. Not worried here.

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The main thing to look at is ownership issues. I think that is why so many target Atlanta, aside from attendance. Atlanta's ownership is still a mess. On the other hand, Atlanta's group also has going for them that they own the arena, which can help cover the losses of the team.

Karmanos is unlikely to sell to someone who might move, and it is even less likely the league would allow such a move. Carolina is one of the few non-traditional market success stories, such as they are. I saw the list of this year's attendance numbers/percentages recently (not sure where), and about 19-20 teams are around 95% or higher. Of the rest, the Canes were second (around 21-22nd overall) at about 82%. Not great but not bad. Not worried here.

Not too worried either for much of the same reasons. Even though we've had some pretty challenging seasons, we've also had lots of success that many bigger traditional markets would kill for. No where in anything that I read does it say that Karmanos wants out 100%, but I'm sure everyone has a price. Its been made very clear he's looking for a minority partner to fill the vacant partnership but I haven' heard or seen anything (outside of Canadian media) that says he's ready to bail.

Not to mention with the Panthers and Thrashers struggling, the NHL needs one of their "sunbelt" teams to have a happy ending.

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Interesting update from the Triangle Business Journal:

Karmanos Willing to Form a Minority Investor Group for Canes

Triangle Business Journal - by Chris Baysden

RALEIGH – Carolina Hurricanes owner Peter Karmanos is working to assemble a team of 20 to 30 investors who would put up about $2 million each to buy a minority stake in the franchise, and he projects that an announcement on such an ownership group could come within the next 60 to 90 days.

“We’re pretty far along,” says Karmanos, who declines to reveal the identity of any investors. “The response has been very good.”

Full article here

I can think of at least 5-6 folks who have some personal reasons to jump on board and make this investment ;)

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It was the same scenario when Atlanta had the Flames. So what makes anybody think the situation won't repeat itself? The writing was on the wall when Atlanta got the Thrashers.

I agree. You look at Sunday's game. It's got a playoff atmosphere, a division rival, playing for 8th place with only 2 months left in the season. 5pm start is great for getting families there. They even had a replica jersey giveaway promotion.

And then only 13k (70%) attendance. On TV the place looked empty.

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Interesting update from the Triangle Business Journal:

Karmanos Willing to Form a Minority Investor Group for Canes

Triangle Business Journal - by Chris Baysden

RALEIGH – Carolina Hurricanes owner Peter Karmanos is working to assemble a team of 20 to 30 investors who would put up about $2 million each to buy a minority stake in the franchise, and he projects that an announcement on such an ownership group could come within the next 60 to 90 days.

“We’re pretty far along,” says Karmanos, who declines to reveal the identity of any investors. “The response has been very good.”

Full article here

I can think of at least 5-6 folks who have some personal reasons to jump on board and make this investment ;)

Interesting.

Always thought that was the problem with trying to sell 49% to one Person- anyone that can afford 49% of the team will WANT CONTROLLING interest for is $80+ million invested and not have PK spend and make all decisions he wants.So that was never going to happen

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2010/31/hockey-valuations-10_Carolina-Hurricanes_316561.html

BUT instead, for $2 mill, you can become a part owner and get some Prop's and Publicity for that( maybe even a discout on a luxery box..lol)- and for those in that income strata $2 mill not a big deal, so can see finding 20-30 people like that in raleigh much easier than 1, 49% owner... and for $2 mill, you don't mind not having final say..

And on the "group" idea typically its a LLC, meaning that unlike a 49% sole partner, that would have to fund any losses each year if canes do not make money, a LLC group typically will be exempt from that and PK would fund any losses( and take in most of the profit), the LLC gains usually come from selling the shares in the future for more

Edited by canes-in-7

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More from Chip and the N & O:

Karmanos: Canes to have local investors

Carolina Hurricanes majority owner Peter Karmanos Jr. said today that an agreement to bring in as many as 20 to 30 local investors in the NHL team could be finalized and announced in the next 30 to 90 days.

Karmanos said the investors — he declined to give any names -- were willing to put up between $1 million and $3 million apiece. He said the group would own roughly 30 percent of the NHL team and that he would continue to control the other 70 percent.

"I've always felt it was important for the team to have local investors," Karmanos said in an interview. "There are a lot of people in Raleigh and the Triangle who believe the team is very important to the community. It will be great for the team, great for the community and further establish hockey in the state of North Carolina."

Full article here

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I find it interesting that he set a $240 million price tag, which is about 50% over the Forbes guess, and has about 20-30 people buying into that number. Obviously the Forbes numbers are meaningless, as I believe I argued elsewhere. ;)

It'll be interesting to see who buys in. Would be nice to see some of the upper management guys buy in as that would indicate they are here for the long term. I would guess that one of them is JR, not sure how he's set up but he was a member of the original partnership (KTR) so he must still own a part.

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could any of the former Canes players who have retired have deep enough pockets to make such an investment?

I think that's a strong possibility.

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well, i can say that i would not be a happy camper if we lost the team. as much as they deride us, i honestly think that we have one of the best, if not best, fan base in the nhl. its not a large market but we have a good attendance # in comparison. we have been around long enough to have a history. we have started our own traditions. we have won the big prize when no one gave us a chance in hell. the players, for the most part, like it here. they can walk down a street without being mobbed. we are the loudest house around the league. and to finish, it would hurt my feelings....

Edited by dreadedcaniac

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The Canes aren't going anywhere. They have a long-term lease at the RBC Ceneter and PK would have to cough-up mega-bucks to move the team. If they were to move, there are no greener pastures as which to move.

The question that remains to be asked is the financial stability of the team. Because Gale-Force Holdings is a private company, financial disclosure is not a requirement. But I am sure this is a question financial suitors will be asking.

No sane person stays in a buisness that continues to lose money. Unless for that person, the business is a very expensive play-toy. This seems to be the case for most uber-wealthy francise owners (Jerry Jones, George Steinbrener,....). Don't think that PK falls into that category

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well, that i am glad of. we( me and my wife) would go to games as dates, or to a sports bar for away games. it is a tradition now of when we go to games, we stop at cookout afterwards, and every time we go, i always forget that i carry a leatherman, buck knife, and two pocket knives and a flashlight, so we have to hide it all in her pocketbook(excluding the flashlight). we also take our dslr camera and get really good photos. its a bottom rung pro camera, so it does pretty well.

i have holes in the walls because of the canes. broke my hand twice in the process. funny thing is they called a social worker in to talk to me and my wife, separately. they thought i was abusing jenn :facepalm2: . i am a passionate fan, and i would not be a happy camper if they left.

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