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jeromeo87

2012 Off Season Discussion

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Couple of things...

Yes, the Pitkanen/McBain pairing was just ugly.. always was, but.... so was the Spacek/McBain pairing. I really don't understand how anyone can say Spacek and McBain paired together was pretty good. Just..no.

No, I said no such thing. I said the results (for McBain) were better when Muller and his staff placed McBain with Spacek, and away from Pitkanen. McBain was -14 when paired with Pitkanen, and +11 paired with Spacek.

And here's an article that goes even further in proving it:

What Role Does McBain Play Next Year

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No, I said no such thing. I said the results (for McBain) were better when Muller and his staff placed McBain with Spacek, and away from Pitkanen. McBain was -14 when paired with Pitkanen, and +11 paired with Spacek.

And here's an article that goes even further in proving it:

What Role Does McBain Play Next Year

Eh, I'm not denying the McBain/Spacek pairing was better than McBain/Pitkanen. M/S was in fact better than M/P, but still.. both were pretty sucky. As for the numbers, I think the whole team had better numbers when Muller took over, so..

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Eh, I'm not denying the McBain/Spacek pairing was better than McBain/Pitkanen. M/S was in fact better than M/P, but still.. both were pretty sucky. As for the numbers, I think the whole team had better numbers when Muller took over, so..

So, you are saying that since the whole team was better under Muller then by default McBain was better, regardless of who he was playing with. :lol:

The numbers prove otherwise.

McBain was +11 with Spacek, and Spacek was +4 with McBain. I'm not saying they were the best third pairing in the league, but they were far from "sucky", whatever that means. As a matter of fact, together they accounted for 20 points, including 2 game winners.

Edited by coastal_caniac

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Maybe JR should sign Semin so the Canes don't get beat by him. We all know how he has Ward's number.

EDIT: Got to thinking about defensemen and Sheldon Souray came to mind. He put up fairly decent numbers on a Muller run PP in Montreal. Could be a backup option if others sign elsewhere.

Edited by jfive

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Couple of things...

Yes, the Pitkanen/McBain pairing was just ugly.. always was, but.... so was the Spacek/McBain pairing. I really don't understand how anyone can say Spacek and McBain paired together was pretty good. Just..no.

I honestly would not be surprised to see us taking Paul Martin in a trade with J.Staal. My prediction is Pitkanen is moved for a package involving a player like Matt Greene. That player will then be moved in a package for J.Staal&Martin.

Thought I heard or read that one of the Pens objectives was to move Martin & his salary, so they could have a chance to sign Staal.

Maybe JR should sign Semin so the Canes don't get beat by him. We all know how he has Ward's number.

Good point. Another plus for Semin.

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So, you are saying that since the whole team was better under Muller then by default McBain was better, regardless of who he was playing with. :lol:

The numbers prove otherwise.

McBain was +11 with Spacek, and Spacek was +4 with McBain. I'm not saying they were the best third pairing in the league, but they were far from "sucky", whatever that means. As a matter of fact, together they accounted for 20 points, including 2 game winners.

I'm actually not sure what's so funny about that... :screwy: The WHOLE team did start playing better under Muller.. "Whole team" does include McBain.. I mean.. Staal started playing better, regardless who he was with, so.. Maybe we're just not connecting on something..

Oh and from dicitionary.com - Sucky: (origin= suck + y) - poor; undesirable. - Sentence use: The pairing of McBain and Spacek was sucky. (ok, the sentence is from me)

You can't pair two offensive-minded dmen together. Yeah, they will score goals; yeah, they will put up points - but they will make your goalie work a lot harder than he should. And that's what happened.

Edited by jeromeo87

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Good point. Another plus for Semin.

Only problems with Semin are that he disappears at points, and it's being reported he wants term over dollars with his next contract. A town like Raleigh where there isn't a constant media presence/pressure and the fans don't bother the players could help him. BUT there's still the whole disappearing act and not looking interested at times. There's no denying his skill though, definitely one of the top 5 snipers when he's on his game. That wrister is a freakin laser in disguise.

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Thought I heard or read that one of the Pens objectives was to move Martin & his salary, so they could have a chance to sign Staal.

Yeah, I heard that too; however (for whatever reason), a lot of Pens people are saying if someone wants J.Staal they are going to have to take Martin.

I think the point with the Pens is they need a top 6 winger and defensive dman. Putting a lot of money in J.Staal doesn't fill those needs.

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MEMORANDUM

TO: JR

FROM: PITTSBURGH FANS & PITTSBURGH MEDIA OUTLETS

RE: Jordan Staal

Be prepared to be hosed in any acquisition of Jordan Staal through trade. Also, be prepared to be happy to be hosed, once you are hosed. That is all.

Good thing this memorandum isn't from Ray Shero ;)

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I found this article on the whole rumor of Jordan to Carolina. Maybe this will shed some light on the whole thing so everyone knows in better detail how the talk came about.

– Pens GM Ray Shero conducts a lengthy interview with the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, saying he “might run into problems” trying to keep all three of his gifted centers: Sidney Crosby, Evgeni Malkin and Staal.

Malkin is on the books until 2014, Crosby and Staal 2013. But of the three, Crosby and Malkin have no-movement clauses. Staal doesn’t.

– Following up on comments from CBC’s Glenn Healy (“[staal] is not going to ask to be traded, but the hockey world knows something has got to happen,”) the Edmonton Journal floats the idea of the Oilers trading the first overall pick at the 2012 Draft for Staal.

– TSN’s Bob McKenzie then picks up on the trade banter:

“There’s a lot of Jordan Staal talk, where his long-term home is (PIT or elsewhere?). Being a year from UFA means he’s driving the bus.

“PIT can’t get full market value in trade for J Staal if he’s one and done in the new locale. So Staal ultimately ends up wherever he wants.

“I wouldn’t be surprised if all three Staal brothers eventually want to play on same team. Eric, BTW, has four more years on his CAR deal.

“Which is to suggest Eric not going anywhere. Just a guess, but if Jordan isn’t a Penguin—not suggesting he’s not—a Cane seems logical.

“Bottom line is in 1 yr, it’s entirely his call. That power/influence dramatically impacts potential move this summer.”

– Mark Madden of Penguins Radio (WXDX 105.9 Pittsburgh) reports on the ‘Canes angle: “Staal has apparently said that if Pens trade him, he’d prefer to go to Carolina to play with brother Eric.”

– Chip Alexander of the Raleigh News and Observer continues this narrative. “Canes would (will?) be very interested,” Alexander tweets. “I would not be stunned if Jordan Staal becomes a Hurricane.”

– Then, in a piece claiming Carolina GM Jim Rutherford’s been greenlit by owner Peter Karmanos to acquire “a top-line player,” The News and Observer’s Luke DeCock says Staal is a legit free agent target.

Personally, I think Jordan/his agent keeping quiet about all this so far also says something, but that's most likely wishful thinking. I just feel of the elite forwards we can acquire in any way, Staal would transition to Carolina easily. And looking through articles today, I saw really laughable 'articles' (more like sports blogs) that seemed to believe Jordan Staal (packaged with Martin) is worth 8th Overall Pick, conditional 2013 1st round pick, and either Skinner, Sutter, Faulk.

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I'm actually not sure what's so funny about that... :screwy: The WHOLE team did start playing better under Muller.. "Whole team" does include McBain.. I mean.. Staal started playing better, regardless who he was with, so.. Maybe we're just not connecting on something..

Oh and from dicitionary.com - Sucky: (origin= suck + y) - poor; undesirable. - Sentence use: The pairing of McBain and Spacek was sucky. (ok, the sentence is from me)

You can't pair two offensive-minded dmen together. Yeah, they will score goals; yeah, they will put up points - but they will make your goalie work a lot harder than he should. And that's what happened.

1. First you agree that McBain/Pitkanen were a bad pairing. Then you make a statement that basically accused me of suggesting McBain\Spacek were a great pairing. All without anything to back it up.

2. I showed you the actual numbers, and based upon those stats, McBain improved considerably when moved away from a guy with similar tendencies (Pitkanen) and was paired with Spacek. Together, both were plus players, put up 20 points, and scored 2 game-winning goals. Were they the best third-pairing in the league, absolutely not, but they were certainly not dictionary.com sucky either, based on the numbers (which aren't in the dictionary).

3. Then you go on to say the only reason McBain's numbers improved after being paired with Spacek was because Muller made the whole team better, using Staal as an example.

4. Then you do a complete 360 and finish your argument by saying you can't pair two offensive-minded defenseman together or you will make your goalie work harder and that's what happened.

No, we aren't connecting....

If pairing one offensive-minded dmen with another is a bad idea, then by default, pairing that same dman with someone more defensively responsible should be a good idea. That's what happened, and McBain's play improved, and the numbers prove it.

Edited by coastal_caniac

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Man. I don't want to even start thinking of J. Staal in a Canes sweater, since I don't want to get my hopes up. But that would give us so much depth down center. You could throw in any group of semi-talented wings on those 3 lines and we'd still be a lock for the playoffs. Not worth losing Sutter over though.

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1. First you agree that McBain/Pitkanen were a bad pairing. Then you make a statement that basically accused me of suggesting McBain\Spacek were a great pairing. All without anything to back it up.

2. I showed you the actual numbers, and based upon those stats, McBain improved considerably when moved away from a guy with similar tendencies (Pitkanen) and was paired with Spacek. Together, both were plus players, put up 20 points, and scored 2 game-winning goals. Were they the best third-pairing in the league, absolutely not, but they were certainly not dictionary.com sucky either, based on the numbers (which aren't in the dictionary).

3. Then you go on to say the only reason McBain's numbers improved after being paired with Spacek was because Muller made the whole team better, using Staal as an example.

4. Then you do a complete 360 and finish your argument by saying you can't pair two offensive-minded defenseman together or you will make your goalie work harder and that's what happened.

No, we aren't connecting....

Guy, this isn't too hard - M/P sucked. M/S sucked a little less, still sucked. Both pairings are of two offensive minded dmen. I believe pairing players like Pitkanen and McBain with a more defensive minded dman is the better way to go.

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Guy, this isn't too hard - M/P sucked. M/S sucked a little less, still sucked. Both pairings are of two offensive minded dmen. I believe pairing players like Pitkanen and McBain with a more defensive minded dman is the better way to go.

Dude, Spacek was at the end of his career, age wise. Plus, he was on the third pairing, which normally isn't expected to provide offense. His job wasn't to be a puck mover. Why you can't just accept the fact that the numbers show McBain improved when taken away from what we both agree IS an offensive d-man is just, well, beyond me.

I'm done.

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McBain was -14 when paired with Pitkanen, and +11 paired with Spacek.

I think the debate ended right there how this went on for another page is beyond me.

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Dude, Spacek was at the end of his career, age wise. Plus, he was on the third pairing, which normally isn't expected to provide offense. His job wasn't to be a puck mover. Why you can't just accept the fact that the numbers show McBain improved when taken away from what we both agree IS an offensive d-man is just, well, beyond me.

I'm done.

Haha, guy - I AM ACCPETING THAT. I'm just not a black and white guy. Yeah, McBain was taken away from an almost pure offensive dman in Pitkanen. When moved away, McBain's numbers improved. BESIDES ALL OF THAT - the pairing of McBain and Spacek still struggled. They were, by far, our worst pairing. Yeah, they were the third pairing, but shouldn't we improve the weak parts of our team? That's all I'm saying.

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Yeah, I heard that too; however (for whatever reason), a lot of Pens people are saying if someone wants J.Staal they are going to have to take Martin.

I think the point with the Pens is they need a top 6 winger and defensive dman. Putting a lot of money in J.Staal doesn't fill those needs.

I'd like to see Dave Lewis work with Martin. As a player, he could be a good addition, especially if that's what it would take to get Jordan. It's Martin's salary that's the problem. Wonder if there's a legal way for the Pens to absorb 30 or 40% of his salary? ...maybe for a 2nd or 3rd round 2013 pick or something like that.

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Only problems with Semin are that he disappears at points, and it's being reported he wants term over dollars with his next contract. A town like Raleigh where there isn't a constant media presence/pressure and the fans don't bother the players could help him. BUT there's still the whole disappearing act and not looking interested at times. There's no denying his skill though, definitely one of the top 5 snipers when he's on his game. That wrister is a freakin laser in disguise.

There are definitely more Semin minuses than pluses. Do you think Muller and Brindy could work on him? He's got oustanding skills when he wants to bring it. In this year's playoffs, he was a presence every game ... maybe wanted to entice future bidders! Also, doesn't JR after hesitancy about Russian players?

Parise would be my 1st choice but I'm gun-shy of Semin and his inconsistent play as a 2nd choice. Maybe a trade for Bobby Ryan or Corry Perry would be a better bet.

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There are definitely more Semin minuses than pluses. Do you think Muller and Brindy could work on him? He's got oustanding skills when he wants to bring it. In this year's playoffs, he was a presence every game ... maybe wanted to entice future bidders! Also, doesn't JR after hesitancy about Russian players?

Parise would be my 1st choice but I'm gun-shy of Semin and his inconsistent play as a 2nd choice. Maybe a trade for Bobby Ryan or Corry Perry would be a better bet.

Corey Perry isn't going anywhere and I'd be surprised if Bobby Ryan was on the market.

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The whole J. Staal talk is wishful thinking for us since we have no dog in the playoff fight right now. It might happen, but it's fun to think about. It definitely solves a problem this team has in missing a 2nd line center. The interesting thing is looking at some of the Pens forums and seeing what they think is fair return. I've seen as much as Sutter, Faulk, and the 8th pick. I'm sure that Shero would do that, but I'd have my pitchfork and torch out headed to JR's office. I can see the 8th pick plus a good prospect, but JR can always wait a year and get him for free (well, he would have to pay him) as an UFA.

I've also seen the talk of throwing Martin in on the deal. That makes the return less if we are going to do them the favor and take that salary back too (3 more years at $5M).

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Corey Perry isn't going anywhere and I'd be surprised if Bobby Ryan was on the market.

It's called "California Dreamin'"! I was just recalling the Trade Deadline rumors of Feb and their GM saying he wouldn't consider any draft choices for them.

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here is what they would see us with next year (according to what our needs are and what is available):

http://www.capgeek.c...ter.php?id=3045

Interesting...

That line up looks pretty darned good to me. I know there are Wings fans out there on these boards that know Hudler better than me, but he has put up over 50 points twice.

The key piece of course is J.Staal on the second line.

While a lot of attention would go to those two new guys, what is really impressive is that third line. Every player on that line is a potential 20 goal scorer. What amazing scoring depth we'd have.

The only thing I wonder is the way Tlusty finished was way more that third line.

Oh and they have us bringing up Murphy and slipped Hal Gil in there.

I like that team. SOLD.

Note: must be a Pittsburgh fan that left that comment. McBain and the #8 pick isn't enough for J Staal with one year on his contract? What are they smoking up there?

Edited by remkin

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