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jeromeo87

2012 Off Season Discussion

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I just don't see JR putting all of his pucks in the free agent basket if he has a chance to make a trade for a top caliber talent using the 1st round pick plus whatever. If there's a chance JR can make a play for a guy like J. Staal, then he'll try to make it happen and then still be able to make a play for a UFA.

I don't have any idea that it would happen, but Staal, Staal, Sutter is pretty darn strong up the middle to build around. JR could move...say...Jussi and Joni to have enough money to make a play for Parise or Suter.

Just fishin' a little.

Super_Dave, I agree with your JR assessment. Believe he has enough assets to trade for Jordan Staal and make some salary cap room to sign him to a new contract at the same time. Then still have financing to execute a big UFA deal (Parise-type or Suter-type).

Up until JR's interview, I was with you up the middle (Staal/Staal/Sutter/Brent) then he put Welch in the mix.

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Teams can trade now but historically they don't because I'd imagine they don't want to steal any thunder from the playoffs.

Thanks. An interesting unwritten rule.

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The Welsh comment reminded me of the pedestal he put Dalpe on last year. I'll admit though, he did have a good 1 NHL game.

Did he show you enough in one game to pencil him into the lineup in the top 9? I'd be hard pressed to do that. Dalpe was supposed to be on the top line, but JR seems to forgotten that he told us that (according to his post season presser).

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I need to use the sarcasm emoticon thingy more.

:facepalm: Those darn smilies :facepalm:

We need one more center for either the 2nd or 3rd line. On the 2nd line, we currently have 3 guys that "can" skate at center ice, but who aren't currently centers. If Sutter move up, that leaves a hole at 3rd line center. Welsh may be that guy, but I don't see how JR can go into a season seeing him play 1 game with that as his plan. Of course, we've seen the Trevor Letowskis come and go too.

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Did he show you enough in one game to pencil him into the lineup in the top 9? I'd be hard pressed to do that. Dalpe was supposed to be on the top line, but JR seems to forgotten that he told us that (according to his post season presser).

I don't think Welsh was a natural center. I believe I've read he learned the position in college.

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“He’s a player that should be able to play in our top nine,” Rutherford said. “He clearly understood the game. He’s a very smart player. The speed of the game was not a problem for him. He’s a real character guy, and he’s in great shape. I’d be surprised if he was not in our top nine next year.”

Welsh is what, 24, so maybe the Dalpe comparison is stretching it a little, but still, it does sound a little familiar. Regardless, with all the 3rd-4th liners signed for next year, somebody's got to go to make room.

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“He’s a player that should be able to play in our top nine,” Rutherford said. “He clearly understood the game. He’s a very smart player. The speed of the game was not a problem for him. He’s a real character guy, and he’s in great shape. I’d be surprised if he was not in our top nine next year.”

Welsh is what, 24, so maybe the Dalpe comparison is stretching it a little, but still, it does sound a little familiar. Regardless, with all the 3rd-4th liners signed for next year, somebody's got to go to make room.

I'll believe the Welsh projection when I see it. But your right if we only make some of the moves mentioned somebody has to go to make room.

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It's going to be interesting to watch Muller make his own impact on our lineup going forward. Looks like he's already done that with respect to he coaching staff.

I was really glad to see he wants a different look on the fourth line, and I would welcome somebody that's got the kahunas to move us from Charmin soft to at least 100 grit sandpaper.

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I was really glad to see he wants a different look on the fourth line, and I would welcome somebody that's got the kahunas to move us from Charmin soft to at least 100 grit sandpaper.

That's a really tough analogy to visualize, dude! :o

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JR must love yanking on the sinker, watching everyone respond to the moving bobber float dip under the waves above.

All this heady talk about J Staal and Parise. With it being time for STHs to reenlist and new ticket sales underway, I have to wonder if maybe JR IS yanking on the bobber a bit. What better way to entice new ticket sales other than by dangling all these heady rumors about signing top players? It surely isn't the performance of the team last year.

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Staal and Parise? OK, that would be a very tough prediction, though what a team we'd have.

But one guy like that? I'll take that bet. This year things will be different. JR is not just selling tickets. I believe!

Now on Welsh I think it is a bit of signing talk. I think he did look good and hopes are high, but JR talked like that not only about Dalpe but Nash too. The one thing I am not falling for is that any of those prospects are the answer.

But at least one move for a top forward, yes, it will happen. :pray:

No, it will.

Edited by remkin

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I think there is generally too much focus on labeling what line a guy is on, and what role he plays for the team.

Why do I say that? I think the strength of the Cup team was the lack of conventional lines. You can argue that we didn't have a classic first line on that team. What we had was closer to a 1.5 line (somewhere between a first and second line) and 2 other 2nd lines, and a 3rd line. In other words, the talent distributed so evenly that it is a nightmare to play against?

How so? Huge disadvantage when you play away games usually. The home team gets the last change. What happened in our case when we were on the road is, it was tough to avoid a mismatch since all of the lines were evenly good. Eventually you have to play your 3rd and 4th line against superior talent. Couple that with the Cane's having 2 solid defensive lines (Brindi and Adams lines) and it is clear that the Cane's can lay out one of those 2 most of the time when you are likely to put out your first line. This is TOUGH to coach against.

How does this translate to now?

Imagine a team with Staal, J. Staal, and Sutter as centers. We would have 2 very solid defensive centers in Jordan and Brandon. However, they are BOTH offensively gifted, they just aren't generally focused on it since they're responsibility was usually playing against the opposing 1st line. (If you doubt their offensive skill, look at the hattie against Philli in the playoffs this year, and think of Sutter's breakaways. Both of these guys can snipe, I take both of them in a breakaway over Eric Staal)

So now you have 2 of them... whichever line doesn't play against the 1st line defensively can feel a lot more free to play offensively. In away games, you don't usually get a choice. In home games, you get to choose. Doesn't ALWAYS have to be the same guy. Both Jordan and Brandon are capable of it, which starts to be a nightmare for an opposing coach.

That's what we want... the opposing coach to start having bad dreams trying to deal with us, our versatility. They love it when we have a conventional team, easy to play against, easy to game plan against.

Then, as far as the Staal playing wing discussion goes, doesn't have to be all the time either. Pop that one in every now and then, at the end of periods (like Pittsburgh does with Malkin/Crosby, like TB does with their dream lines at the end of the periods, Stamkos/St Louis/Vinny)

Coach said he wants to get more defensive. We score enough, need to stop the OTHER guy from scoring. Defensive center #2 is a big part of that. But I just like Jordan and Sutter as those special 2 way players, I don't see a big dropoff in the offense with this move. These guys are special, and I find the prospect very exciting.

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Think JR is really serious this summer. He's gone public so many times that he's going for a top tier player. IMO I'm not even sure Jordan Staal is the top tier caliber JR was referring. Jordan's just a great possibility that could be ours for the right TRADE offer. So this could mean two forwards at least.

That still leaves FA for that young top tier talent, ie: Parise or Nash-type. Still think JR would also like to trade or use FA to get that skilled 3rd or 4th line rugged forward.

But who is leaving? With 2 or 3 new forwards plus Welch, there has to be roster movement. Right?

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Okay, for the sake of discussion, I'll concede the fact that JR's rhetoric could have changed due to the possibility J. Staal might be available. I can see how that makes sense to people, given his recent comments, whether I'm skeptical of it (actually happening) or not. At least this year.

Seems to me trading for Staal puts Shero in the driver's seat, if he trades with the Canes. So what do we have that they really need? And what might Pittsburgh have to dump in the way of salary to bring somebody back, given the reason this whole thing came up are salary concerns with paying Crosby, Malkin and Staal?

I know they don't need a puck mover, so I would assume they might consider looking at a defensive d-man. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't JR put in Gleason's contract he wouldn't be traded prior to his NTC kicking in? The only other thing we could offer would be negotiating rights with Allen, or maybe Harrison? I highly doubt we would consider Faulk.

Sutter straight up to replace Jordan? Skinner? I highly doubt that happens. Ruutu or Jokinen makes more sense to me, cause I've heard Shero say they needed secondary scoring in the top-6. Anybody know if Ruutu has the same clause in his new contract that Gleason does?

So to me, that likely means something around Jokinen or Ruutu, and our 2012 first to even get in the ballpark. And it wouldn't suprise me to see Shero ask for another roster player, or a decent prospect, or a conditional second or something.

And I wonder if JR would do anything without an extension for Staal in place.

Your thoughts?

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You raise some interesting questions coastal. For the sake of discussion I agree with you about Sutter, Skinner, for J Staal. That won't happen IMO.

I do think we will take J. Staal (I'm still not convinced he is available) without an extention. his price goes up with an extension and I think we are probable confient we can negotiate an extension during the season.

The best deal for us would be an even swap of Joni for Jordan because of the money and our apparent desire to add Sangs or Ryan Murphy to our blue line mix. But although the Pens need D-help I don't think Joni is what they are looking for.

I don't think we will trade Ruu even if he doesn't have a deal like Gleason. We gave him a NTC and I think you have to honor it.

I could see the Pens wanting Jokinen or Harrison with our first round #8 pick. Thats a high price but I can see them asking. Joslin or LaRose could also be in the mix but not with a first round pick. I could see a Jokinen, Joslin, later round pick type of deal.

The truth is I don't know what we have the Pens will want.

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You both bring up interesting ideas, assuming J. Staal is/will be available this year and probably for sure next summer as a UFA.

Although IMO you may be offering to much for Jordan, since he said he wants to play for Carolina via trade or UFA. I'm assuming with this statement he will be hard to trade anywhere but here. Therefore, we may be able to get him for 2 or 3 roster players, Jussi, Chad, & a D-man. As for Ruutu, I don't believe JR will want to move our 3rd or 4th forward.

I think JR will try to do an extension if he gets J. Staal this summer, just given his propensity to avoid in-season negotiations.

Don't know if any gritty 3rd/4th line forwards are FA's this summer. So, JR may have to trade for somebody if he can find the right person (non-goon)...maybe Stewart and a prospect or whatever it takes to make it salary cap neutral.

That still leaves financial hope for a top tier scorer...a la Parise, Nash, etc....and maybe even a d-man like Suter or Carle.

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IMO I think you're WAYYY over valuing Jordan Staal. Yes, he is a big name and yes he will yield a big return in a trade, HOWEVER you must consider the fact you're only getting him for one year guaranteed. Add to that the Pens are in cap trouble, so the return he'll get cannot fill the relief they just gained in their cap (That would make the entire deal pointless).

Also consider the Pens past few seasons. The highest they've drafted since they drafted Staal 2nd overall in '06 is 20th overall. An 8th overall pick isn't as low in value as you are giving it. Also consider who is still available in the draft at that position. If the Pens play the waiting game, they can pull the trigger on a deal right there, or at least try to, if it's someone they want.

The Pens may not move Staal as soon as the rumors may suggest, but I believe they are moving him before they lose him for nothing. Not only will Staal want a raise in pay, but he wants ice time. Of course they will resign Crosby, and they have Malkin under contract. So Staal will be reduced to the third line for a while. I believe Staal doesnt want to stay in Pittsburgh, and it makes sense. Especially since he announced he'd like to play for Carolina. With all the rumors circling, and your intention was to stay with the Pens, I don't think he'd be talking about teams he wants to play for.

I'm mostly rambling here about things that make it seem more than just hopeful thinking. And don't insinuate we are falling for some sort of trick JR may be pulling on us. JR has publicly stated he's after top line talent, via FA or trade. So JR will go after the top line talent via FA or trade. Does that mean we're getting Parise, Suter, or Staal? No. But after the past season, and with nothing else Hurricanes to discuss, how does it not make sense to you that we're excited about all these rumors and talks. Just because we're stating reasons why a deal can be made doesn't mean we expect it to be done, it means we're trying to reason out how it can be done. Sorry, I took a little offense in the pessimistic comment.

Also, while I'm typing this post, I'd like to point out that the FA doesn't seem very deep this year. Besides Parise, there aren't many players that meet JRs expectations (prime age, established top talent). So I feel like if Parise doesn't pan out, then the trade route is more likely.

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I don't see us signing Parise and getting a guy like Staal unless we move Ruutu or Jokinen. We have a better chance at signing Suter/Carle and trading for a winger. Just seems to be a lot more noise about Parie then Suter or Carle.

It's hard for to say we would ever go after Marleau, Nash, or Iginla though. Iggy is too old, Marleau is the cheapest but can fade in playoffs, and Nash would be the most expensive but biggest return in value.

I still think a boychuk, sang/Samson, and conditional 2014 1st rounder if we sign him.

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I don't see us signing Parise and getting a guy like Staal unless we move Ruutu or Jokinen. We have a better chance at signing Suter/Carle and trading for a winger. Just seems to be a lot more noise about Parie then Suter or Carle.

It's hard for to say we would ever go after Marleau, Nash, or Iginla though. Iggy is too old, Marleau is the cheapest but can fade in playoffs, and Nash would be the most expensive but biggest return in value.

I still think a boychuk, sang/Samson, and conditional 2014 1st rounder if we sign him.

Whether we get 2 or 3 forwards thru trade or UFA plus JR adding Welch to the mix, the math indicates the Canes will have to move several forwards from the season-end roster. Can't see JR moving Staal, Skinner, or Ruutu and probably not Tlusty or Sutter. Any other forwards could be available to trade or move to AHL (or KHL, I guess). I'm not saying a trade would be forward for forward, just saying there's not enough roster room for everybody, Of course there is already the same issue on defense if you add Murphy, Dumo, and Sangunetti to the current stable of blueliners, let alone adding a UFA Suter to the mix.

IMO trade(s) would help the most with roster spots and salary cap. But I guess players can be traded for draft picks if need be.

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We have to net one more top forward. I doubt we trade any of Staal, Skinner, Ruutu, Jussi or Tlusty (or Sutter). We need to add one to that.

In theory we could trade a guy like Jokinen in say a J Staal trade, and then pick up a winger, but I wonder what Jussi's value is after not putting up many goals last year. Plus JR's track record at replacing people ain't so hot. Plus Jussi and Ruutu both took the home town deal.

Anything's possible, but I don't see moving those guys.

On the #8 pick....for ONE year of Staal is a hugely bad deal for us. For multiple years of Staal, good deal, might even have to buff it a little from our side, but not Ruutu or Jussi. As much as I groan that we aren't picking higher, the #8 pick should net a very very good player, and hopefully the only way we ever pick this high again for a while is if we get someone else's pick. I think JR will be very very hesitant to trade that pick.

Edited by remkin

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