Jump to content
The Official Site of the Carolina Hurricanes
OBXer

New CBA or Lockout? "All things CBA"

Recommended Posts

The owners locked the players out a few years ago to get the deal they wanted. The fans lost a season behind that. Fast forward a few years, and it's deja vu all over again. While I realize that some changes need to be made, somebody has to realize that the fans aren't going to continue to come back if there is going to be a lock out/strike/work stoppage every few years.

Find out what each side really would settle for and work to that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I say for every calendar game on the regular schedule that they miss, we wait that many games before we return, and I mean we call up the ticket office and say we either get a refund for that many games, or cancel our season tickets.

Next thing you know we will have fan scabs, the owners will be handing out 3 dollar tickets and a free jersey so it looks like we are there... Man this stuff is tough business... going to have to bring out the clamps (for those who get the reference...)

clamps.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

NASCAR can't fill seats because people don't have disposable income these days. NASCAR did not have a labor dispute that PO'd the fans. If the players and owners think a lock out in this economy is a good idea, they're demented. The expanding hockey market and revenues will disappear and the owners and players will alienate the regular fan who loves the game. No one wants to go watch prima donnas who want to gouge fans. Just my thoughts on it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Next thing you know we will have fan scabs, the owners will be handing out 3 dollar tickets and a free jersey so it looks like we are there... Man this stuff is tough business... going to have to bring out the clamps (for those who get the reference...)

clamps.png

Not yet clamps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I dont buy any of this..."I wont come back" talk. This is a just a way for fans to vent. Fans came back in droves after both previous stoppages. They'll be back again. The owners are not quaking in their boots because a few thousand fans threaten to quit watching. You're not hurting the players or owners by bailing out. You're hurting the concessions people, the front office staff, and many others that are not rich millionaires.

Keep in mind that season ticket holders that ask for a refund, will more than likely give up their STH priority. When they start up again, you'll be watching the Staal's, Semin, and Skinner from the rafters.

Relax and let it take its course. I firmly believe there will be a season. However, I think we can scratch October and nothing could help the Canes more than not having to play that brutal west coast road trip.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I dont buy any of this..."I wont come back" talk. This is a just a way for fans to vent. Fans came back in droves after both previous stoppages. They'll be back again. The owners are not quaking in their boots because a few thousand fans threaten to quit watching. You're not hurting the players or owners by bailing out. You're hurting the concessions people, the front office staff, and many others that are not rich millionaires.

Keep in mind that season ticket holders that ask for a refund, will more than likely give up their STH priority. When they start up again, you'll be watching the Staal's, Semin, and Skinner from the rafters.

Relax and let it take its course. I firmly believe there will be a season. However, I think we can scratch October and nothing could help the Canes more than not having to play that brutal west coast road trip.

So you are saying that that fans should just sit back and enjoy the show? The only way we, as fans, have to voice our opinion is through our wallets. It's good that you are so forgiving.

Not all fans come back to a sport after a lockout/strike.

Signed,

A former MLB fan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I most likely won't stay away, but I won't be back for awhile or often. I can see just as good on TV. The food is cheaper. I don't have to listen to obnoxious fans, and if they stink,I can turn them off. They don't seem to care much about the fans,(except to see ho much money they can get from them) so why should I care about them? The league has had, I believe, four straight years of increasing revenues, and now the greed from both sides are risking killing the momentum they have built. There are millions of people just getting by, and millions of people unemployed, and these wealthy folks want more,more,more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Look. I'm as angry as anyone else. I want the season to start on time, etc, etc.

However, I'm fine with anyone that decides to bail. It's a personal decision. All I know is that Raleigh is pretty lean on things to do from Nov-Mar and I love the game. Darn-tootin I'm sticking with the team no matter what.

It's not a matter of me being "forgiving." I'm not giving up 4 years of STH priority by being overly emotional about a situation that I have no control over. I may get better seats or some other benefit by sticking it out.

I firmly believe that 3 out of 4 people that say they wont be back, will in fact be back and the NHL knows it. Sure, they'll be a minor impact at first, but it certainly wont cripple the league and it wont last long.

So you are saying that that fans should just sit back and enjoy the show? The only way we, as fans, have to voice our opinion is through our wallets. It's good that you are so forgiving.

Not all fans come back to a sport after a lockout/strike.

Signed,

A former MLB fan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I dont want to get into a political discussion regarding millionaires and the out-of-work or poor people that hate them.

If you have disposable income and a product or service is available that you want to buy...buy it. If not, then you spend your money on other important areas of life.

Greed and all the ugliness that goes with it has been around much longer than the NHL. Of course they're greedy and of course they're looking out for themselves. When have people in business not been like that?

In the case of the Canes, all info I've received is that this was one of the best STH years ever. PK was and still is greedy. Nothing changed. They have a business to run and it's not a non-profit. You dont come across as a fan of the live game experience and that's fair. The lifeblood of the league is based on STHs and not casual fans. Casual fans that are peeved likely will stay away for awhile. The die-hards will be there to keep the team running so when Joe Casual decides to come back, there will still be a team to watch.

I most likely won't stay away, but I won't be back for awhile or often. I can see just as good on TV. The food is cheaper. I don't have to listen to obnoxious fans, and if they stink,I can turn them off. They don't seem to care much about the fans,(except to see ho much money they can get from them) so why should I care about them? The league has had, I believe, four straight years of increasing revenues, and now the greed from both sides are risking killing the momentum they have built. There are millions of people just getting by, and millions of people unemployed, and these wealthy folks want more,more,more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From a specific Hurriane point of view, their timing is actually very good. I was slipping after last year. Had there been a lock out at the start of last year I wouldn't have walked, I'd have run away. After years of El Cheapo it would have been the final insult.

However, now that the Canes specifically have stepped up big time to finally try to put a playoff team on the ice, the fact is I have to see that. And so long as there's part of a season and some playoffs...I'll be back.

That said, outside of Minnesota, not sure about other markets.

Anyway, two sequential work stoppages just seems like a bad idea. I'm not saying we might not miss some preseason, but I'm betting we don't see a prolonged lock out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love your idea of a Fan Union.

I wonder if such a thing has ever been tried.

Starting with everyone who is a STH or multiple game holder, heck even get some corporate sponsers in there.

Must be a reason it's never been done, but it is intriguing.

I would agree to be the NHLFA rep. I promise to spend one weekend per month picketing the NHL offices in New York city complete with signs. I also agree to spend one week per summer at the Hall of Fame in Toronto explaining the fans positions. As soon as I can get the bank account set up I will let everybody know where to send the monthly dues.....stay tuned for further updates.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you're of the mind that both sides are greedy that's ok. I think there is a true sub-story within the greed that is woth discussing. That is: What type of league/franchise/player compact will work best?

Players: Spread the rich team's money around, employ more players, and try to pick-off the floundering franchises. Meanwhile, pay as much as the market bears witha a hard cap.

Owners: (Mostly) Rich keep theirs, and lesser franchises get some support. Keep pay low enough to allow lesser teams to survive with a lower cap.

Where do you stand? Owners and what's mine is mine (mostly)? Players and what's your's is ours (share with players and lesser franchises). What is a fair compromise? Share a littel more, but takers get less? How much?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really like the union's idea of the ability to trade away unused cap space. It allows a budget team a way to improve and a deep pockets team a way to spend more money. It's voluntary revenue sharing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The 94 MLB strike hit me hard. I have only been to one MLB game since. I practically grew up in Wrigley, my grandpa taking me to every home game all summer.

I dunno. I felt like I lost my childhood in that strike. I never forgave, and after taking a break from the game, I realized just how boring it is, and how full of prima donnas it was. I changed me forever.

NHL in 2005 was different. Innocence was long gone, so I just went with the flow knowing this was the action of two greedy parties. Forgiveness (or whatever) was there. I hungered for the action. I didn't care how grubby my "dealer" was, I wanted more.

I'll be back after this. However, the wife has made it clear to me if this goes the whole year, she's done. And she's not kidding. If this lockout lasts all year, I'll either go to a single ticket, or find someone else to go with. There will be losses.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm going to give this some time and see how it plays out.

Not that I haven't given some thought to "what if", but I can't see any short term scenarios where I would walk away.

This sucks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They have a business to run and it's not a non-profit. You dont come across as a fan of the live game experience and that's fair. The lifeblood of the league is based on STHs and not casual fans. Casual fans that are peeved likely will stay away for awhile. The die-hards will be there to keep the team running so when Joe Casual decides to come back, there will still be a team to watch.

It may not be intended to be a non-profit, but the Hurricanes have only made money for PK in two seasons out of the entire time they've been in Carolina. We like to imagine that the fan base is fairly solid, but even when they averaged 17K it still took 2 rounds of playoffs to break even.

The Canes can probably survive a work stoppage, since losing money is a fairly standard operational activity. But the difference between continuing to lose money, and finally reaching a point where the team can afford to compete for free agents and long-term deals year after year, is entirely due to appealing to fans who do not currently watch every game.

Are they going to be convinced to make the Canes part of their yearly budget when the sport constantly cycles through labor issues? Unlikely. Are more of the die-hards going to shift into the once-in-a-while category? Probably.

Is any of this good news? No. Work stoppages are like tic-tac-toe and nuclear war.. the only way to win is not to play.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Luke DeCock offered his take in the N & O yesterday. Pulls no punches, it's almost all greedy owners this time, and if there's a lock out it will be owners utter arrogance that we fans are dupes who just can't help but come back for our fix when it's over. Basically, the owners got everything they wanted last time, and just want more. Also instead of some revenue sharing for the poor teams, they just want salaries so low that the poor teams can scrape by.

Luke DeCock

Generally I'm a free market type. But if you're going to have a league with more than 15 teams, you're going to have to get into some smallish markets. If your going to do that, you're going to have to give those teams a shot at the ring. The last thing a small market team needs is years of no shot and years of terribleness. I love this market and our particular brand of fans, but where would the Canes be if they hadn't won the cup and made two deep playoff runs? They'd be a joke and a curiosity at best. I can almost guarantee I would not have bought 6 years worth of season tickets, pretty sure it's not just me.

The league needs some way to keep the lower markets going. Contraction just contracts interest in hockey to Canada and as a 4th sport in major cities.

The league needs to use some kind of revenue sharing, limit the work around mega front loaded contracts, and put rules on itself to keep salaries from going out of control. But to have record receipts after imposing everything they wanted, then come back and not only ask for more, but open with a draconian cuts, and then put the season at risk if they don't get what they want.....

The owners and Betman are probably thinking, "Hey it worked out fine last time. Let's just do it again." Last time was different. This time will not end as well for the NHL if there is any lengthy lock out.

Edited by remkin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with rem it won't end as well this time for the NHL if they go to a full lockout.

I also agree in part with DeCock that the onus is on the owners this time to respond with a fair proposal. Their proposal (to me) has more the feel of a union breaking undertaking then a labor negotiation.

The players side is not without fault. They haven't addressed contract limits and salary cap proposals, etc. yet.

Next Wednesday should give us a clue into where the negotiations are going. There is still enough time to get a deal done if the NHL owners want one before December. I have a growing feeling they want to lose the first part of the season.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Luke DeCock offered his take in the N & O yesterday. Pulls no punches, it's almost all greedy owners this time, and if there's a lock out it will be owners utter arrogance that we fans are dupes who just can't help but come back for our fix when it's over. Basically, the owners got everything they wanted last time, and just want more. Also instead of some revenue sharing for the poor teams, they just want salaries so low that the poor teams can scrape by.

Luke DeCock

Generally I'm a free market type. But if you're going to have a league with more than 15 teams, you're going to have to get into some smallish markets. It your going to do that, you're going to have to give those teams a shot at the ring. The last thing a small market team needs is years of no shot and years of terribleness. I love this market and our particular brand of fans, but where would the Canes be if they hadn't won the cup and made two deep playoff runs? They'd be a joke and a curiosity at best. I can almost guarantee I would not have bought 6 years worth of season tickets, pretty sure it's not just me.

The league needs some way to keep the lower markets going. Contraction just contracts interest in hockey to Canada and as a 4th sport in major cities.

The league needs to use some kind of revenue sharing, limit the work around mega front loaded contracts, and put rules on itself to keep salaries from going out of control. But to have record receipts after imposing everything they wanted, then come back and not only ask for more, but open with a draconian cuts, and then put the season at risk if they don't get what they want.....

The owners and Betman are probably thinking, "Hey it worked out fine last time. Let's just do it again." Last time was different. This time will not end as well for the NHL if there is any lengthy lock out.

I guess my biggest question is how is this owners greed? If I had purchased a business and was receiving less than 50% of the revenue, how come asking for more is greed. The large increases were more a benefit to the players side.

Not taking sides yet but it seems to me that the players are still way ahead in this, but the players seem to want to point the finger at 30 rich guys paying the bills rather than the larger number of rich guys receiving the bigger share of the pie.

Edited by winger52

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Still not sure if I have a grasp on the overall situation. . I believe the players are willing to extend the current CBA for one year and negotiate through the season. If so, why are the owners against this proposal?

I don't understand what king of revenue is being discussed. Is it revenue from ticket sales? Does it include apparel wear? TV contracts? How long does a player need to play before getting a slice of the pie?

If there is a lockout the losers are the worker bees at the PNC

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess my biggest question is how is this owners greed? If I had purchased a business and was receiving less than 50% of the revenue, how come asking for more is greed. The large increases were more a benefit to the players side.

Not taking sides yet but it seems to me that the players are still way ahead in this. I am not taking sides yet, but the players seem to want to point the finger at 30 rich guys paying the bills rather than the larger number of rich guys receiving the bigger share of the pie.

I was mostly quoting the article by DeCock who has a very clear cut opinion on this. But his historical context does color my view on this, since I was a very casual fan during the lock out and didn't really care about it.

This is a unique business. I own three restaurants and there is almost no analogy between my businesses and a major sports league. The NHL is a cabal of extremely rich owners most of whom made their fortunes before they owned the team, and a union of extraordinarily well compensated, top box talented, celebrity employees. The thing is while the owners do own the show, the employees ARE the show. And the consumers are a bunch of people with a love of the game and an emotional attachment to the little monopoly that is our franchise. The only useful analogy in my opinion is other major sports leagues, and much of what is "right" or "greedy" is relative and needs historical context.

I am no expert in this stuff and so I quote the DeCock article, but if he is accurately describing the history to this point, then there is a large element of greed here.

Last time around the owners basically went extreme on the players locking them out forever until the players cried uncle and pretty much conceded everything. Then the NHL had a resurgence and nice success. But that was not enough and now are trying to deeply cut more or threatening to lock out.

And it is worst at the top basically the big market teams want to make as much as humanly possible, and just keep the small market teams barely alive on scraps. They seem to be saying that the player's compensation should be based on the lowest denominator. "If Columbus can't pay you, you're making too much. Let's let Columbus (and Raleigh) just eek out a living, and set the bar for the average player salary. Then we here in New York and Montreal will just count the cash."

Oh and to add this, Bettman apparently promised that the new (last) agreement would ensure no increase in ticket prices, which have in fact increased significantly.

Again I'm a free market person and hardly a union sympathizer, and an owner myself of sorts, but that still sounds a lot like greed to me.

EDIT: Here is a more neutral assessment of the situation: Gives the owners a bit more sympathy.

Fox Sports

The good news is that at the end of it they predict most or all of the regular season will happen.

Edited by remkin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Changes need to be made to ensure the financial health of the smaller market teams. Right now, the owners want to roll the salary back enough so the weak sisters can survive without the help of the deep pockets teams. If I was a deep pockets team, that sounds good to me. The problem with the owners taking this stance is that they just shut down the league a few years ago just to get the deal they have now. That is why I have difficulty siding with the owners.

I can see the percentages needing to swing back to the owners side some, but not to the extent they are asking for. The floor needs to be a percentage of the cap, not the cap minus whatever number of dollars. I love the idea of budget teams being able to sell or trade some of their unused cap space. This is a way to have revenue sharing and the rich teams can directly benefit by giving something (money, picks, or assets) to a smaller market team. Have the teams still have to meet the cap floor, but they could use the remainder as an asset to better the team. Just think how fun this would make the trade deadline. A team at the cap could still make a move and trade for a player and cap space to fit him in the salary structure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

figures from TSN.CA

Current system@

Salary cap: $70.2 million

Salary floor: $54.2 million

NHL's proposal@

Salary cap: $50.8 million

Salary floor: $38.8 million

NHLPA's proposal (assuming a fixed $16-million gap is kept in place)@

Salary cap: $69 million

Salary floor: $53 million

It seems as if the two groups have a wide chasm before they can come to some sort of an agreement. Also, I don’t see the logic in asking for ten years before a player can be an UFA. Most players entire careers aren’t that long. Guess we will have a better idea after Wednesday if the season will start on time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...