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coastal_caniac

The Official 2011-12 Off-Season Thread

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With respect to Brian Dumoulin I don't follow NCAA hockey so I'm not all that familiar with him, but based on scouting reports while he is big (6"3 205) and defensively responsible, my understanding was that he was projected more as an "offensive-minded play-maker type." Which is great, but I'd like to see us get a big, physical, defenseman with a mean-streak. If not Allen, someone else.

No one is arguing with you, everyone likes big, physical defensman. We are just asking you to consider the framework within which he was acquired, and that was to help us push for the playoffs. It didn't happen, we resigned Pits, then Kaberle. The general concensus around here seems to be that he's not ready for prime-time in the top-4. Why pay him that money when we can use Harrison and Joslin in the role he's likely regulated to for 1/3 of the money.

Dumoulin also made the USA Hockey U-18 squad, and is projected to be a first pairing defensman. Most of those guys are pretty darn good on both ends of the ice. As far as his college career, his plus-minus was sick, and most projections find it hard to ignore it.

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No one is arguing with you, everyone likes big, physical defensman. We are just asking you to consider the framework within which he was acquired, and that was to help us push for the playoffs. It didn't happen, we resigned Pits, then Kaberle. The general concensus around here seems to be that he's not ready for prime-time in the top-4. Why pay him that money when we can use Harrison and Joslin in the role he's likely regulated to for 1/3 of the money.

Dumoulin also made the USA Hockey U-18 squad, and is projected to be a first pairing defensman. Most of those guys are pretty darn good on both ends of the ice. As far as his college career, his plus-minus was sick, and most projections find it hard to ignore it.

I think you, along with everyone else who has weighed-in make fair points, and it is not my intention to be argumentative. However, I still have to question the logic of trading Allen prior to the start of the season. I'm not entirely sold on the idea that Allen was brought on merely as a rental for a playoff push, and I don't think the fact that he had a year left on his contact, or the fact that he waived a no-movement clause to come here, supports that idea.

In the alternative, if he was brought in to play in the top four and the team has determined it didn't "work out," I don't follow that logic either. Given that Allen only played in 19 games, I don't think that represents a sufficient sample size to determine that he's not top-4 material. Given that he was plus 4, and filled a need for us, I don't think his performance indicates that he's not top-4 quality either. I agree that at $3M he was underutilized, but ultimately that was a coaching decision. He averaged 19+ min. of TOI in Flordia, which is comparable with the time Gleason gets, so he is capable of logging bigger minutes.

I'm going to have to put on my flame-retardant suit for this one, but I'd move McBain out of the top-4 before I would bump Allen. It's clear that we need a more balanced defense. McBain will likely improve his plus/minus over time, but given the defensive inconsistency of our top-4, we can't afford to have someone who's learning on the job log big and critical minutes.

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I'm going to have to put on my flame-retardant suit for this one, but I'd move McBain out of the top-4 before I would bump Allen. It's clear that we need a more balanced defense. McBain will likely improve his plus/minus over time, but given the defensive inconsistency of our top-4, we can't afford to have someone who's learning on the job log big and critical minutes.

Then who do you sit as a healthy scratch?

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I think that the discussion on this issue has been excellent. Points well made and not personal.

The other half of this potential deal that gets little attention is the return. Any trade would bring something back this way. If we are shopping Allen, we are shopping for something also. So the question is not, "Do you want to lose Allen?" The question is what can he bring and would you make that deal?

As one on record as one who thinks we need one more bone fide top 6 guy, second line center or first line winger. And as one who begrudgingly accepts our budget constraints, the only way to bring in a veteran say second line center, is to move some serious salary the other way.

Moving any forward salary of significance (LaRose excepted but probably priced out of tradability) would defeat the purpose. Thus, it would have to be a defenseman's salary. For reasons I and others have listed, going one by one down the list of defensemen, the ONLY significant salary likely to move would be Allen.

Barring a big surprise move, (like Gleason or Pits moving), in some ways about the only salary we could move would be Allen's.

In a way for any really significant move for a top 6 forward to occur it would almost HAVE to include Allen's salary.

Now move Allen's salary and say LaRose if anyone wanted it, bump in an extra million, and we'd have $5.5 million to go after a top 6 guy.

With a serious top 6 improvement, I'd be willing to try the defense without Allen.

But then again, I like offense.

And, it's probably not going to happen.

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I think you, along with everyone else who has weighed-in make fair points, and it is not my intention to be argumentative. However, I still have to question the logic of trading Allen prior to the start of the season. I'm not entirely sold on the idea that Allen was brought on merely as a rental for a playoff push, and I don't think the fact that he had a year left on his contact, or the fact that he waived a no-movement clause to come here, supports that idea.

In the alternative, if he was brought in to play in the top four and the team has determined it didn't "work out," I don't follow that logic either. Given that Allen only played in 19 games, I don't think that represents a sufficient sample size to determine that he's not top-4 material. Given that he was plus 4, and filled a need for us, I don't think his performance indicates that he's not top-4 quality either. I agree that at $3M he was underutilized, but ultimately that was a coaching decision. He averaged 19+ min. of TOI in Flordia, which is comparable with the time Gleason gets, so he is capable of logging bigger minutes.

I'm going to have to put on my flame-retardant suit for this one, but I'd move McBain out of the top-4 before I would bump Allen. It's clear that we need a more balanced defense. McBain will likely improve his plus/minus over time, but given the defensive inconsistency of our top-4, we can't afford to have someone who's learning on the job log big and critical minutes.

Here's the thing. I was just pointing out one potential reason that Allen is being shopped IF the rumor just happens to be true. I think your assuming it IS true and posting why you don't like it. It is just a rumor. :)

You do make good points regardless. But it's not like Allen came from the Wings or anything. He waved a NMC from nowheresville Florida to go to a team poised to make the playoffs. I don't like having that much pressure on McBain either, but that has nothing to do with Allen, unless you assume he's top-4 material, which I don't.

And also, welcome to the board. Hope you hang around.

Edited by coastal_caniac

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Then who do you sit as a healthy scratch?

Harrison and Joslin would compete to earn, and keep, the 6th spot. All seven defensemen are on one-way deals, so barring a move someone will have to sit. Obviously, injuries typically occur so opportunities may open up.

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Harrison and Joslin would compete to earn, and keep, the 6th spot. All seven defensemen are on one-way deals, so barring a move someone will have to sit. Obviously, injuries typically occur so opportunities may open up.

My money is on Mcbain to crack the top-4 to start the season, so we will just have to wait and see.

Edited by coastal_caniac

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My money is on Mcbain to crack the top-4 to start the season, so we will just have to wait and see.

I think that is the smart money. McBain has earned the right to keep a top-4. He is the best so far paired with Pits and he sure has the skill. I think he has to step it up a bit this season but IMO it is his spot to lose. One thing to watch is how well he has recovered from shoulder surgery especially in the early going. Everything I read indicates he should be good to go.

I think it was said we could carry 2 or 3 extra on the roster to start the season. If we do I wonder how MO will share the ice time. I would hate to see anybody stuck in the press box for a long stretch but at the same time this is going to be a team searching for chemistry. You need to play together to do that.

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HHR_hockey Hardy Soup

With Shea complete, Poile resumes Hemsky interest. NSH not alone however..Canes Stars Isles involved as well

Guess we're still involved with Hemsky

And the cane's offseason preview was posted today as part of NHL.coms 30 in 30 this month.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=585515&navid=mod-rr-headlines

Edited by Gejustin

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HHR_hockey Hardy Soup

With Shea complete, Poile resumes Hemsky interest. NSH not alone however..Canes Stars Isles involved as well

Guess we're still involved with Hemsky

And the cane's offseason preview was posted today as part of NHL.coms 30 in 30 this month.

http://www.nhl.com/i...od-rr-headlines

The rumor that just won't go away. I suspect we are still looking at all options.

I thought the 30 in 30 was a good analysis although I hate being called a bubble team again. It isn't that I don't believe it only I don't always like to stare reality in the face. As long as the bubble doesn't burst at the end of the season again.

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What? Did someone say Hemsky? Did I mention how much I'd love this? Let's discuss this for a while. shock.gif

I thought the 30 in 30 piece was about the best case scenario with our current line up. Very rosy, and I don't mean Chad.

Now to move us solidly into the playoffs we need one more top forward.

I wonder if JR is in the hunt for any top line wingers from Edmonton?

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HHR_hockey Hardy Soup

With Shea complete, Poile resumes Hemsky interest. NSH not alone however..Canes Stars Isles involved as well

Guess we're still involved with Hemsky

And the cane's offseason preview was posted today as part of NHL.coms 30 in 30 this month.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=585515&navid=mod-rr-headlines

Hemsky you say...that reminds me of something...oh yeah...THIS :deadhorse:

Hemsky we don't need no stinking Hemsky, but that Cullen fella...will take some more of that... :facepalm2:

Remember JR recycles Justin Williams will be next...he will. :th_Canada:

Edited by rocheccw

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Hemsky you say...that reminds me of something...oh yeah...THIS :deadhorse:

Hemsky we don't need no stinking Hemsky, but that Cullen fella...will take some more of that... :facepalm2:

Remember JR recycles Justin Williams will be next...he will. :th_Canada:

I'd take J. Willy in a heartbeat. Wasn't it basically him for Cole this last time around? Wouldn't that be justice in a way? It was O'Sullivan in that three way, who also had a Cane's uniform on for a while. Nice recycle. Let's do it.

Edited by remkin

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HHR_hockey Hardy Soup

@ @CaniacFan hemsky could be headed to Nashville or Carolina, those are the top 2 but nothing done yet bud

Sounds like they're getting close......

Yeah I asked that question and although JR usually doesn't make these kinds of moves, I think he eventually will whether it be in the offseason or during the beginning of the regular season. We have picks we can deal with an extra 2nd and 4th rounder as well as a group of prospects so I say that we beat out Nashville if it comes to a bidding war. I would rather not trade Mcbain but if we do trade him for Hemsky and end up signing him long-term, it will be worth it. We already have Joslin, Faulk, Murphy, Dumoulin, and others coming up. With a Staal/Hemsky type of first line, we are definitely in the Stanley Cup hunt so I really hope we pull the trigger on this one.

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Aug 22 - Conditioning Camp/Rosey Camp

Five weeks until training camp

Sep 19 - first pre-season game (Sabres)

Oct 6 -- start of regular NHL season

Oct 7 -- first 'Canes game

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Does anyone know when TW will start selling the NHL Center Ice package? We're also considering picking up a Roku player to stream Netflix. Does anyone have one of these and know if the deal for their NHL package is better than TW's?

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Aug 22 - Conditioning Camp/Rosey Camp

Five weeks until training camp

Sep 19 - first pre-season game (Sabres)

Oct 6 -- start of regular NHL season

Oct 7 -- first 'Canes game

THANKS Whaler1 this is the post I was looking for..."THE LIGHT AT THE END OF THE SUMMER TUNNEL" WoooHooo can't wait to see/welcome the "New Canes" old and new.

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Does anyone know when TW will start selling the NHL Center Ice package? We're also considering picking up a Roku player to stream Netflix. Does anyone have one of these and know if the deal for their NHL package is better than TW's?

If I remember correctly, the NHL option is Gamecenter on Roku. I was excited at first, until I realized blackouts would prevent me from watching anything Canes related. If you're looking for just hockey in general, then this is okay. But you'll still have to get your Canes fix on FSN.

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Does anyone else feel that the NHL needs to stretch out the schedule for the offseason a bit? I mean, the SC Finals ends in mid-June, followed closely by the draft, the awards and then FA opens up July 1. By the time we hit end of July and into August, we're all famished for hockey.

Why can't the draft be early July, the awards mid-July and FA open 8/1? That would mean at least keep hockey in the news right up until training camp opens. Maybe having less down time in the summer would help keep hockey relevant and improve its popularity.

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As each day passes it seems less and less likely that JR is going to make a significant move any time soon. Clearly I think he should and if cost were no issue he would. But cost is an issue and so it seems less likely. So while I hold out hope on that move, it is fading.

So what is the upside potential for this team as is? The problem with this team is not quite enough proven skill, which leaves more to chance than we should. But the upside is that the team could surprise and get into a position to be buyers for once at the deadline. Plus, JR has a lot of tradable assets. This team does have significant upside as is.

In a nutshell, while this team is not likely to shut anyone down defensively, we do have the chance to put up some goals, and we do have an All Star goalie, and a decent back up goalie.

We can get away with a somewhat porous defense if we:

1. Have an All Star Goalie

2. At least shut it down a little more smack dab in front of Cam.

Hopefully Gleason, Allen, Harrison can do this, with the new d coach

3. We put up goals.

I'm going to focus on #3.

Of course we need our 4 solid guys to stay relatively healthy and produce as expected:

Staal, Jokinen, Ruutu, Skinner. If healthy they will produce, period.

Sutter is a special case. While he may not be thrilled to be a shut down guy, it is a living, and makes him invaluable no matter what he produces. Still, he has proven the potential to put up 20 goals, and I really think he will again this year.

Then there are all the hopefuls. While it would be nice not to have to hope so much, there is hope there:

Poni: the guy brings the near the net presence that we need. He has put up 20 more than once. He's a pretty good bet if healthy.

Stewart: Here I rely entirely on JR and those of you who have seen him. 40 points is not terrible if he did it over a shorter period and didn't always see prime time ice. If he were a sure bet, his home team would have kept him. But this is JR's type of guy. Some work (Jussi) some don't (Hamilton). But he is big and again can provide some net presence. I detect a theme here. If he hits his potential JR gets back to genius status and we do well.

Dalpe: So far very nice AHL and College numbers. Will he be ready to break out in the NHL? Lots of hope pinned on him. Like Stewart if he is NHL ready for the top 6 it could be a much nicer year than expected.

LaRose: I've been tough on Chad this year. But in the past I've always defended him. I think he has NHL level skills, not just heart, but skills. But he is a small guy, and doesn't have the off the hook skills a small guy needs to be a first liner. Still he has put up (almost) 20 goals in the NHL, and that's not a bad guy to have on the third line. His minus 21 was an aberration. He's never been near that bad in the past. If LaRose sniffs the first line, Mo should be fired on the spot. But if he stays on the 3rd line, he will surprise.

That is in theory the top 9. The downside is a lot of hope. The upside is that any one and all of these top 9 have 20 goal potential. Dalpe is a stretch, but it is possible. That could amount to amazing depth. Just for fun, if McBain or Pits somehow dropped in 20 goals and all 9 listed above did, it would tie for #2 all time most 20 goal scorers on one team.

There are the wildcards of Tlusty, Boychuk and Bowman also.

Anyway, with Kabs as a slight upgrade on Corvo, especially on the powerplay, and more bodies in front of the net, and LaRose back to his proper spot, and Sutter finding a bit more offense, and guys like McBain, Joslin, Dalpe even Skinner with one more year under their belts (McBain could really surprise offensively)....

We really don't need all of those guys to break out, but we do need at least 2 of them to. If Stewart and Poni hit 20 and Dalpe shows strides and hits 15, as long as LaRose trims that plus minus, and the other upgrades pan out, we could be better than advertised.

Anyway, for those who like us being underrated and surprising teams that take us lightly. This would be a team for that.

Edited by remkin

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