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Greg-N-Ral

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I think the "trade Cam" folks have some valid points but no matter how often they repeat them, it still seems like a kneejerk reaction because Cam is not the problem. Shipping him out trying to fix something else and be left with two goalies who, though they are playing very good right now, only have a combined 90 games regular NHL season experience over 6 years and none at all in the playoffs, is just asking for more parody.

 

Even if Cam agreed to waive his NTC I doubt it will be unconditional and JR will be at a disadvantage from the start to get any "fair value" in return. I don't see it happening.

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I think the "trade Cam" folks have some valid points but no matter how often they repeat them, it still seems like a kneejerk reaction because Cam is not the problem. Shipping him out trying to fix something else and be left with two goalies who, though they are playing very good right now, only have a combined 90 games regular NHL season experience over 6 years and none at all in the playoffs, is just asking for more parody.

 

Even if Cam agreed to waive his NTC I doubt it will be unconditional and JR will be at a disadvantage from the start to get any "fair value" in return. I don't see it happening.

There you go with your logical thinking again. To the haters, Ward is responsible for every loss, the poor power play, global warming, Hurricane Katrina, the current wild fire in Big Sur, and anything else that they can think of.

While I am glad that Peters has magically become an NHL goalie after years of hanging around. I am not ready to anoint him as the next big thing just yet. We have seen Dobby for 2 games.

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I didn't vote because none of the choices fit for me.  While I don't see Ward as being untouchable, he's proven that he has the capability of being a legitimate #1 NHL goaltender.  I wouldn't trade Ward until we have more evidence that Kudo or Peters can fill that role over an extended period of time.  As a GM I'm looking at the big picture (the future as well as the immediate term).  I don't want to fall into the trap of being overly reactive, which is how I'd view moving Ward at this point in time.  As examples, we've had suggestions on these boards to dump Skinner, E, Muller, and Ruutu (I think he's coming around) when they hit a rough patch and actually did dump Jokinen.  Or Buffalo getting rid of Gerbe, Vancouver giving up on Malhotra, etc.

 

Obviously others will weigh/ interpret things differently and come to different conclusions.    

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Excerpt from an ESPN Insider article.  I'm posting it here for information, not to argue a particular position.  Make of it what you will; we've seen that the "experts" are often less than expert when it comes to a small market team like Carolina.

_________________________________________________________________________

Buyer beware in NHL trade market

Erat, Matthias and others may not be all that they are cracked up to be

Updated: December 17, 2013, 2:08 PM ET  By Timo Seppa | Hockey Prospectus

 

After the calendar flips to January, the NHL trade talk will begin to heat up. As a fan of a contender, it is exciting to dream about the shiny new toy your team may pick up, as we are in the holiday season. But as in free agency, "winning" the sweepstakes for a big-name player isn't a guarantee of a victory parade around the corner, and it frequently falls far short of that. 

 

Analytics can give us clues as to which potential trade targets may be successful, and which ones will be busts; or at the very least, which ones will deplete organizational resources and cap space without the team gaining much ground.

 

It doesn't take much effort to develop an eye for it. You want to look for players off to uncharacteristically hot starts. Is a player greatly surpassing his career shooting percentage? Are his linemates too hot to be believed? Has the goalie stopped nearly every puck while he is on the ice? And in the same vein, is a skater putting up a big plus/minus while his team is regularly outshot with him on the ice? One must also be mindful of a player's circumstances. Is he generally matched up against top-six forwards, or the opponent's fourth line? Is he deployed for more offensive or defensive zone draws? How is he doing at even strength alone?

 

The metrics that are commonly used to answer these questions are just the tip of the iceberg in comprehensively analyzing potential trade targets, but they can give a solid indication of deals that may go wrong, or can confirm or question scouting opinions.

 

With that in mind, let's look at eight potential trade targets -- some of them already in the rumor mill -- where we suggest the potential buyer beware:

 

Justin Peters, G, Carolina Hurricanes
Cap hit: $0.5 million
Issues: Not as good as he looks right now

Teams looking for an injury replacement -- like Columbus, hit by injuries to both Sergei Bobrovsky and Curtis McElhinney -- or perhaps trying to solidify their backup position down the road might look to Carolina's Peters, who has recorded a fine .929 save percentage over 17 games while filling in for Cam Ward. They might be further enticed by looking at his .931 save percentage in 2011-12, although that was recorded over just seven appearances. The issue is that despite a few hot stretches, Peters has been a well below-average NHL netminder, at only .905 save percentage over 64 career games. That also means that he was sub-.900 over the 40 games not in those hot streaks of 2011-12 and 2013-14. Furthermore, despite his pedigree as a second-round selection in 2004, Peters is only a middling .909-save percentage goaltender over 213 AHL contests. You can not only pass on Peters, but rest easy about the decision.

 

(also included in the list was Erik Cole)

Erik Cole, RW, Dallas Stars
Cap hit: $4.5 million (through 2014-15)
Issues: Age, which Cole will you get?

Cole's signing appeared to be a stroke of genius for the Canadiens in 2011-12, as the 33-year-old tallied a truly unexpected 35 goals and 61 points, exceeding and tying career marks, respectively. Yet after a disappointing start to the following season -- with unrealistically increased expectations playing a role in that disappointment -- the 2006 Stanley Cup winner was shipped off to Dallas, where he has managed a meager 19 points in 59 games. The obvious question is whether age alone has been the factor here. It's worrisome that Cole has been an inspired success in his first campaign with two new teams (0.88 points per game with Carolina in 2008-09, 0.74 with Montreal in 2011-12) and an out-and-out clunker with two others (0.43 with Edmonton in 2008-09, 0.25 with Dallas in 2012-13). The risks are significant, and any reward is likely dampened by the healthy cap hit.

Edited by LakeLivin

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I didn't vote because none of the choices fit for me.  While I don't see Ward as being untouchable, he's proven that he has the capability of being a legitimate #1 NHL goaltender.  I wouldn't trade Ward until we have more evidence that Kudo or Peters can fill that role over an extended period of time.  As a GM I'm looking at the big picture (the future as well as the immediate term).  I don't want to fall into the trap of being overly reactive, which is how I'd view moving Ward at this point in time.  As examples, we've had suggestions on these boards to dump Skinner, E, Muller, and Ruutu (I think he's coming around) when they hit a rough patch and actually did dump Jokinen.  Or Buffalo getting rid of Gerbe, Vancouver giving up on Malhotra, etc.

 

Obviously others will weigh/ interpret things differently and come to different conclusions.    

 

Changed it to trade in the next few weeks.

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Changed it to trade in the next few weeks.

Thanks Rem, but that still doesn't fit for me.  The issue isn't the exact timing, rather it's that I'd need to see a lot more from Peters or Kudo before dealing Ward (like over a good portion of a season, not just a couple of extra weeks).  Right now I think it would be too risky, but I don't want to answer "No" because the two "No" answers sound absolute, and I don't see Ward as untouchable.  My answer would be something like "No: not unless either Pete or Kudo proves himself over a much longer period of time".   

Edited by LakeLivin

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Thanks Rem, but that still doesn't fit for me.  The issue isn't the exact timing, rather it's that I'd need to see a lot more from Peters or Kudo before dealing Ward (like over a good portion of a season, not just a couple of extra weeks).  Right now I think it would be too risky, but I don't want to answer "No" because the two "No" answers sound absolute, and I don't see Ward as untouchable.  My answer would be something like "No: not unless either Pete or Kudo proves himself over a much longer period of time".   

 

So if a GM called with a fair offer right now, would you pull the trigger? Sounds like no?

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So if a GM called with a fair offer right now, would you pull the trigger? Sounds like no?

Yep, right now the answer is "no". I just don't want to appear as an absolutist; I'm not dead set against moving Ward, it's jut that right now I think it would be too big a risk to take.  

 

What I'd like to do is keep all 3 for as long as possible. We buy a couple of weeks if Lindholm plays in the junior tourney.  Then send Westgarth down to Charlotte, even though it means paying him full price since he's on a 1-way.  I see more value in keeping 3 goalies as insurance against injury for a while than keeping Westy as insurance against possibly needing a fighter in a game he just happens to be dressed for.   Then, if there are injuries to forwards, we can always bring up Boychuk or Terry without risking them to waivers, at least until they play 9 games at the NHL level this season. 

 

Edit: all of the above ignores bringing in additional pieces; I'm assuming if we do that we move some combination of existing players as part of the deal.

Edited by LakeLivin

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If Peters plays like this the remainder of the season and a fair offer trade comes in the offseason I think that would get people thinking. You've got a full season of proof Peters can do it, you've got a safety net of options while you're figuring it out and it's not like Cam's got top first line players being offered for him anyway. At least I wouldn't think so since Gauthier isn't the Canadiens GM anymore

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That write up on Peters is exactly why it is too early to hand him the crown.

 

I'm starting to think that the trades might come after the trade freeze.

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I would trade him in a heartbeat! That would at least clear a lot of room/money to get some more good players! Would really like a different outcome at the end of the regular season. (NOT BEING ABLE TO WATCH THE CANES IN THE PLAYOFFS, LIKE WE HAVEN"T OTHER THAN 1 SEASON SINCE WINNING THE CUP) Been thru many different d-men, 3 different head coaches, different goalie coaches, only 1 player left on the team since the Cup other than Cam! ( E Staal) How many other different backup goalies? So what is the common denominator for letting pucks in the net??  He Has only gotten his team to the playoffs 1 time as the #1 goalie!! So with all the other many changes why not trade him as see where we go. Can't be much worse than it has been since 06!

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If there was a proven player that could run the power play offer on the table. Id trade Cam.... for 6.5 million its awful risky to keep a player hoping he can play better.. Easier to hope a 800,000 / 500,000 player can get the job done.. May not be a fan favorite move but its a smart business move. I.M.O.  but Im stupid enough to think Maurice wasn't a bad coach, sub-par talent and still hovered around 500...

Edited by PamlicoPuck

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CBC.CA: Carolina Hurricanes GM Jim Rutherford denied Cam Ward could be the goaltender he moves. It’s believed Rutheford is trying to move Justin Peters or Anton Khudobin.

Let this die now please.

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CBC.CA: Carolina Hurricanes GM Jim Rutherford denied Cam Ward could be the goaltender he moves. It’s believed Rutheford is trying to move Justin Peters or Anton Khudobin.

Posting this here too. We can stop getting our hopes up (or down, depending on your stance on this). Cam doesn't appear to be going anywhere. Figured this would happen.

 

If true, I'm really about done with JR and the fact he isn't even keeping his options open. Our worst performing goalie is being saved while the two goalies that are making scraps for money and outplaying Ward in every aspect of goaltending  are the ones that the organization is willing to part with.

 

PLEASE NOTE BEFORE LABELING ME A "CAM HATER"  :rolleyes: : I'm not so much on my last straw with JR because he didn't move Ward. It's moreso the fact he isn't even going to think about considering it, when it could help this team as much as any other move would. If the return doesn't generate anything super serious, at least it sets him up with enough cap to get a legit top pairing defenseman (if he still wants one) and a third line center while resigning anyone of importance and still having a decent amount of free cap space to potentially sign a new starting caliber veteran goalie to help along Khudobin or Peters.

 

I guess what I saw in this situation was JR having the opportunity to right a wrong, the wrong being the ridiculous contract he gave Cam Ward. And instead of doing the work and trying to make it happen we're going to lose a goalie, most likely Peters, who gives us the best chance of winning every night this season. 

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Same old opinions, same old statements, same posters, on both sides of the argument.  Note I said "argument' since there just isn't any discussion to be had here.

 

This is getting rather boring.

Edited by coastal_caniac

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Here is something almost new. We signed Muse to an AHL contract. Of course the implication is we are very close to a trade. Close is an argumentative term since it could mean today, tomorrow or two weeks.

 

Muse Signs AHL Deal

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 guess what I saw in this situation was JR having the opportunity to right a wrong, the wrong being the ridiculous contract he gave Cam Ward. 

This is the best comment I've heard on here recently. I'm glad somebody said it. I'm not going to pretend like I know better than the professionals that are running this team, but Cam's contract is RIDICULOUS for his performance and the playing time we're getting out of him (or not getting). When that happens, from a business standpoint, I think you have to be able to correct it by getting value from another player to make up for it the best you can.

 

They are paying Cam better than Fleury and Lundqvist, about the same as Luongo, and only about $400k less than Quick. Those are marquee names, that have had their hiccups, but are consistently better for their teams than Cam. He IS NOT worth $6.6 million/year! To consider how much value $6.6 million is, and to put it into perspective, we could bring back Justin Williams and Brandon Sutter for $200k LESS than what we're paying Cam! Okay, I'm done. Thanks!

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Here is something almost new. We signed Muse to an AHL contract. Of course the implication is we are very close to a trade. Close is an argumentative term since it could mean today, tomorrow or two weeks.

 

Muse Signs AHL Deal

 

How does Muse signing an AHL contract equate to anything that's happening with the Canes?

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How does Muse signing an AHL contract equate to anything that's happening with the Canes?

 

Well with Peters not going back to the AHL we were left with 1 goalie on an AHL contract in Charlotte. Since Muse was on a tryout contract the thinking (according to others then me) is we wanted to make sure we signed Muse before making a move at the big club level.

 

* It isn't that Muse hasn't earned the contract because he has.

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Lol...I'm not sure how much it means. I suppose with JR telling Pete-dawg he wasn't going on waivers the thinking is we wanted two goalies signed behind our 1 and 2 goalies. If we hadn't signed Muse I'm sure we would have just gone out and found another AHL goalie. I think the indication from the writer was we were crossing T's and dotting i's before the move.

 

At least it is a new angle on the same discussion.

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Posting this here too. We can stop getting our hopes up (or down, depending on your stance on this). Cam doesn't appear to be going anywhere. Figured this would happen.

 

If true, I'm really about done with JR and the fact he isn't even keeping his options open. Our worst performing goalie is being saved while the two goalies that are making scraps for money and outplaying Ward in every aspect of goaltending  are the ones that the organization is willing to part with.

 

PLEASE NOTE BEFORE LABELING ME A "CAM HATER"  :rolleyes: : I'm not so much on my last straw with JR because he didn't move Ward. It's moreso the fact he isn't even going to think about considering it, when it could help this team as much as any other move would. If the return doesn't generate anything super serious, at least it sets him up with enough cap to get a legit top pairing defenseman (if he still wants one) and a third line center while resigning anyone of importance and still having a decent amount of free cap space to potentially sign a new starting caliber veteran goalie to help along Khudobin or Peters.

 

I guess what I saw in this situation was JR having the opportunity to right a wrong, the wrong being the ridiculous contract he gave Cam Ward. And instead of doing the work and trying to make it happen we're going to lose a goalie, most likely Peters, who gives us the best chance of winning every night this season. 

:thumbsup:

.......Cam's contract is RIDICULOUS for his performance and the playing time we're getting out of him (or not getting). When that happens, from a business standpoint, I think you have to be able to correct it by getting value from another player to make up for it the best you can.

 

They are paying Cam better than Fleury and Lundqvist, about the same as Luongo, and only about $400k less than Quick. Those are marquee names, that have had their hiccups, but are consistently better for their teams than Cam. He IS NOT worth $6.6 million/year! To consider how much value $6.6 million is, and to put it into perspective, we could bring back Justin Williams and Brandon Sutter for $200k LESS than what we're paying Cam! Okay, I'm done. Thanks!

:thumbsup:     

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I would trade him in a heartbeat! That would at least clear a lot of room/money to get some more good players! Would really like a different outcome at the end of the regular season. (NOT BEING ABLE TO WATCH THE CANES IN THE PLAYOFFS, LIKE WE HAVEN"T OTHER THAN 1 SEASON SINCE WINNING THE CUP) Been thru many different d-men, 3 different head coaches, different goalie coaches, only 1 player left on the team since the Cup other than Cam! ( E Staal) How many other different backup goalies? So what is the common denominator for letting pucks in the net??  He Has only gotten his team to the playoffs 1 time as the #1 goalie!! So with all the other many changes why not trade him as see where we go. Can't be much worse than it has been since 06!

:thumbsup:            

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