All inclusive goalie discussion

[PamlicoPuck]

Just as you want to discount Cam's GAA because of the shots and scoring chances he faces then you also need to discount the # of wins per season because he starts 10 - 20 more games than most starting goalies - winning % would be a better stat.

And let's be honest the only reason Cam was named an All Star is because the game was in Raleigh. In 6 years as a starter how many other All star games has he been selected to.

Ellis needs to get some time and I agree with your analysis of how to mix the two and reevaluate in 10 games or so.

We cannot blindly follow Cam just because he has always been #1 with no competition.

Cam is not "elite" but he is a top goalie in the next tier below elite status. I am a huge supporter of his but he is very overrated by many Canes fans.

I agree! The one thing that should Not happen, is to start your #1 Goalie based on performances of prior seasons. Look at the 49ers who moved out Alex Smith, now their in the Super Bowl. There are times when you have to select the best guy to help you win, over loyalty. Ellis was just plain awesome last night!!

[Greg-N-Ral]

Confidence is a big deal with goal keepers..... if you start Ellis you send a clear message to Cam that he isn't top dog anymore.

It is a nice luxury to have two steady goalies. Lets not muck it up with head games.

If all it takes to crush Cam's confidence is starting the RED HOT Ellis two games in a row, I'd rather know that now than later.

If that is all it takes to crush Cam's mindset, he's already on thin ice!

Lets face it, the main reason most of us love Cam is his 2006 playoff run! That happened because he was the HOT goalie and our #1, Gerber, yeilded way (recall Gerber was the guy that got us the #2 seed in 2006).

Now its time for Cam to yeild to a HOT talented goalie. No guarantees, but its worth seeing where Ellis can take us!

I also like Rem's 5-5 mix over the next ten, but give RED-HOT Ellis the nod Monday!

And Cam got the starts after Gerber got over the flu because.....? Hot handed goalie. Sometimes in sports a coach realized his career 500 goalie, who is known for his slow starts, may not be the way to go in a shortened season.

Plus ain't nobody go-in to argue with Ellis' 96% save pct!!!!

Edited January 26, 2013 by Greg-N-Ral

[hopper915]

What we should really take away from this is once Cam works his way into game shape/speed we have two solid netminders that are interchangeable. What we don't need is to bring back a newer version of Irbe vs. Weekes discussions on here.

[super_dave_1]

Isn't it great to know that we here are all so much better in touch with the situation than the coaching staff? As I've said before, nobody is more popular than the back up goalie or back up quarterback.

I'm right there with those that think Ellis has outplayed Ward, but the coaching staff has a whole season to figure out and a staff that looks at a lot more tape than we do. I really can see the reasoning in starting either guy on Monday.

[winger52]

Yes.. we should start Cam until he manages to get to Ellis' playing level. I was looking forward to another long, frustrating season. Remember Cams ego is more important.

Edited January 26, 2013 by winger52

[Greg-N-Ral]

Yes.. we should start Cam until he manages to get to Ellis' playing level.

Very well said wing man!!!

As of right now, Dan Ellis has the 2nd best SAVE % in the ENTIRE NHL.

Cam Ward? As of right now, he ranks #37 out of 38....yep, 2nd worst in the entire NHL.

Edited January 26, 2013 by Greg-N-Ral

[IdreamofStanley]

Very well said wing man!!!

As of right now, Dan Ellis has the 2nd best GAA in the ENTIRE NHL.

Cam Ward? As of right now, he ranks #37 out of 38....yep, 2nd worst in the entire NHL.

The numbers don't lie.

[super_dave_1]

I hope all you guys get a job soon on an NHL coaching staff.

Search this site for "Ward is average at best" and you'll come up with enough entertainment to last a lifetime.

[OBXer]

I'm not saying Ellis isn't playing better or that he won't end up # 1 goalie. What I'm saying is that it is to early in the game. Cam has been your number one. He played better his last game and he is now being pushed by Ellis. IMO you start Cam to find out just how he responds.

[remkin]

One of the most annoying parts of the whole Cam is average at best thing is that for a couple of year he was exactly that. But as he improved and became a truly elite goalie some loved to trot out the average at best line like Cam had always been elite. He has not been. In 2007 and last year he was decidedly BELOW average. In 08 and 09 he was a touch above average, and in 2010 he was elite.

The fact is Cam had a super hot playoff run that cannot be argued with. Amazing piece of Hurricane History.

Then he struggled the next year. Then he was slightly above average for a two years. Then he arrived elite. Then a very NON elite year last year.

The best stat for Cam is Save percentage given our relatively weak post cup teams, and terrible defensive play on balance.

Up until last year Cam had improved save % every year since the cup, but his first year post cup was WELL below average.

Also, one has to compare save % to the rest of the league that year as it varies from year to year.

2007: .904 #34 of goalies w/ 25 starts: #52 of all goalies.

2008: .916 #11 of goalies w/25 starts. Top of middle section. Better than average, but not elite.

2009: .916 #13 of goalies w/25 starts. See 2008.

2010: .923 #5 of goalies w/30 starts ELITE: Earned All Star Appearance.

2011: .915 #22, worse than 08 or 09.

The improvement through 2010, and his general praise from skilled observers, combined w/ injuries and last year being such a bad year all around, do suggest that the Cam of 2010, who was clearly elite, is the Cam we can most expect to emerge, and I am not in favor of dumping him over because Ellis had one good game at all. I still think Cam is the de facto starter and should be able to return to 2010 form. Further, Cam has had two deep playoff runs, so when that time comes we want him ready.

I still favor alternating, but if Cam returns to 2010 form (or even 09 or 10) he should be the starter w/ Ellis getting frequent back up starts. But if Cam is going to trot out 2011 form.....

To me 2011 is an outlier and the chances are great that the real Cam once he shakes the rust off will be closer to 2010, and at least a near elite goalie. I very much believe in Cam, but he has been average at best before.

Edited January 26, 2013 by remkin

[UNCCaniac8]

Very well said wing man!!!

As of right now, Dan Ellis has the 2nd best SAVE % in the ENTIRE NHL.

Cam Ward? As of right now, he ranks #37 out of 38....yep, 2nd worst in the entire NHL.

I believe that is based on, what, 3-4 games ? Ellis' save % based on ONE

game ? The coach likely takes the longer view than that when making goaltending

decisions , don't you think ?

The take-away is that we have 8 B/B's this season and we seem to have a credible

second goalie ! So that is all good !

[jb_online]

I believe that is based on, what, 3-4 games ? Ellis' save % based on ONE

game ? The coach likely takes the longer view than that when making goaltending

decisions , don't you think ?

The take-away is that we have 8 B/B's this season and we seem to have a credible

second goalie ! So that is all good !

This.

And as TSA I believe mentioned, Ellis has been playing in the AHL while Cam hasn't - Cam needs to get some ice time in before we throw him under the buss or banish him to the bench. Also, the defense was much better against Buffalo than against TB and FL (in which it was terrible). As the team progresses, so do the goalies. Ellis and Cam have the potential to be a one-two punch that makes an average team a cup contender - as long as they are used correctly. Instead of getting into an issue of having one play a lot and the other filling in, the staff should alternate between the two evenly for two reasons: keeping Ellis sharp and giving Wardo time to catch up. By the time playoffs are here, watch out.

But that was one amazing night for Ellis. I'm very excited about the potential of these two.

[stephenk24]

I wish I wasn't such a Wardo apologist.... That's all I will say. Ellis played so well, it was great, but bad at the same time, I like Cam too much.

[AWACSooner]

Hell no...trade them both for Luongo!

[winger52]

Yeah, Bobby Lu as a Hurricane!

[Carolinafan85]

Cam Ward: 4 Games played and started,1-3, 15 goals allowed,86% save percentage

I know people say its not his fault,and I agree that our D is terrible, but why is that our D was terrible in Buffalo to,they allowed 41 shots,but we still won 3-1, oh thats right,someome named Dan Ellis was in net!!!

I no longer trust Cam Ward to be our #1 goalie

[Greg-N-Ral]

Conclusion: TIme to give Dan Ellis those back-to-back starts!!

I for one want Ellis in goal Monday night against Boston.

Well, clearly I did not get my wish and once again rusty old Cam did us no favors in net last night!

Cam now ranks #39 out of 41 NHL goalies when ranking on SAVE%.

Dan Ellis remains #2 in the entire NHL on that metric!!

Thanks for nothing Kirk, way to not play the HOT GOALIE. Brilliant!!!!

[nhbeast]

Aaaand the Rangers should no longer trust Lundqvist (.905), the Penguins should bench Fleury (.890), the Wild should sit Backstrom (.887), the Ducks' Hiller (.868), and Phoenix should just flat-out cut Mike Smith (.836). Oh, and Pekke Rinne with a sparkling .899.

All this Cam Ward hate is just hilarious.

Cam now ranks #39 out of 41 NHL goalies when ranking on SAVE%.

Dan Ellis remains #2 in the entire NHL on that metric!!

Thanks for nothing Kirk, way to not play the HOT GOALIE. Brilliant!!!!

[Carolinafan85]

Aaaand the Rangers should no longer trust Lundqvist (.905), the Penguins should bench Fleury (.890), the Wild should sit Backstrom (.887), the Ducks' Hiller (.868), and Phoenix should just flat-out cut Mike Smith (.836). Oh, and Pekke Rinne with a sparkling .899.

All this Cam Ward hate is just hilarious.

Cam now ranks #39 out of 41 NHL goalies when ranking on SAVE%.

Dan Ellis remains #2 in the entire NHL on that metric!!

Thanks for nothing Kirk, way to not play the HOT GOALIE. Brilliant!!!!

Ward has allowed 15 goals in 3 games and 20 min of hockey, that is a GAA of 4.50!!!!

Lundqvist has alloed that many,but it took him 6 games

Fluery has only allowed 11 in 4 full games

Backstrom has only allowed 12 in 4 full games

Why dont all you Cam apoligists see that this is a 48 game season, we dont have time for Cam to shake off the rust, he should have risked playing in the minors,its his loss and Ellis's gain.

But all you Cam fanboys will probably get what you want, and "3 Goal Minimum" Ward will be in net,I just hope our offense learns to score 7 a game so we will have a chance at the playoffs!!!

[dinz]

This discussion is getting old, but cam is the man, ellis will be a fine backup, he had a great game, against buffalo, u cant throw Cam under the bus after a few games.. seriously, thats a panic move..

[colliefan]

will be interesting to see how much time Ellis gets in this killer of a road trip.

[TSA]

TTS: Season of adjustments for Ward

[Greg-N-Ral]

Aaaand the Rangers should no longer trust Lundqvist (.905), ........ and Pekke Rinne with a sparkling .899.

Based on their ENTIRE NHL Careers, ranking on Save%, Lundqvist ranks #2 and Pekka Rinne #1. Cam Ward ranks 19th!

So yes, Ranger and Predator fans can feel very confident with Lundqvist and Rinne in goal.

Ranking #19 for an entire career -- that should give any thinking fan some pause, regardless how much we loved Cam's 2006 rookie (ancient history?) playoff run.

CAREER STATS

1. Pekka Rinne .9205

2. Henrik Lundqvist .9198

3. Roberto Luongo .9193

4. Niklas Backstrom .9174

5. Jonas Hiller .9171

6. Tomas Vokoun .9168

7. Carey Price .9162

8. Jonathan Quick .9161

9. Ryan Miller .9149

10. Ilya Bryzgalov .9148

11. Kari Lehtonen .9143

12. Craig Anderson .9142

13. Miikka Kiprusoff .9133

14. Jean Giguere .9131

Martin Brodeur .9131

16. Evgeni Nabokov .9124

17. Chris Mason .9106

Martin Biron .9106

19. Cam Ward .9100

20. Jose Theodore .9094

21. Marc-Andre Fleury .9090

Ok so what about Cam's BEST RELATIVE REGULAR Save% SEASON EVER?

Well, that would be 2010-2011 when Wardo ranked 8th in the NHL.

Impressive? I'm not sure, but its hardly elite!

DAN ELLIS on the other hand, in his BEST season, ranked #1 and lead the entire NHL in 2007-2008!

So far, in 2013, with identical teams in front of them, Ward is at 86% (200mins), Dan Ellis 96% (100mins)!!!

Upshot?

Ellis has earned the right to start more over Cam (at least until Ward plays out of his slump, assuming he ever does). And if Ellis continues to be HOT, keep Cam in the backup role.

Bottom line - Ward runs HOT and COLD, and it takes him a long time to heat up!!! Inconsistency hurts!

[jb_online]

Aaaand the Rangers should no longer trust Lundqvist (.905), the Penguins should bench Fleury (.890), the Wild should sit Backstrom (.887), the Ducks' Hiller (.868), and Phoenix should just flat-out cut Mike Smith (.836). Oh, and Pekke Rinne with a sparkling .899.

All this Cam Ward hate is just hilarious.

Thanks for making that point. People just don't understand that goalies can't go from cold to mid-season form in four games. That's basically the point of playing in preseason - they get into game shape at no permanent cost. Well, Ward didn't have any preseason games to hone his skills and practice isn't going to replace game situations. It's disappointing, but what are you going to do?

The fact that Ward has been playing rusty hasn't escaped anyone, but to suggest that his role be reduced because the new guy (who has been playing in games for months) had one outstanding game is ridiculous. Some people just want to see Ward gone and this is the latest excuse for their argument.

If a QB has no decent receivers, how can he be expected to succeed? Well, if a goalie has no decent defense in front of him, how can he? I asked the question during the Boston game in the chat room, "How does Boston keep themselves fully stocked on such good goal tenders?" The answer is not that they do that but that they are committed to defense. So has Philadelphia, the Blues, Nashville, etc. We are NOT. We are seemingly committed to overpowering offense, considering almost all our defensemen for as long as I can remember are branded offensive-defensemen. We don't have a defensive-minded team and Ward gets left out-to-dry way too much. We can actually win the division that way, like Washington did a few years ago. But using Ward as a scape-goat when the issue is the system is just wrong.

You guys are excited about Dan Ellis. Sure, I get that... I am too, he looked great! But lets be realistic here, it was one full game. Muller will give Ward time to get in form and we'll be able to roll out two guys who can win any-given night.

'But JB, we don't have time for that'

We've got over 40 games, that's plenty of time.

[super_dave_1]

[/size]

Based on their ENTIRE NHL Careers, ranking on Save%, Lundqvist ranks #2 and Pekka Rinne #1. Cam Ward ranks 19th!

So yes, Ranger and Predator fans can feel very confident with Lundqvist and Rinne in goal.

Ranking #19 for an entire career -- that should give any thinking fan some pause, regardless how much we loved Cam's 2006 rookie (ancient history?) playoff run.

You easily overlook the fact that Ward consistently is in the top 3 or 4 in the league in shots against. Several here say it's all Ward and those of us that talk about the defense (or lack thereof) are seeing things through rose colored glasses. I just don't see how the lack of quality defense, leading to a barrage of rubber, leading to the red lamp can can all be Ward's fault.

Cam Ward has not been at his best so far, but with no pre-season, it's to be expected (at least to me). Ellis has been sharp in one start and it one game of relief. Ward is not going to get that edge if he's sitting on the bench opening the door. Muller needs Cam to be sharp if this team is going to go anywhere.