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jeromeo87

2012 Off Season Discussion

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I don't know if it's been mentioned in awhile, but I just saw that Weber is due to be an RFA this summer (unless I'm mistaken). If that's the case, we'd either have to trade for his rights or compensate the Preds with the obligatory draft picks, etc.

With that in mind, I think I'd be leaning more toward Parise. We've been looking for Staal's winger for years and he would qualify. Then, if we feel the need to upgrade the defense, maybe that's something we look into doing via trade.

I would hesitate to move someone like Pitkanen though. People can be concerned about his defensive acumen, bad penalties, etc., but it would almost make any move we make a lateral one. We might improve defensively, but we'd be giving up a substantial offensive component. I would much rather give up McBain plus picks/prospects (could possibly throw in a depth forward).

I may be missing something, but we are all talking about Parise and SUTER, not Weber.

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I don't know if it's been mentioned in awhile, but I just saw that Weber is due to be an RFA this summer (unless I'm mistaken). If that's the case, we'd either have to trade for his rights or compensate the Preds with the obligatory draft picks, etc.

I can't imagine that a $7.5 million (+) D-man who scores an average of 50 pts., and who will also cost us two first, a second and a third rounder, would ever be high on JR's to-do list.

I may be missing something, but we are all talking about Parise and SUTER, not Weber.

I think "SUTER" is as much a pipe dream as any other UFA D-man. His stats are nearly identical to Weber's, so he'll probably will go for close to his salary. And even if it's "only" in the $5.5-$6.0/year range, I think that JR would be a lot better off investing that kind of money in a decent upgrade for Staal's line.

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All this talk reminds me of something I heard on XM yesterday morning.

The hosts were chuckling over a bunch of sports talk radio banter by fan call-ins on Thursday. Apparently the hot topic was why and how Toronto will just pick up Eric Staal.

Pipe Dream indeed.

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I may be missing something, but we are all talking about Parise and SUTER, not Weber.

Nope, you're not missing anything. Switched things up in my mind somehow. Not entirely sure how that happened.

Nevertheless, I just get the feeling Suter will hang around in Nashville.

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Toronto fans are delusional at any moment they think someone else's team is just dropping their star for them. They also seem to believe every player in the world wants to play for them. Habs fans believe the same when most players get there and want out from the media.

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Toronto fans are delusional at any moment they think someone else's team is just dropping their star for them. They also seem to believe every player in the world wants to play for them.

Throw in that they also expect a hometown discount and it reminds me of some fans I know too. :popcorn:

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You know, on the one hand it is painfully early to be considering this, but on the other hand as the losses pile up, you have to.

I know that historically teams have had to dwell in the cellar for several years to get back to being a true contender, but I don't think we would have to. By popping down there a couple of times we have picked up Staal, Skinner, and by trade Ruutu. By picking some nice second rounders we have Faulk, Dalpe, and McBain. Add Jussi, Joni, and Ward, and then mid first rounders of Sutter and even maybe Boychuk, add in a pretty high pick in Murphy last year, and there really is a basis for the idea that just ONE drop way down that could yield an elite talent would do the job for years to come.

A few key mid level moves to add some key pieces and one elite, ready to contribute forward and assuming Staal (and now Ward) return to form and we'd have 4 All star level guys:

Staal, Ward, Skinner, and top pick. To go with some guys with All Star potential:

McBain, Faulk, Murphy, Jussi

And some solid pieces:

Ruutu, Gleason, Sutter.

Sprinkle in a Dalpe or Boychuk suprising and a couple of key midlevel moves by JR and this team could be back fast.

And with realignment, we are going to NEED more talent, so this might be the best thing at this point.

Hey, I still want a turnaround, but it's getting pretty unlikely.

It would be great to bring back Corvo. He's a UFA this year, puck moving defender with a bomber shot from the blue line! Just what we need!

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It would be great to bring back Corvo. He's a UFA this year, puck moving defender with a bomber shot from the blue line! Just what we need!

If we're going to add on the blue line, it will need to be a more defensive-minded guy. Corvo doesn't fit that description in my eyes.

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Don't look now but Juri Tlusty is likely going to hit 20 goals, and that with the second best plus/minus on the team.

Just need one more top 6 forward.

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Don't look now but Juri Tlusty is likely going to hit 20 goals, and that with the second best plus/minus on the team.

Just need one more top 6 forward.

Thanks for the post. I have started to really watch him in game situations....... Kirk was the best thing to happen to him,giving him the on ice time to develop into a real player.

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It would be great to bring back Corvo. He's a UFA this year, puck moving defender with a bomber shot from the blue line! Just what we need!

Please say it isn't so.....Dear JR, please....JUST SAY NO!!

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Kurt Dusterberg over atHurricanesBeat.com has some interesting insight into what he thinks the Canes need this off season.

For starters, they need two more forwards who are proven scorers.

Dusterberg also points out even under the new improved play under Muller we wouldn't have made the play-offs if he had been there all season.

The issue here has never been coaching. Paul Maurice is widely regarded as an excellent coach. Kirk Muller seems to have all the tools to be one too, perhaps right away. Both men coaxed what they could out of this roster, and neither had the team on a playoff pace. They didn’t have the players.

Interesting stuff...give it a read if you have time.

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It is an interesting read. Paul Maurice had his share of coaching issues but in the end, did Kirk Muller have any more success than him? The style of game changed to a more exciting brand of hockey but the results were similar. You can only squeeze so much talent from what you have to work with. Sometimes a team can over achieve but for how long can they keep it up? This team has had periods of over achievement but could never sustain any success.

With some upgraded talent thats been hand picked for Muller's style of play, this team easily could be in the mix next season. Look how close they almost came with an inferior roster.

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Sometimes there is a huge difference between "look how well we did with what we had" and actually doing well.

This is a league where over half the teams make the playoffs every year, and at least 4/5 of the teams are always in the hunt for the number 8 slot.

Sure just slipping into the 8 slot can lead to a "just get in and anything can happen" situation, but by far most marginal teams, especially those that rode their goalie like a pony at the fair, are quickly out. (I know we somewhat broke the mold a few years ago, but that is not a good plan).

We have gotten into a pattern of not replenishing our talent (pretty much every year since the cup), then struggling, then making a late season dash that just serves to fall short of the last playoff spot, but also push our draft pick down to a tricky spot mid round.

I'm sure my mentioning that losing a few games at the end here is best annoys a lot of people. But I am so so so tired of these late season heroics that take us out of our nearly ONLY way to pick up elite talent: drafting high. Yes, Skinner was a steal at #7, but that was a mega strong draft class, and Skinner was NOT available at #10, which is where we'll be if we keep winning meaningless games.

But enough about that. The point is this. The only acceptable thing now is for JR/PK to go out and find one or two legitimate scoring forwards. The idea is not to sneak in at #8 with an overperforming AHL team, no home ice and hope we can beat the legitimate contenders on their ice 4 times with a worn out goalie. The idea is to put a solid product on the ice and go for home ice in the playoffs and try to go deep in the playoffs, with a legitimate cup shot.

That takes talent.

Does anyone really think this team is build as is to do that with no major addition at all?

Staal, Stillmann, Whitney, Cole, J. Williams, Brind'Amour (still on his game), Cullen, Weight, Recci. That's no fluke. That's what it takes.

If we could have added Nail or Grigorenko or an elite level draft pick, then picked up one top winger, I think we'd be very close to that in two years, and at least playoff bound next year. Instead we got to get that winning feeling in a meaningless year and if it continues we'll pick mid round. Now a nice little losing streak at the end could bump us as high as #4, so I can hope.

Anyway, if JR stands pat with this team, and does not pick up a solid top line winger...I have some seats for sale.

But let me end more upbeat. I think this time is different. I think for the first time in recent memory JR and PK see the need and will actually do something. They will not get suckered in by yet another late season run to nowhere. This is the year they make a splash and turn this team's destiny. Maybe we lose a few and pick in the top 5. But we DO get that winger this time. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Or I'm selling my seats...no I sticking to it.

Edited by remkin

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Sorry, but I've never liked that dude's articles. Mo had way more problems than just not enough talent to work with. That should be apparent to anyone who has followed this team since 1997 and his two stints as head coach. I quit reading after he said that.

On the whole "fail" idea...it's over-rated and reak with holes. Go ask Tampa Bay, the Isles, Oilers, Jets, etc. how picking in the top-3 for years in a row improved their team and play. Enough about that. It's interesting to discuss, but more often than not, one guy coming out of the draft isn't going to make the difference. Besides, who the heck wants to go through years of that anyway?

Personally, I put this season squarely in the lap of the owner and GM, the lone bright spot being we finally got rid of Maurice, albeit a little to late.

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And speaking of our current draft status, anything more than a top-4 pick will in all likelehood be a defenseman who will be the BPA. We don't need another defensive prospect.

So, in the first round, with it looking more and more like we will pick 6-10, what do you?

We need upgraded talent now, right?

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And speaking of our current draft status, anything more than a top-4 pick will in all likelehood be a defenseman who will be the BPA. We don't need another defensive prospect.

So, in the first round, with it looking more and more like we will pick 6-10, what do you?

We need upgraded talent now, right?

I agree with this. We have been stocking up on draft choices for a few years now. We also have Skinner and Faulk already on the team and a case can be made for Bowman. You can build a team on draft choices but that takes a long time. Edmonton comes to mind. I'm not against keeping the cupboard full but I would rather go find some veteran help now to go with our young talent already in Raleigh.. Time to use the prospects and draft picks to get the pieces we are missing.

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Or roster players even.

All in all, I agree with Rem, there's too much momentum that's built up with the hiring of Muller, a new style of play and attitude, more stable ownership, ticket sales (the fans are still there), etc., that leads me to believe it will be different going forward with respect to signing some legit talent.

There's lots of ways to get that talent, I just hope we don't wait for leftover boiled taters when the steak and mac and cheese was sitting right there.

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Well the high draft thing worked for Pittsburgh and Chicago.

Pull up the top 2 picks for the last 10 years and check out the names.

The jury is still out on Edmonton. Their guys are still pretty dang young.

But we have a different opportunity. Drop a few games in a meaningless season and get a top talent or win a few meaningless games and get less of a player. But we can drop down grab one elite guy, make a trade or sign a free agent, and turn it around immediately. We don't need 5 more guys.

It's funny because when I post about signing a top free agent, someone always comes on and points to some team that struck out with big name free agents, when I suggest that getting a top talent (like Staal and Skinner) with a top pick is a way to get better, others disagree.

Last time I pointed out about signing FA's people pointed to NYR and Philly as examples of why not to do that. Well they both have over 100 points with some serious FA's on board.

Teams that loaded up on top picks? Pittsburgh and Chicago. Both will end up with over 100 points both have cups with their picks.

Guys like Staal, Crosby, Malkin, etc. are available 90% of the time ONLY as draft picks. Then, when the occasional Nash type guy becomes available they want premium money and a big market. Just about the only way we get an elite player is drafting them.

People say that 06 was a fluke. Well maybe it was, but not for the reasons people like to quote, "Carolina figured out the rules first". It was a fluke because JR's method of finding misfit toys actually came together. BUT we don't get that cup with out a #2 overall pick: Eric Staal. Well if we are going to put out a line up on par with the 06 line up we need at LEAST one more top skilled forward, if not two.

At the end of the day I don't care how we get him. Just get him.

Edited by remkin

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And then there are perennial winners that build through smart drafting and player development, like Detroit. Go down their roster and see how many of their "stars" were 3rd and lower round draft choices. They aren't stocked with top draft choices, yet it seems like they are able to ice a competitive team, year after year.

It doesn't matter how you get the talent, but you do have to get it. The Canes have been out of the playoff mix long enough that we are looking more like bottom dwellers. Fans are going to eventually start looking for other ways to spend their money. There are some really nice pieces like Staal, Ward, Skinner, Faulk, etc. for a team to build around. The time to strike is now, not drafting another piece that may or may not turn out to be a contributing player in a couple of years. If the chips fall that the Canes get the high draft choice, then great, if not, then JR needs to find that piece (or pieces) somewhere.

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Detroit defies gravity. Are there any other examples of drafting late and constantly building winners in hockey? The question is how do WE do it? Drafting late is like playing with one hand behind your back. If you are good enough, maybe you can do it, but almost no one else is good enough, and their's not much evidence we are.

I think for mortal teams it takes a combination of high draft picks (most of the stud teams have them), a couple of key free agent pick ups and a few key trades.

Just don't see JR picking up a Zetterberg in the 7th round being a plan that has worked so far.

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Remkin, if you can't see the difference in being so bad for so many years you continually have the top 1 or 2 picks and our situation I just don't know what to say.

Pittsburgh got Crosby and Malkin, yes. They also almost left town. I'll repeat that. Yes Pittsburgh almost left town. Chicago is another uber market that could afford to have 3/4 of their arena empty for 5 or 6 years.

Then there's Edmonton, who is apparently so mismanaged they can't win despite themselves. Three top-3 picks and they can't even field a defense. They are probably still years away, and that's after getting another of your "elite" picks this year.

Then you casually brush aside the Isles, Tampa Bay, and the Thrashers\Jets. More teams who have had their chance at your elite draft pick but are no closer to anything than the bottom of the conference.

And take this year. You would rather suck as bad as Columbus, Montreal, Edmonton, Minnesota just for a chance at one guy? There is a price to pay, and getting these elite talents you mention is not as casual as losing or dropping a few games. It's losing A LOT of games.

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We really haven't done that bad with our draft picks. Staal, Skinner, Sutter. We also have Faulk (a steal), Bowman and acquiring Tlusty. and there is Murphy waiting in the wings.

I wouldn't pass up a top 5 draft pick if it fell to us but I think it is now time to take those picks and the prospects in Charlotte and turn them into roster players. We are not going to get that top 3 winger, top 6 center and addtional D man for next season through the draft. It is going to be through free agency or trades.

We are 3 years into the rebuild now (ok maybe 21/2) and I just think it is time to go shopping and swapping.

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I woke up mad this morning.

Guys, I don't know what the answer is. Fail for draft or FA. All I know is that PK and JR better do something. I don't know why, but I woke up in a foul mood over this team. It just hit me how bad they've really been since the Cup. Yeah, there was '09 (with the disaster in the conference finals), and then the "almost there" years. But really, this just stinks.

Then I turn on the radio and Chuck Kaiton says this morning that "this is unacceptable". Yeah, I got madder.

Sorry for your pain Islanders, Oilers, Blue Jackets, etc. We don't want to be you. We'd rather be in the mix every year. Unfortunately, we basically are you with all the trappings of the "almosts, maybe next year" garbage. As an old Cubs fan, I've had enough of that crxp.

I dunno. I have full season tickets next year. It's gotta be better, otherwise, I'm going to take up movie watching or something else.

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Since 2002:

2002: Cam Ward, 1st round, 25th overall

2003: Eric Staal, 1st round, 2nd overall

2004: Andrew Ladd, 1st round, 4th overall (now Ruutu, 1st round, 9th overall)

2005: Jack Johnson, 1st round, 3rd overall (now Gleason, 1st round, 23rd overall)

2006: Jamie McBain, 2nd round, 63rd overall

2007: Brandon Sutter, 1st round, 11th overall

2007: Drayson Bowman, 3rd round, 73rd overall

2008: Zach Boychuk, 1st round, 14th overall

2008: Zac Dalpe, 2nd round, 45th overall

2009: Phillipe Paradis, 1st, 27th overall (now Tlusty, 1st round, 13th overall)

2009: Brian Dumoulin, 2nd round, 51st overall

2010: Jeff Skinner, 1st round, 7th overall

2010: Justin Faulk, 2nd round, 37th overall

2011: Ryan Murphy, 1st round, 12th overall

2011: Victor Rask, 2nd round, 42nd overall

3 "elite picks" (Ward, Staal, Skinner), 2 really high round picks (Ruutu, Gleason), 4 mid-1st rounders (Sutter, Boychuk, Tlusty, Murphy), 2 second round steals (Faulk, McBain), and 2 very promising up-and-coming 2nd rounders (Dumoulin, Rask).

That's almost half of our current roster (bolded names) obtained through the draft.

----------------------------------------------------------

I contend we have had elite picks, and haven't done poorly for ourselves through the draft (particularly recently). And the future looks even brighter if a couple more of these guys develop (sans Dalpe, Murphy, Dumoulin, Rask) in the short term. Picking 5-9 this year also isn't as crappy as some would lead you to believe.

The Canes biggest issue, IMO, has been adding complimentary pieces, and to a lesser extent, player development (Mo was awful at this). And thirdly, you can't discount our market, because it is has been an extenuating circumstance that is what it is (el-cheapo, etc.).

I think we are right there at turning the corner, I really do. Things are falling into place - better drafting, better player development, a good core group of young players, more stable ownership, a proud and loyal fanbase, revenues.

Now we need some complimentary pieces. Now, not later, now. I have to believe upper level management knows this, they are smart folks, and are going to pull the trigger at making the team better without handicapping themselves with this el-cheapo budget.

----------------------------------------------------------

At least that's what my gut tells me.

Edited by coastal_caniac

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