Jump to content
The Official Site of the Carolina Hurricanes
Sign in to follow this  
Greg-N-Ral

All inclusive goalie discussion

Recommended Posts

Sure, but we certainly can sign K-man now so that would not be the case.  

Ditto Peters.

And having an extra $3-$4 mill/year in cap space will make this team better.

If you cant get it, then all I can say is good luck "hoping and believing in Cam..."   "maybe some day he'll become elite (top-5)..."

Facebook? LOL...  me...never use it...   

 

 

Yes, we could extend Khoubin or Peters right now.

 

Save your BS for Maniscalco, he has to listen.

Edited by coastal_caniac

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BS = truth...   

Gottcha Edenton... you little rascal you!

Cam is worth 6.5 mill and his sub 91%save %... gottcha  :facepalm2:

"we believe and hope in Cam..."  he's going to become an elite (top-5) NHL goalie some day..."

Edited by Greg-N-Ral

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah Greg-N-Ral, your usual tactic - turn around what somebody says to make your point and then go hide.

 

I said it would be idiocy to trade Cam right now, as you suggested, and be left with two UFA goalies.

 

So, until one or the other is extended, I don't see us trading Cam right now, at this very minute.

 

And yeah, even though I said nothing of the sort, I do believe Cam Ward is capable of more than he's showing at the present time. And if that labels me as something, well, whatever.

 

I have no idea what the injury is, or to what extent it is, or has been affecting his play.  Nobody here does.  But moving your franchise goalie in the middle of a season, for "a bag of pucks", no less,  just doesn't scream wise management, and I doubt very seriously Jim Rutherford is going to do that.

Edited by coastal_caniac

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, so lets bottom line these last 11-12 posts...  


WHAT WE BASICALLY AGREE ON
1) We all hope Cam some day can turn things around (while in a Canes uniform) and actually become an elite top-5 NHL goalie.
2) We all seem to agree no sane NHL GM would be willing to trade for Cam (regardless how much/little they'd have to give up)
3) Back in 2006 Cam did get red hot in the playoffs and made great Canes history helping us win the Cup


WHAT WE DON'T ARGEE ON
1) If somehow we could/would trade Cam, what the Canes would need back to pull the trigger
2) 2006 - sports history or still very relevant to winning in 2014?
Some think performance in 2006 projects well moving forward, others don't. 



 

Edited by Greg-N-Ral

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, so lets bottom line these last 11-12 posts...  

WHAT WE BASICALLY AGREE ON

1) We all hope Cam some day can turn things around (while in a Canes uniform) and actually become an elite top-5 NHL goalie.

2) We all seem to agree no sane NHL GM would be willing to trade for Cam (regardless how much/little they'd have to give up)

3) Back in 2006 Cam did get red hot in the playoffs and made great Canes history helping us win the Cup

WHAT WE DON'T ARGEE ON

1) If somehow we could/would trade Cam, what the Canes would need back to pull the trigger

2) 2006 - sports history or still very relevant to winning in 2014?

Some think performance in 2006 projects well moving forward, others don't. 

 

Actually Greg-N-Ral, it's only about 2006 (for me, at least) in terms of Stanley Cup playoff experience - which is the whole point of playing the games, last time I checked. I think it is really unfair and more than a little self-serving on your part to continue ignoring the point I and others have made here repeatedly, that since then, Cam has had almost zero help in terms of offense, defense, or a backup since the Cup win - until this year.

 

I wrote about it at the beginning of the 2006-07 campaign and numerous times since: There is no tougher transition in sports, anywhere, than a goalie converting from backup to number one. In a space of six weeks in 2006, Cam went from nearly never playing to starting every game. It was easy for him to get up for every game when it happened since (1) the 'Canes were playing to secure home ice throughout the playoffs, (2) we had actual, true-to-life, NHL-caliber forwards and D, and (3) once the regular season ended, Cam was starting playoff games. He's been starting nearly every game ever since, largely because we've had no reliable backup - and though he's played nothing short of great this year, I include Justin Peters in that group of less-than-reliable backups.

 

So - stay with me - over 7 seasons it's been all Cam nearly all the time with nearly zero offensive support (thank you, Paul Maurice, for all those one-goal losses…) and only this year do we (seem) to have (finally, successfully) addressed both the offense and D situations, although we've still work to do on the PP. Through all that time, Cam has carried the load in net, never complaining about the lack of goal support or effective D - he's just skated out there and done the best he could with what he had to work with. Meanwhile, his workload broke his body down - and now you're saying, "Let's throw away the millions we've invested, let's not repay his loyalty with some of our own. No, now that we finally have a resilient D and an offense that is starting to gel, let's chastise and then get a bag of pucks for the guy who pretty much singlehandedly kept us in all those close games under Mo, who's been waiting patiently for JR to do his job and put a contender together, and who knows what it takes to win a Stanley Cup."

 

Yeah. GREAT idea.  

Edited by top-shelf-1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One post said that Cam averaged about 70 games per season prior to last year and this injury filled season. If we have goalies that can play well at a much lower cost, it would make economic sense to look at trades. With Cam's injuries, and past workload, we might be stuck with a worn out goalie with a big salary. I have met Cam, and I think very highly of him. I would love to see him come back from this injury, play the way he is capable of playing, and put all the "trade Cam" discussion to rest.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One post said that Cam averaged about 70 games per season prior to last year and this injury filled season. If we have goalies that can play well at a much lower cost, it would make economic sense to look at trades. 

Trouble is, we don't. Neither Khudo nor Peters has a body of work even close to Cam, let alone at the NHL level. Which is the whole point: We'd literally be trading a bird in the hand for two in the bush.

Edited by top-shelf-1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why do people keep saying we need Cam for the playoffs? He had no playoff experience in '06...so...

I mean, I understand the advantage of playoff experienced players but, how's that worked out since then?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

People are tired of the goaltending debate on here but it really is a big issue.  

 

When Cam came back from his last injury he essentially was a back up to Peters.  Peters had more starts when Cam was healthy again.  That says a lot.  

 

If Cam comes back now, do you think he will get more starts than Khodobin?  Probably not.  Only if Khodobin starts having problems.  That and if Cam comes in he essentially has to plays amazing because Peters is still with the team and can go in.  Not a great spot for a 6 million dollar man.  

 

This scenario cannot play out well.  I see things changing fast.  Someone is going to go.  Not sure what for but there will be a change.  That or the Canes will keep their fingers crossed and put Peters down to AHL and hope he doesn't get snatched up.

 

Guess we can wait and see but I am willing to put it out on the line that after the trade deadline we will NOT have 3 goalies up with the Canes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Trouble is, we don't. Neither Khudo nor Peters has a body of work even close to Cam, let alone at the NHL level. Which is the whole point: We'd literally be trading a bird in the hand for two in the bush.

 

We have 7 seasons to judge Cam's numbers..... I would still take a chance on the other two.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

.... over 7 seasons it's been all Cam nearly all the time with nearly zero offensive support (thank you, Paul Maurice, for all those one-goal losses…) and only this year do we (seem) to have (finally, successfully) addressed both the offense and D situations, although we've still work to do on the PP. Through all that time, Cam has carried the load in net, never complaining about the lack of goal support or effective D - he's just skated out there and done the best he could with what he had to work with. Meanwhile, his workload broke his body down - and now you're saying, "Let's throw away the millions we've invested, let's not repay his loyalty with some of our own. No, now that we finally have a resilient D and an offense that is starting to gel, let's chastise and then get a bag of pucks for the guy who pretty much singlehandedly kept us in all those close games under Mo, who's been waiting patiently for JR to do his job and put a contender together, and who knows what it takes to win a Stanley Cup."

 Above truly is the most ridiculous post I've ever read here!

We the fans, the full season ticket holders, paying THOUSANDS of dollars each year, need to repay Cam for his loyalty and all he has done for us, while he's made $35-million dollars over the last seven years!!!  

Yet again, despite the Canes now being in 12th place out of 15 in the East this year, its okay that Cam eats up $6.5 million in cap space,,, ...  the main thing is we owe  Cam and him being paid over $35-million is not even close to fair for what he has had to endure while living and playing here in Raleigh.   

  

 

Edited by Greg-N-Ral

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well Greg,  i am frustrated  with team over all, and  we go  every  couple  years, so i can see if you are a STH, it is your hard earned money,  well, some nights  going to waste... The Canes are at a crossroads...  Huge Sentiment from 2006  from JR shouldnt be in  play now, hey, Cammer put hockey on the map for good in NC, , with that great run in 2006, but its been 7 years, and its either the groin and back lately... If healthy now, i believe he would be on the Oilers team.... So what JR  and  Mctavish do...   So  Oilers  say. i would love Cam, but  he cant seem to stay on the ice...  JR says, well IF  he stays on the ice,  he makes you a playoff team next year, you have great young talent.. and the dance goes on..and on...  SO,,, Ruutu, Bowman, or Nash, isnt going to get you squat, sorry , so whats plan  C??

Edited by dinz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 Above is truly is the most ridiculous post I've ever read here!

We the fans, the full season ticket holders, paying THOUSANDS of dollars each year, need to repay Cam for his loyalty and all he has done for us, while he's made $35-million dollars over the last seven years!!!  

Yet again, despite the Canes now being in 12th place out of 15 in the East this year, its okay that Cam eats up $6.5 million in cap space,,, ...  the main thing is we owe  Cam and him being paid over $35-million is not even close to fair for what he has had to endure while living and playing here in Raleigh.   

  On the flip side,  Not  Cams  fault he gets   hurt, and  that he got that    contract.... I think he agrees to go to  Edmonton or another   WEST                team.. if hes is healthy... I wish  Cam the best, either here, or elsewhere...

  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually Greg-N-Ral, it's only about 2006 (for me, at least) in terms of Stanley Cup playoff experience - which is the whole point of playing the games, last time I checked. I think it is really unfair and more than a little self-serving on your part to continue ignoring the point I and others have made here repeatedly, that since then, Cam has had almost zero help in terms of offense, defense, or a backup since the Cup win - until this year.

 

I wrote about it at the beginning of the 2006-07 campaign and numerous times since: There is no tougher transition in sports, anywhere, than a goalie converting from backup to number one. In a space of six weeks in 2006, Cam went from nearly never playing to starting every game. It was easy for him to get up for every game when it happened since (1) the 'Canes were playing to secure home ice throughout the playoffs, (2) we had actual, true-to-life, NHL-caliber forwards and D, and (3) once the regular season ended, Cam was starting playoff games. He's been starting nearly every game ever since, largely because we've had no reliable backup - and though he's played nothing short of great this year, I include Justin Peters in that group of less-than-reliable backups.

 

So - stay with me - over 7 seasons it's been all Cam nearly all the time with nearly zero offensive support (thank you, Paul Maurice, for all those one-goal losses…) and only this year do we (seem) to have (finally, successfully) addressed both the offense and D situations, although we've still work to do on the PP. Through all that time, Cam has carried the load in net, never complaining about the lack of goal support or effective D - he's just skated out there and done the best he could with what he had to work with. Meanwhile, his workload broke his body down - and now you're saying, "Let's throw away the millions we've invested, let's not repay his loyalty with some of our own. No, now that we finally have a resilient D and an offense that is starting to gel, let's chastise and then get a bag of pucks for the guy who pretty much singlehandedly kept us in all those close games under Mo, who's been waiting patiently for JR to do his job and put a contender together, and who knows what it takes to win a Stanley Cup."

 

Yeah. GREAT idea.  

 

Quoted

For

Truth

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would suspect that someone would grab him if we did send him down.  I would like to see the Hurricanes get something for him, but I seriously doubt it would be much (but something is always better than nothing, right).  A lot of folks around here jumped on the bandwagon when we had a spectacular string of games... but he's the same player we've seen for years who gives up tons of rebounds.  The new defense made him look better, plus I'm sure he was playing for his future contract (here or otherwise).  It would be best for everyone if he found a new home.  I know he has a fantastic reputation with his charity work and great attitude in the locker room, so that should help with his future franchise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't fault Peters fully for the goals against tonight. We had major defensive breakdowns that lead to those chances. However, if you're the guy, you've got to be able to bail your team out for a mistake some of the time. Khudobin has shown the ability to make the important saves in his limited time here. Cam Ward has also shown that ability. That's why those 2 are NHL caliber goaltenders. 

 

Peters has shown flashes of it, but his usually come on the "predictable" plays. The cross ice one-timers, etc. He's pretty good at making that first save. He's also got a pretty good glove. When things start to breakdown or there's a loose puck, he's usually not able to bail the team out. 

 

That to me is the major difference between Khudobin/Ward and Peters. When Peters went on his run, we really didn't allow a lot of those loose pucks or breakdowns. He made the first save and the defense cleaned up the rebounds. 

 

I think it's pretty clear that if you're JR, you try to keep Ward/Khudobin for next year and let them battle for the number 1 job. If Ward really is so worn down that he can't get back to form and be 100%, then you make the big move. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agree 100% with the previous post. Tonight: Khudobin 3, TB 2. On 7 shots, TB 3, Peters 0. This is who Justin Peters is and has always been. He has had some good, even great games. But I have zero confidence that he can make a couple of phenominal saves to keep the team in a must win game, and he did not do that tonight. We might could now package Peters as a depth goalie in a trade, but I think his value in a trade straight up is nil. I wish we could get him back to Charlotte b/c he is a good depth goalie for the Canes as well, but at his salary, I agree that he probably would not clear waivers. I would like us to get Cam healthy and try to use Peters' salary to help sign Khudobin for a year or two more, and I think healthy competition between the two would bring out the best in both. If Khudobin believes he will get a fair shot at starting or playing significant games, and the money is fair, I see no reason he would not return to the Canes. As far as Cam goes, he has proven he can make spectacular saves that have kept us in games, and no reason to think he cannot get healthy and do it again. And stop hating on Cam b/c of what he makes. No one put a gun to JR's head and made him offer that contract, same as with Jordan Staal. In hindsight the contracts may look too high, but we will always have to pay a premium to keep our best players in Raleigh instead of going to a large market team that always spends to the limit and buries their mistakes in the AHL.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The truth is simple:

 

We've seen teams lead by Cam Ward playing 70 games, and now we've seen good stretches of 2 seasons lead by other goaltenders with Ward's injuries. What's different about the state of the team in the standings? Absolutely nothing.

 

What raises you in the standings? Winning games...

 

Let's look at the top 2 goaltenders in terms of wins this season.

 

Fleury  

  • 27 wins
  • 2.26 GAA
  • .917 SV%

Niemi

  • 25 wins
  • 2.39 GAA
  • .913 SV%

Those stats that everyone loves to quote aren't really impressive as far as the members of this board are concerned. Ward gets eaten alive with those kind of numbers quite often. He's posted a "mediocre" .916 in 08-09, .916 in 09-10, .923 in 10-11, .915 in 11-12.

 

What's important here? Those teams are winning and playoff bound. 

 

In 2010-2011, Ward started 74 games. In those 74 games, he saw the most shots in the league and he posted a .923 and 2.56 GAA. We didn't make the playoffs. Peters posted a .929 for a stretch of like 20 games and he was God. Ward gave us a .923 for nearly a full seasons worth of games in front of one of the worst defenses in the league and he's the problem. Yes, we can all agree he's not the same now, and I'm with you all he needs to get healthy and get better in net. He's struggled recently, no one's denying that fact.

 

Proving Ward was good at one time is not the point of this post. Proving that a goaltender is only a piece of the puzzle is. Ward has played good enough for us to win and make the playoffs, and we didn't. He's played poorly and we've had other goaltenders that have played well, and we didn't make the playoffs.

 

Until the team as a whole achieves consistency, it doesn't matter who our goaltender is, we won't make the playoffs without winning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The cold hard facts for our goalies this season...
 

n=19   Ward         GAA = 3.15    SAVE% = 89.5     WIN%=33%       CAP SPACE = $6,500,000
n=11   Khudobin  GAA = 2.06    SAVE% = 93.4     WIN%=70%         CAP SPACE =   $800,000
n=21   Peters       GAA = 2.50    SAVE% = 91.9     WIN%=35%         CAP SPACE =   $500,000

Ranking on the two key goalie metrics yields...

GAA
#1 Khudobin
#2 Peters
#3 Ward
 
SAVE%
Khudobin
Peters
Ward

Cap space, we'll that's self evident!

I'm not going to throw Peters under the bus so quickly, esp. given what he's done for us this year and at the price. The facts show he remains a value compared to Ward-0.

League-wide Cam is the 4th highest paid goalie in the NHL, yet he owns the 65th best Save%.

Cam must go!!

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The one thing that might keep Pete from getting picked up on waivers is that he's on a 1-way contract.  If a team doesn't see him sticking they aren't going to want to pay him over half a million to play in the AHL.  On the other hand, $538k is cheap if he is seem as a viable NHL goalie, even as a back up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The one thing that might keep Pete from getting picked up on waivers is that he's on a 1-way contract.  If a team doesn't see him sticking they aren't going to want to pay him over half a million to play in the AHL.  On the other hand, $538k is cheap if he is seem as a viable NHL goalie, even as a back up.

Agree!!  Having the 17th best save % in the NHL for $500k spells VALUE!!  

Esp when he's been able to do that playing in front of the 23rd rank team in the NHL.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The one thing that might keep Pete from getting picked up on waivers is that he's on a 1-way contract.  If a team doesn't see him sticking they aren't going to want to pay him over half a million to play in the AHL.  On the other hand, $538k is cheap if he is seem as a viable NHL goalie, even as a back up.

 

If I'm JR, I try to lock up Khudobin for a reasonable price increase and 1 or 2 years and let Peters land where he lands. Try to get something in return for him if we can, otherwise take our chances on waivers and then resign him to a 2 way next year or let him test free agency.

 

Khudobin wants to be a number 1 in this league and he's shown enough for me to believe he can be at some point, but I need to see a more than 10 games. If I'm JR, I convince him to take a reasonable, short term contract and tell him he has the opportunity to be the guy here. Give him and Ward a fair chance next year, divide up the workload when it makes sense and obviously use the hotter of the two goalies when you have a big game or stretch of games that you need to win (aka every game for the Canes).

 

If Ward returns to form and re-establishes his status on the team, Khudobin's short contract won't have him trapped in a backup role if he doesn't belong there. He can either test free agency (if it's a 1 year deal), or if it's a multi-year deal, we can get a good return on him if he wants to be traded or if a trade makes sense.

 

If Khudobin establishes himself as the guy, then Ward only has 1 year left on his contract and it would be easier to trade him. The cap will have gone up and 1 year wouldn't be as risky for another team. 

 

Maybe they both play well and somehow we keep them both and have a ridiculous goalie tandem. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agree!!  Having the 17th best save % in the NHL for $500k spells VALUE!!  

Esp when he's been able to do that playing in front of the 23rd rank team in the NHL.

Glad we're in agreement :thumbsup2: . Now all we need to do is find a team that is willing to ignore the majority of Pete's career in order to focus on one recent 13 game run, and who doesn't care how a player is trending (81% save percentage & 4.87 GAA over his last 3 games), and we should easily be able to get our quality 3rd line center (or at least a 2nd round draft pick) in exchange.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...