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Greg-N-Ral

All inclusive goalie discussion

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After feeling like Khudobin was better than Cam at the beginning of the season, Peters has proved recently he can play when needed, why not dump Cam while we can? It's been years since the Canes have been in the playoffs, Cam lets in a ton of soft goals in the first periods of games. I know when I sit down at the PNC for game time, I feel better having Peters or Khudobin in net. Cam is to hot and cold for consistency in my opinion. Why not trade him for a forward that can add some offense? 

Great points!  

Problem is, few (if any) teams would want to take Ward and his $6.5-million per salary!!

At 2-3 million, perhaps, but not at $6-million+!!

 

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Great discussion ... I hope JR is debating these points in his head right now too.   I get the overall feeling that the fans and even the players feel good when Pete-Dawg is in goal lately and iffy when Cam is there.   The team has performed for Pete lately.  Yes, Cam has stood on his head at times.  But he's also flopped around like a boated fish at times and his glove side is vary erratic.   Cam hasn't had a strong year since 2009 and hasn't earned his pay grade since then either.    JR needs to explore ALL OPTIONS to rid the Canes of Cam's cap weight.   I'd roll the dice with Pete and Anton ... try to move at least a portion of Cam's cap out now.   Carry 3 tenders for a few games, see how Anton performs after the injury and if he's OK put Cam on waivers; maybe on re-entry JR can cut his loses and move Cam and at least half his $6.6 mil soon to be $6.8 mil cap somewhere away from Raleigh.  AND that move might even help wake of the captain, and his overpaid $7+ mil pay grade.

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Cam's salary is the biggest hurdle. I did read from Dreger or someone else that the Oilers inquired about Cam early this year. Now they have Bryz so we probably missed that boat. I really would prefer the Canes don't retain any of Cam's salary as I feel we are cash strapped as it is. Guess we'll see soon enough!

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Trading Wardo would be a huge mistake, and it's not going to happen. He is good, occasionally brilliant, and I honestly think he will play a key role in getting us back to the playoffs. What IS needed, I think, is for the organization to apply a little institutional memory of where he came from, how he got where he is now and to play him in a way that makes it easier for him to get him back to his Stanley Cup-winning form.

 

The year after the Canes won the Cup I wrote pretty extensively here about the challenge going forward for Cam. While there is no question that the Canes played great and earned the Cup as a team, there is also no denying that they rode their hot goalie - Cam - to get it. The Conn Smythe simply couldn't have gone to anyone else: he's a guy who had limited NHL experience and goes out at the most intense time of year and wins a Cup.

 

So after all the celebrating it's suddenly the start of 06-07, and Cam is faced with the comparative mundanity - and physical grind - of playing regular-season games night in and night out. It's an apples-and-oranges difference, and I think it took Cam until 2009 (last time we danced) to make the adaptation. He had literally no backup (unless you consider Graham Crackers a backup - I sure don't!). And lately he's had all this bad luck with injuries and last year's non-season (crazy short).

 

Given all the above and some other "perfect storm"-type elements (Peters knows this is his best chance, Khudobin has incentive to perform, but neither are ready to be every-night, Brodeur-type guys) I think platooning is the perfect solution. Ride whoever is hot and pick your opportunities to play one of the others when he needs a break or you've got back-to-back games. If that guy does great, start him again and see if he stays hot, and if not, go back to the other guy before he cools off.

 

Goalies are competitive by nature, and a little friendly competition in our goalie corps is just what the doctor ordered, IMO. It allows Cam to work on his compete level while still giving us a great chance to win when he's not in. To have three good options in net is a really rare situation, and we should use it to our short-term advantage and to Cam's long-term benefit. When the trade deadline rolls around, if we're on the brink of making the playoffs and feel like we're "one player away" from getting in, it gives us a couple of keepers to market - and there are always one or two contenders looking to shore up their goaltending pre-playoffs.

 

If it's more certain that we'll make the playoffs, try to keep all three. More than any other position, goaltending wins playoff games, and I believe it's just not possible to be "too deep" at that position. 

Edited by top-shelf-1

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Nice post top-shelf.  I also think platooning Cam has his best interest at heart, and is probably the best thing to do right now.  Trading him away at this point just seems like a knee-jerk fan reaction more than anything else.

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Man if we traded Cam and our goal tending situation went south it would take us years to be competitive. A good starting goalie is key. Umm I just looked at Peters stats this year..... WHat is happening?

Edited by bluedevil58

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I myself am all in for trading Cam, he is no way worth over six million a year. IMO for some reason everyone thinks that its not on Cam/any goalie. Can anyone really name how many great defensive players Brodeur(sp?) has had in his 1st 7 yrs as a goalie? Or who the d-men were for Roy, Hasek! Come they are/were great goalies and Cam isn't anywhere near close to where he should be. Yes he gets hurt a lot ( another reason to trade him if someone else is willing to take that chance) but when he is healthy he isn't that good. Yes he does get some great saves but he lets in more softies than his great save %. The d-men have a lot more ice to cover, have a lot more responsibility, take & give hits and have to block shot and passes and what does Cam/any goalie have to do,,,yep his little blue ice area/crease is it!! Where has he lead this team since 06! No way has he earned his way over paid contract that was extended because of how good he looked at the end of the 06 season. Like I have said before that was before the rest of the league knew his soft spots and take advantage of them too much!

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Like I have said before that was before the rest of the league knew his soft spots and take advantage of them too much!

 

One thing I wonder about is that. Once Khudoben or Peters become the #1, then over time teams figure them out too. It seems a #1 has to be able to be effective despite that. Might be part of the reason so many guys who look good as back ups faultered as #1 guys.

 

That to me would be the risk of trading Cam. Neither Peters nor Khudoben are tested #1's, and could both struggle as #1. Well that and it would be the shake up of all shake ups that could really affect the team negatively.

 

Right now I think trading Cam, in addition to hugely risky, could end up being another case of buying high, selling low, since Cam has been injured and not really put on a nice longish run of good games. 

 

For the sake of discussion, if Cam's salary makes him less tradable, then what do people actually think he would fetch? Just clearing cap space would not be a good move. This assumes that there is a guy out there making bucks that we could get in to take up the cap space. So what kind of player would he fetch? (I'm really asking everyone and anyone who wants to trade Cam).

Edited by remkin

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Great post Top-shelf, I agree with you and Coastal on all points and feel like trading Cam now would be a knee jerk reaction and would likely bite us hard later on either financially or if neither proven back up isn't able to make the switch to being a consistent #1.

 

I like the platooning idea but I'm not sure how a 3-way deal could work.  Khudobin is eligible for a rehab stint in Charlotte but once he's good to go, I think JR will be forced to move Peters or risk losing him off waivers.  Khudobin has the higher potential to be a #1 imo which is what we would need to platoon with Cam.  Its not that Peters hasnt played lights out because he has, but he is fighting for his NHL life and I fear what we are seeing is his best and the big question is whether or not he can keep this up and for how long.

 

I know some people dont like to factor in past performance and I would agree with that for aging players in the latter 1/3 of their careers but Cam is in the prime of his career and has proved he can take the ball and run with it as top-shelf mentioned above.  I agree he hasn't proven he can play at that level for an entire season since 09' but there is enough evidence to show that of the 3 goalies, he has the most potential to make a nice run again given the opportunity. 

 

I realize that Cam's contract is the sticking point for most of his detractors and I understand completely where the value argument comes from.  It is a valid argument but I think in the case of the Canes, any roster decision JR needs to make should be based only on the goal of playoffs this year and he should worry less about $ right now.  Truth is that even with Cam's contract, the Canes are not at the cap and if you factor in the surplus of defensemen that are always needed for the playoffs, there is enough room for trade deadline moves. 

 

This team has to make the playoffs this year.

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I think that with the injury history of our number 1 and 2 goalies over the past 2 seasons, our best interest at the moment is to carry 3 goalies and not trade any of them.  The coaching staff must not have much faith in the ability of guys in Charlotte right now, because even when Peters was struggling in the beginning of his call up, they never let anyone else in net but him.  I believe it would be wise to make sure that we are going to have a healthy #1 and #2 for a period of time before we even explore that option at all.  I also don't get paid by any hockey organization as a general manager, which probably will not be changing anytime in the near future! :thumbsup2:

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Interesting stat: this season the Canes are scoring 1.93 goals/ game with Pete in net (including last nights goal-fest) as compared to 2.38 goals/ game with Ward in net.  Note that I didn't include empty netters in those calculations (1 for each goalie).

 

I'll leave interpretations up to others at this point.

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I just listened to Amber Jaye's sitdown with JR on State of the Canes and it is pretty clear that we won't risk a goalie on waivers. Somebody will be going and soon.

 

Its going to be a tough decision.

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Guys, 
 
I'll go Executive-Summary style on this week's Goalie Stats update.
 
With an above average defensive squad in front of them this year, 
here's how our 3 netminders are doing so far:
 
 
n= 14;  JUSTIN PETERS;      Goals Against= 2.35;     Save%= 92.2;      Salary (Cap)=    $500,000
n= 15;  CAM WARD;             Goals Against= 2.91;     Save%= 90.6;      Salary (Cap)= $6,500,000
n=  2;  ANTON KHUDOBIN;   Goals Against= 2.00;     Save%= 92.9;      Salary (Cap)=     $800,000
 
 
 
Ranking on each vital metric yields...
 
SAVE %
#1 KHUDOBIN (best)
#2 PETERS
#3 WARD (worst)
 
 
GOALS AGAINST
#1 KHUDOBIN (best)
#2 PETERS
#3 WARD (worst)
 
 
SALARY CAP ("VALUE")
#1 PETERS (best)
#2 KHUDOBIN 
#3 WARD (worst)
 

 
Go Canes!!!  Lets make it 4 in a row!!!!


I just listened to Amber Jaye's sitdown with JR on State of the Canes and it is pretty clear that we won't risk a goalie on waivers. Somebody will be going and soon.

 

Its going to be a tough decision.


If we could only find a team to take on $6,500,000 in cap space, it would NOT be tough at all.

 

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Maybe Cam's woes are part of a larger Canadian decline.  Interesting article:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/the-decline-of-canadas-goalies/article15786050/?paged=1

 

I'd still keep Ward, but hope he returns to previous performance levels.  IMO he benefited from Barrasso's coaching, but seems to have drifted since then (plus the injuries).

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Maybe Cam's woes are part of a larger Canadian decline.  Interesting article:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/the-decline-of-canadas-goalies/article15786050/?paged=1

 

 

Thanks Wolf!!   Great link. 
 
I particularly agree with their statement that every fraction of a SAVE % matters!!!

Between 2008-09 and 2012-13, the average Canadian goalie stopped 90.9 per cent of the shots they faced; non-Canadians stopped 91.4 per cent. In a position where every fraction of a percentage point matters over the length of a season, that’s a significant gap.

 
 
Cam is a great example of the decline!  

Also worth noting... the average Canadian goalie stops 90.9%  (so far this year Wardo and his 6.5-mill cap hit salary has been stopping 90.6%)

 

Things change over time and so should the Canes! 

Think money ball and putting old fond feelings aside...

2006 is over and Cam's Value (performance/cap hit) is nearly non-existent in today's game.

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....2006 is over and Cam's Value (performance/cap hit) is nearly non-existent in today's game.

Your perspective is clear, but I'll express my opinion.  IMO, Cam has delivered more than just 2006, and carried the team in a couple of years.  I forget the exact year, but he personally carried them to the season's final game where they were eliminated, and ironically he had a terrible game (something like 4 goals on 12 shots).  Those years coincided with Barrasso as coach.

 

When Barrasso first arrived Cam seemed to perform worse, and maybe resented Barrasso's approach.  After a while he was positionally sound, very still in movement and rock solid technically, with angles, etc.  When Barrasso left he seemed to toss that out, and lean more on his athletic skills, which are considerable.

 

IMO Cam was far better in doing it Barrasso's way, and hasn't been the same goalie since Tom B left.  I think that version of Cam is still a possibility, but watching him flop around and be too aggressive outside the crease is painful, and something I believe TB would have put an end to.  I'm not sure he'll "find his game" unless he looks back at something he may prefer not to do, being just a technically sound goalie.  Back then it worked.

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Interesting stat: this season the Canes are scoring 1.93 goals/ game with Pete in net (including last nights goal-fest) as compared to 2.38 goals/ game with Ward in net.  Note that I didn't include empty netters in those calculations (1 for each goalie).

 

I'll leave interpretations up to others at this point.

I think this aspect is due to the Canes playing a more defense first scheme in front of Peters than Ward, thus scoring more goals. Since stats are being tossed around I thought I'd check a different stat that has been brought up before. Total shots faced.

Here are Cam's stats since 2006-07 season:

 

2006-07  

Total Shots Against- 1625

Total Goals Against- 167
Avg Shots per Game- 27 (60 Games)

Avg Goals per Game- 2.78

 

2007-08  

Total Shots Against- 1870

Total Goals Against- 180
Avg Shots per Game- 27 (69 Games)

Avg Goals per Game- 2.61

 

2008-09  

Total Shots Against- 1901
Total Goals Against- 160
Avg Shots per Game- 28 (68 Games)

Avg Goals per Game- 2.35

 

2009-10  

Total Shots Against- 1409
Total Goals Against- 119
Avg Shots per Game- 30 (47 Games)

Avg Goals per Game- 2.53

 

2010-11  

Total Shots Against- 2375
Total Goals Against- 184
Avg Shots per Game- 32 (74 Games)

Avg Goals per Game- 2.49

 

2011-12  

Total Shots Against- 2143
Total Goals Against- 182
Avg Shots per Game- 32 (68 Games)

Avg Goals per Game- 2.68

 

2012-13  

Total Shots Against- 477
Total Goals Against- 44
Avg Shots per Game- 28 (17 Games)

Avg Goals per Game- 2.59

 

2013-14  

Total Shots Against- 427
Total Goals Against- 40
Avg Shots per Game- 28 (15 Games)

Avg Goals per Game- 2.67

 

I think Cam's play is due to how much game time he gets. But there is a fine line concerning hard work and over working.  Another thing is for the first time in a long time, we have TWO very capable backups in Peters and Khudobin so the pressure of playing every night should no longer be a factor. Gone are the days in this age of hockey that a team rides their starter until he drops. Your Top tier teams have two starting goalies. Essentially a #1 and #1A.  If one were to go down, the team knows the next guy up is equal to the task at hand.

 

Khudobin hasn't been able to show us on a regular basis what he could do, as he went down very early in the season and only played 3 games. But in those 3 games, we have seen glimpses as to what we could expect out of him. Very positionally sound and rebound control has been really good.

 

Peters has played a lot better this season then in season's past, possibly due to confidence, the defense in front of him, and (I think this is the main reason) better coaching for him from the goalie coach standpoint. While one goalie may flounder under a certain teaching, another may flourish. What I've seen from him this season compared to season's past is greatly improved positioning.  Also his ability to deflect shots to less dangerous spots on the ice has improved, but still needs work.  His biggest knock is his lack of rebound control.  He is more of a blocker/deflector than someone who absorbs the shot.

 

All 3 have benefited from a much improved defense in front of them.  There are less chances of the opposition benefitting a loose puck in the slot or in front of the crease to cash in on a dirty goal.

Unless Cam turns into DiPietro, I really don't see the Canes moving him, unless they get a deal they cannot refuse.  More than likely, I see Khudobin as the odd man out.  Peters has seen more ice time, is cheaper (by $300k) and seems to now thrive in Mueller's system.

Khudobin's recovery from his injury is also a concern.  He was expected to return before Cam, which could possibly spell the injury is worse than initially suspected.

Edited by hopper915

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It would certainly seem that at least a short term conditioning stint in Charlottewould be used for Khudoben. How long is that allowed for?

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It would certainly seem that at least a short term conditioning stint in Charlottewould be used for Khudoben. How long is that allowed for?

 

I had to look it up but it appears a player can be sent to AHL for a conditioning stint but for no more than 14 consecutive days. The caveat is the player in this case Khudoben would have to agree to it. The league can also impose a penalty if they think a team is using it to circumvent reentry waivers. (I think that won't be the case in the Dobby situation).

 

It makes sense to me to send Dobby to Charlotte for a few games but the key is does it make sense to Dobby and the Canes.

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Can anyone really name how many great defensive players Brodeur(sp?) has had in his 1st 7 yrs as a goalie?

Actually, I can remember a couple.

 

Scott Stevens and Scott Niedermeyer, 2 Hall of Fame defensemen.

 

Not to mention an organization dedicated to defense first at a level unsurpassed in the NHL, for decades.

 

I just wanted to answer the quiz.

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Actually, I can remember a couple.

 

Scott Stevens and Scott Niedermeyer, 2 Hall of Fame defensemen.

 

Not to mention an organization dedicated to defense first at a level unsurpassed in the NHL, for decades.

 

I just wanted to answer the quiz.

 Yeah, those 2 d-men are really good. Glad you could remember those names.  I will have to look into Marty's stats in his 1st 7 yrs and see where/how him and Cam are! Plus did they help Marty or did he help them?

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 Yeah, those 2 d-men are really good. Glad you could remember those names.  I will have to look into Marty's stats in his 1st 7 yrs and see where/how him and Cam are! Plus did they help Marty or did he help them?

 

Marty can only keep pucks out of the net.  He can't play defense and keep pucks from getting deep in the zone and to the net. 

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