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Greg-N-Ral

All inclusive goalie discussion

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I say play the hot hand, but don't just bench Wardo. Give him another game or two, depending on his performance possibly more. If he sucks it up again, go back to your hot hand in Peters. I'd rather score less and still win than score more and lose. If the team is serious about the post-season, they won't get caught up in nostalgia with Ward. Goalies are a tough position to measure up, but looking at the numbers, the goalie they should be shopping is Ward. I like him, he has done great things for us, but he isn't anymore. We move him and he gets back into his game and kicks *edit*, good for him. We gain a huge amount of cap space to improve our team. If our other two goalies suddenly suck, we can use some of that cap to replace Ward and retain one of our two remaining goalies who are UFAs at years end. I've never been one to throw Cam under the bus too much, but he simply isn't performing to his contract. 

 

Khudobin won't garner much value because he's not played. Ward has the past to improve his value but the present to decrease it. The best return would come from moving Peters, he's our best goalie right now and will get us the best return. Ward could get a return, but the only way I see a team taking on his contract is by unloading a similar one. I don't know if that's something the team wants to do. 

 

The Goalie situation this season is intriguing and very hard to come to a solid conclusion with. If Ward was his solid self, there wouldn't be much discussion, it would be either Peters or Khudo. Ward has played himself in a dangerous position on the team, he's becoming expendable with the play of Peters and Khudobin's play earlier. Until we get Khudo a few games and see where he's at, I don't think any move or decision is made. Khudobin plays like he did earlier, and you have a really tough decision to make. You have Peters and Khudobin who are performing above their expectations, and Ward who is playing well below his. In that situation, Ward would be the right goalie to move. IF we want to win now. And from the atmosphere of the organization they want to win now. 

 

 

Who knows what happens. I don't see Ward being moved, but I don't think moving one of the others is the best route to go down either. Both are UFAs, but both are making a case to stay with the organization. Khudobin shouldn't be considered the guy to go because he was injured. That's irresponsible and unfair to Khudobin. The organization was very high on him when he was signed. He proved they should be with his play early. Now we have an underachieving starter and an overachieving backup backup. It's tough. Whatever happens, I just hope the decision isn't just based on recent play, but also on return, and what it will leave the team with when it's all said and done. 

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aren't both Dobby and Peters UFAs at the end of year. since Peters most likely will not be resigned do the Canes try and see what trade value he has?  what sort of game experience do they give Dobby to prove he has recovered from his injury?  in terms of trading Ward what team would be willing to take on his massive contract given his level of play since winning the Cup?

 If Peters maintains his level of play, why wouldn't they resign him? He is a draft pick that has come through the Canes system. I would think that would count for something when choosing between goalies of similar abilities.

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I might as well weigh in.

 

Khudobin: small, great athleticism. He had a great start here, but that's only 2 games.  Great stats with Boston, but that's behind Boston's D, and only 21 games.  His AHL/ KHL numbers over a much bigger sample size (199 games, including recent years) are good but nowhere near as gaudy as his NHL stats.  And since some of the scouting reports on him I've seen mentioned inconsistency, I'd like to see more before handing him the reins to the team. 

 

Ward: small, great athleticism. I think he's overpaid.  But that's 1) water under the bridge; 2) more JRs fault than Wards (every player is going to take as much as he can get). If we think he's overpaid, I've got to assume any teams interested in him will feel similarly.  So moving him would almost certainly require eating part of his salary (or eating a bad contract in return, which is pretty much the same thing).  Let's say we'd have to retain $2 M/yr to move him.  That's basically the same as keeping him at $4.3 M/yr. Is he playing up to that level right now? No. Is he still capable of playing up to that level? I think there's a decent chance the answer is "yes". I'm basing a lot of that on what he's showed in the past and in the way he played in his first 4 games back from the injury (with the exception of the first period of the 1st Boston game).  I think he stole a point for us in the 2nd Boston game, and likely 2 pts each in the 2 games after that by turning back early chances that could easily have turned the game in the other direction.  And the team is scoring significantly more goals when Ward is in net as compared to Peters (2.73/g vs. 1.81/g).  That could be random, but there's a decent chance it's linked to a more "packed in" mindset the boys have when playing in front of Peters given his rebound issues. 

 

Peters: big, not nearly as athletic as the other two.  He's been playing great lately.  But I'm still not completely sold on him as a #1 NHL goalie.  Part of that has to do with how terrible he's looked in shootouts to me (and yes, I'm including his 1 shootout win where he had 1 save, looked like a cardboard cutout on a goal, and the third opponent missed the net).  At first I thought it might be due to his lack of athleticism; get him going back & forth and it's all over.  But after watching the OT goal against him last night I'm starting to consider another hypothesis: that Pete might not perform well under extreme pressure.  It seemed to me like that was a fairly weak goal, one that he'd have easily stopped during regulation.  Soft wrister from a fair distance away, perhaps screened a bit, but not exactly the population of a small town in front of the net.   The kind of goal that some here would blast Ward for if he gave it up. I have to note that I only saw the goal on a live internet feed, so the resolution was very poor.  I'm happy to stand corrected if my interpretation is wrong.  But back to the pressure thing: that might explain why Pete did so poorly until he got enough NHL games under his belt to feel comfortable and why he looks so bad in shootouts.  Just an exploratory hypothesis that needs further analysis.   Bottom line: like Kudo, I'd also want to see much more of Peters before handing him the reins to the team.  

 

I like the idea of keeping all 3 for as long as possible (after Kudo comes back from a conditioning stint in Charlotte) and see how they perform as the season progresses.  Ending with some kind of rotation between the two we keep (which wouldn't have to be 50/50).

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At this point, I think Muller has to ride Peters until the magic wears off. This isn't the same kid that drove me batty in the past. Hard to say if he's ready to be a full time NHL number 1 goalie, but luckily I don't have to make that call.

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I don't envy JR having to make a decision on which goalie to let go.  Really can't see us carrying all 3 forever given the roster decisions that will have to be made elsewhere to accommodate that when Bellemore and Lindholm are ready to come back.

 

But you have to give Peters credit, he's getting it done, along with the defensive play in front of him.

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I think you put Dr, Khu in Charlotte for some conditioning and then bring him in to platoon with Peters to see what shakes out. Five to ten games should be sufficient. During that time Cam can sit with John and Tripp.

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I wonder if any other teams even want Cam and his way over priced salary? With only getting his team to the playoffs 1 time as him being the number 1 goalie, probably isn't worth 6.5 million a year! Plus that fact that he gets injured quite often, may be another reason he may not be wanted!  Just some thoughts to think about!

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Please explain why Cam should be kept, what has he done since he was named  the #1 goalie?-- 1 playoff season since 06 (when he was a backup)?  :twilight-zone:  :thumbdown:  :dizzy:

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So I know that it is redundant in a way, but I started a poll on trading Cam.

 

Why a poll? Because the discussion is interesting, but it is the same people over and over with the same fairly entrenched positions (myself included). I'm interested in what a larger sample thinks.

 

Mods: If there is a need to merge it is fine, but I'd lose control of the poll, so maybe let it run a bit? My question does not cover Peters or Khudoben and in a couple of days it might be mute anyway if one of them is actually moved.

 

Anyway, please vote! You don't have to get into the debate. Just vote.

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How about another option...

Yes. I'm for trading anybody on the team if the return was good enough.

Everybody has a price (or a value in this case). Any trade that would improve the team would be great.

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Cam has struggled this season, that is absolutely true...but I don't get the "what has he ever done for us rawr rawr rawr" that gets thrown around. Cam Ward has stolen a lot of games in recent seasons that Carolina otherwise had no business winning thanks to a lot of terrible defenses that Rutherford has put on the ice. And then the debacle last year when he was gone and all of a sudden Carolina became hot garbage. I'm not saying he's elite, but he also isn't anywhere near as terrible as some make him out to be.

 

He's also the only known commodity in Carolina. Peters is on a hot streak behind an improved defense, and Khudobin has given us such a small sample size we really don't know what we've got with him. So those are your options: a struggling #1, a hot AHLer, and an unknown. My opinion is you sell high on Peters, hope that Khudobin doesn't bolt for a #1 job somewhere in the offseason, and then next season if Khudobin is the clear, far and away best option all season long, then you entertain the trade Cam Ward talk around the deadline.

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How about another option...

Yes. I'm for trading anybody on the team if the return was good enough.

Everybody has a price (or a value in this case). Any trade that would improve the team would be great.

 

The only problem is how squishy it gets. Of course if a team wanted to trade us their stud top 5 goalie and their number one draft pick, but the options get too many.

 

I guess I could just say YES. NO. And leave the rest to the comments.

 

But I kind of like it. Polls are fun, but always imperfect.

Edited by remkin

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This certainly is feeding the fire in terms of the boards little battle over the subject. A lot of you know me and my stance on the team, and my stance on Ward in the past. IF we could get fair value, I'd jump all over it. It's not impossible to replace a starter position on your team. Internally we have the ability to do so more than ever before since having Ward our starter. And there's a few goalies in free agency that could come in and take starter if Peters and Khudobin falter (unlikely). One of these two could prove an NHL starter by the end of the year. Peters could cool off, or he simply couldn't as well. Khudobin could come in and need a few to get back into form, and he could come in and kick some serious *edit*. What then? Two "backup" goaltenders who are playing above and beyond their paygrade. And one who is playing well below his. Who moves then? 

 

A lot of people throw out that "What if Ward gets traded and kicks serious *edit* with his new team?" Well, same could happen if we trade Peters or Dobby. We trade Peters and he claims a starting position somewhere else and never slows down. Same could happen with Dobby. Then theres the chance this happens and Ward still doesn't find his game, then we're stuck with a 6.7 million goalie playing badly and an 800k goalie carrying the team. What happens at free agency then? Dobby would want a big pay bump and we'd be hindered to rightfully give it to him with Cam's contract.

 

Peters is proving to be worth an early second round draft pick lately (picked 38th overall I think). And to take anything away from him that he has done lately is unfair. Some people are just late bloomers. This guy worked on his positioning this past offseason and looks amazing now with positioning. Someone stated elsewhere here that obviously his big knock is rebound control. Well, if rebound control is what he trains on next offseason, damn I'd like to see what he looks like then. 

 

Khudobin was getting serious love around the league early this season, the day of his injury there was an NHL article on his ability to develop into a starter over this season. He shouldn't be forgotten either. Even if Peters and Khudobin neither are clear cut starters yet, there's nothing proving they never will be. Ward's contract his hurting the team. His play is hurting the team. If he can't fix his issues and doesn't recover by the end of the season, how would we get rid of him then? 

 

Sometimes in business you just gotta take a chance. I think this a chance that if played right, could pay off greatly for this team NOW and in the long run as well.

Edited by SuckaPunchd

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My vote, for what it's worth, is behind Cam 100%. IMHO, this guy faced more rubber, and played many more games than any 2 goalies during his tenure since the '06 season, due to the low budget status of this team during those years. The wear and tear of those years surely resulted from the number of games he's been asked to play each year (I believe that it would be telling if someone could pull out the average # of games he's played as our primary, and compare to others in the league).Further, if my memory is correct, he was facing 40+ shots on goal many nights, when this team's lacking defense was more attuned to puck movement than blocking/limiting shots.

Not being even faintly knowlegable of hockey mechanics, and particularly those incurred by goalies, I can only imagine that playing as frequently as he often has, has taken a tremendous toll on him physically. Is there any wonder that he's had a number of typical injuries, as well as several of the freek type.

Does Cam have weaknesses, surely, but are there any goalies that do not? I would suggest that given the tremendous number of SOG's we've witnessed, there has been ample opportunity for teams to be encyclopedic about his tendencies. I would suggest, however, that rather than this being a negative, at least he is more than aware of these holes and can therefore work on correcting tham.

On the other hand, as many have/are pointing out, our knowlege, as well as other team's knowlege of Peters' and Khodobin's tendencies are very limited. Isn't it conceivable that as both of these 2 gain experience that their tendencies will become more common place?

The situation that this team facies with our 3 goal tenders, as I have alluded to in several past posts, to me is tremendously "unfair", if I can be allowed to use that greatly overused term. In other words, the Canes are being placed in the unreasonable position of choosing between one goalie who earned his place on the team thru years of sacrifice due to poor defense, another who we just picked up and who's shown great promise in limited exposure, and a 3rd who's been groomed for years in the minor league system, earning his chance at The Bigs!

AND, this untenable position comes as the result of injury to both our primary goalies.

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Cam has struggled this season, that is absolutely true...but I don't get the "what has he ever done for us rawr rawr rawr" that gets thrown around. Cam Ward has stolen a lot of games in recent seasons that Carolina otherwise had no business winning thanks to a lot of terrible defenses that Rutherford has put on the ice. And then the debacle last year when he was gone and all of a sudden Carolina became hot garbage. I'm not saying he's elite, but he also isn't anywhere near as terrible as some make him out to be.

 

He's also the only known commodity in Carolina. Peters is on a hot streak behind an improved defense, and Khudobin has given us such a small sample size we really don't know what we've got with him. So those are your options: a struggling #1, a hot AHLer, and an unknown. My opinion is you sell high on Peters, hope that Khudobin doesn't bolt for a #1 job somewhere in the offseason, and then next season if Khudobin is the clear, far and away best option all season long, then you entertain the trade Cam Ward talk around the deadline.

 

The most logical post on this subject I have read or ever will read.

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I'll not bore those of you on this site with my treatise written on the "All inclusive goalie discussion", which probably needs to be merged with this topic, but the long and short of it was that I don't believe Cam should be traded.

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The only problem is how squishy it gets. Of course if a team wanted to trade us their stud top 5 goalie and their number one draft pick, but the options get too many.

 

I guess I could just say YES. NO. And leave the rest to the comments.

 

But I kind of like it. Polls are fun, but always imperfect.

I really didn't want you to add anything, but it is my choice. I think JR should listen to any offer and if an offer as good as what Pittsburgh got in the JStaal trade came along...

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Not really intending to flame any fires. 

 

While I welcome any opinions on here, I am not really after them. I just wanted to see how it breaks down with hopefully a bigger, wait for it….n value...

 

Is there a large contingency that would trade him, or is it just a few loud voices? 

 

Ideally comments would be specifically aimed at the actual idea of trading our number one goalie. Why would you do it? What do you think we'd get back? 

 

What are the risks? 

 

But mostly just want people to VOTE.

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If you are in the group unhappy with Ward's play, or just want the guy run out of town, why on earth would you trade Cam Ward right now? 

 

Just play Peters or Khudobin, make the Playoffs (seed doesn't matter), insert Ward, win Conn Smyth and SC.  He's proven he's capable in that role.  

 

Just pray that Peters and/or Khudobin gets you there.  ;)

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This is all Pete-dawg's fault. If he hadn't started playing like an NHL goalie we could have put him on waivers and been done with it.

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This is all Pete-dawg's fault. If he hadn't started playing like an NHL goalie we could have put him on waivers and been done with it.

 

To wit:

 

Per Elias, only two NHL goalies (Martin Jones and Roberto Luongo) have better numbers in December than Justin Peters (1.38, .951, 3-1-1).

 

 

 

Also kind of ironic to this discussion since so many in Vancouver wanted rid of Luongo. 

Edited by remkin

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I agree 100 percent w/KJUNCANE. Yes Cam has had injuries the last 2years, but especially in the post-2009 years, he has played in front of a sub-par defense and been asked to play a huge number of games. We have not had a strong backup goalie since Cam became the #1, including several stints by Peters. Since we have already proven 2 goalies can go down in short order, if we trade any of the 3 this early in the season, who is waiting in the wings if 2 go down again? I'm happy for Peters that he is finally playing consistently well, but realistically what would we get if we traded him that would be more valuable than having depth at the most important position? Play Peters as long as he stays hot, but I will be shocked if Cam is not our clear number one again soon. Carrying 3 goalies will be tough, but at least until the trade deadline, I hope we keep them all. Competition is a good thing, and I believe (hope) that when Cam gets another chance, he is back at the top of his game. 2006 proved Cam thrives on pressure, and now with another goalie playing well, here's to hoping he will thrive on a different kind of pressure (to get his job back). I believe he will.

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