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Greg-N-Ral

All inclusive goalie discussion

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If up to me Ward gets one more chance friday night, If he's not stellar than I want to see Ellis play 3 or 4 in a row. Ellis is relaxed and confident, Ward is not. We can't afford to stack up losses waiting for Ward to "come around", he has been absolutely horrible. Soft goals, juicy rebounds, and obviously just tense and inconfident. don't tell me that the "screen" in front of him was great. He should be able to see around it and not allow a soft wrist shot to go by without ever seeing it. A confident goalie is always seeing around traffic. Cmon Wardo, find that confidence and relax and have fun out there!

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Dan Ellis has never started more the 37 games in a season, so lets relax a bit on that "RANKED #1" stuff.

In addition... you do realize the difference in a .10 % point, right?

By your logic, Brodeur must really suck because his career save % is only .9131... a whole .031 better than Ward. (That's 1 goal for every 32 shots faced, fyi). With a helluva much better D in front of him most of those years.

Also by your logic, based on the early season so far, Chris Mason should be handed the starter's job in Nashville, based on his 1 game w/ .967 save % (vs, .899 for Rinne) Marty Biron should start over Lundqvist (.950 to .905).. I could go on....

And just to show how much save % really means, look at your top 4. Exactly how many cups have they won again? Oh that's right.... none. Meanwhile Fleury (who's below Ward, btw) has. But i guess he sucks too.

Listen, I LIKE Dan Ellis. This team needs a guy like him to step in and get the job done when called upon.

But he's just not being handed the starting job for this team, nor should he at this point.

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'But JB, we don't have time for that'

We've got over 40 games, that's plenty of time.

we dont have 40 games,unless you dont care about making the playoffs this season,and its alright for us to keep taking losses while Cam tries to get better

tell me JB, if we are being rash panicky,how many games should we give ward to get better ?, 10 games,20 games, or how about when we are officially eliminated from the playoffs and it wont matter anymore!!!!

you are a Panthers fan JB, Jake Delhomme led us to the Superbowl,didnt stop Panthers fans from booing him off the field in 09,my point is if a player doesnt have it anymore,than they should be replaced,no matter there past acomplishments, I just hope Muller doesnt do like Fox did and keep wasting seasons in order to keep from hurting anyones feelings,except the fans!!!

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So it must be that Cam is the only player that is allowed to be rusty,

The D-men are supposed to be at the top of their game now---BUT NOT CAM!!

The powerplay players are supposed to be at the top of their game now---BUT NOT CAM!!!

The forwards and centers are supposed to be on top of their game in all 3 zones now---BUT NOT CAM!!! (IN HIS LITTLE BLUE PAINTED ICE AREA)

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There are two separate questions to this argument.

1. Is Cam Ward the number one goalie, or does Cam suck?

2. Is Ellis as good or better right now at this exact moment in time, when wins are on the line?

How good Cam is overall is a reasonable debate. But this year's start has almost no place in that discussion. To those using Cam's stats from what are in many ways preseaon games. There is one simple undeniable fact. The stats are utterly meaningless in this time frame because we know that Cam isn't that bad. There is zero chance of it. Letting in all those goals the first game skews the stats to unreasonableness. Any reasonable person knows that Cam's current stats do not reflect what we can expect moving forward. Further, he has played better overall as he's gotten more time in net.

As to his career and what to expect if he gets his game together:

To me, last year was the outlier, but did open the door to the debate on how good Cam is. Before that, Cam had clearly improved every year in save %, peaking two years ago w/ a very good percentage. We would not be having this discussion if Cam were coming off 2010-11. Having watched some hockey over that time, it is pretty obvious that Cam not only faced more shots over those years, but more point blank scoring chances than most goalies. Yet he ranked as high as #5 in the league in save % for goalies w/ at least 50 starts.The only goalies ahead of him that year w/ more than 50 starts: Tim Thomas, Pekke Rinne, R. Luongo, Cary Price. So, whether you want to call that elite or not, is a judgement call. To me, seeing all the odd man rushes, and point blank rubber, I'd say yes, but even if no, that is at the VERY LEAST a top 10 goalie no matter how you slice it.

Now the fact is, he slipped back last year, so fine. But until then he had improved every single year up to 2010-11. That to me suggests that last year was the outlier. If you don't agree, fine. I'm not trying to cut you down.

The other question though, is this. If you agree that Cam is the man, (which I do), but is not yet on his game fully, how do you handle that, when for the first time ever you have a seriously viable back up? You need to get your man back on his game, but you also need to play the hot hand and get wins. My solution is a defined period of alternating starts. Cam Ottatwa, Ellis, Philly, Cam NYI, Ellis, NJ, Cam TOR, Ellis MTL Came WPG, Ellis TB. After that you take a cold look at the play and stats, but with a very strong bias to Cam. If Ellis is clearly superior, he become the #1, o/w Cam is, and we drop back to more of a 3:1 ratio.That's my plan anyway.

Edited by remkin

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How good Cam is overall is a reasonable debate. But this year's start has almost no place in that discussion. To those using Cam's stats from what are in many ways preseaon games. There is one simple undeniable fact. The stats are utterly meaningless in this time frame because we know that Cam isn't that bad. There is zero chance of it. Letting in all those goals the first game skews the stats to unreasonableness. Any reasonable person knows that Cam's current stats do not reflect what we can expect moving forward. Further, he has played better overall as he's gotten more time in net.

Careful rem, you are trying to reason with the unreasonable. Funny how Wards detractors get all defensive when you don't agree with them. Cam is personally responsible for every goal against since he is getting paid to keep the pucks in front of him and any other opinion is just blind worship.

Ellis brings a great asset to this team in being a veteran backup goalie that can step in and win. In recent memory, the only player to do that was Manny Legace (and I wasn't happy when JR didn't keep him around). All the Leightons, Peters, and Grahams have been utter disasters and resulted in Ward playing all the time. I hope to see a more league normal usage of the backup this year.

If this issue is still the same after 10 or so games, then yeah, it is a problem. I know it's a short season, but this still has to work itself out.

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. After that you take a cold look at the play and stats, but with a very strong bias to Cam. .

why should the coach show bias to Cam if Ellis is outplaying him ?, I show bias to the Hurricanes,I am a fan of the Hurricanes,not a certain player.

and these are not pre-season games, they actually count, did Chicago and San Jose treat them like pre-season games ?, What about Tampa Bay,do they consider there 6 point lead in the division meaningless, and we only have 43 games to catch up with them,or the 8th spot. And we cant do that by throwing away points in order for our "#1" goalie to get his act together.

It really isnt worth saying anything more,becuase the Cam fans have there mind made up,and in there eyes there has never been a goal that was Cams fault,we will see how he plays in his next start,although I am sure if he plays bad again,it will still not be his fault,and we should still give him more time.

I hope Cam plays like he should,and shuts everyone including me up,that would be great. But at this point I dont have much confidence that will happen.

Edited by Carolinafan85

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I am thinking that more of the fan base has hit the wall waiting for the 6 million dollar man to show up. I expected more for the money. One playoff run, below .500 is not cutting it. To listen to the after the game show on the radio has become an exercise in tired, worn out excuses. Cam wishes he had that one back,( that one applies to every goalie after every goal). The defense wasn't in the game tonight. The offense didn't do their job and score enough goals. Cam will tell the coaches when he needs a rest. You need to keep playing Cam till he get his head back into the game. Cam faces more shots than every other goalie ( on average a little over 1 shot per game than the other leaders).

The unfortunate part of this myth of and elite goalie is that the offense has completely changed and still can't score enough goals to allow Cam to work through the rust. And why woould anyone want to play defense here, if we win you are ignored, lose and the fingers point your way. Basically it's great to be the #1 Hurricanes goalie, little if any criticism, and a big paycheck. My boss does not allow my a " Rust Recovery Period " and I make somewhat less than 6 million a year.

Cam's a big boy now, if he can't take the heat maybe it's time to take the money and run. Will he be worth 6 million on the next contract?

Edited by winger52

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Good banter about Cam/Ellis, or Ellis/Cam. Doesn't matter what we say, but what does coach say/think? At last Sunday's "cookout" during Q&A he said something to the effect that whomever is playing better will get their minutes. I'm paraphrasing, but it is essentially what he said.

I took that as he sees what we're all seeing, and Ellis will get his shot with further upside if things continue as they've been so far.

I'm a Cam fan, but last season wasn't good and the slow start hasn't helped. My interpretation of coach's word is Cam's status as starter with heavy minutes is not a given. Coach hasn't been shy about making changes so I'm trusting in him.

Edited by Manwolf

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My boss does not allow my a " Rust Recovery Period " and I make somewhat less than 6 million a year.

I think that anybody that compares their employment situation to a professional athlete is barking up the wrong tree. I'll bet you also don't have bunch of morons on a message board deciding your fate when they have no actual input in the situation.

The sample size is still too small to throw anybody under the bus (except for Corvo).

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we dont have 40 games,unless you dont care about making the playoffs this season,and its alright for us to keep taking losses while Cam tries to get better

tell me JB, if we are being rash panicky,how many games should we give ward to get better ?, 10 games,20 games, or how about when we are officially eliminated from the playoffs and it wont matter anymore!!!!

you are a Panthers fan JB, Jake Delhomme led us to the Superbowl,didnt stop Panthers fans from booing him off the field in 09,my point is if a player doesnt have it anymore,than they should be replaced,no matter there past acomplishments, I just hope Muller doesnt do like Fox did and keep wasting seasons in order to keep from hurting anyones feelings,except the fans!!!

I never said to give Ward 10-20 games to get in shape, I said don't throw him under the bus because Ellis had ONE really good start. Ward will not need 10-20 games before we know what he's going to look like. You make the assumption that I only want to see Ward in the crease when that's not the case - I'm saying allow him to get the ice time he needs to compliment Ellis and the team so we can have TWO goalies playing to the best of their abilities. That does not mean I want to see Ward in back-to-back games. I do NOT want Ward to be relied upon as much as he has in the past. I pray Muller learned from Mo and Lavi's mistake of working Ward too much. If not, and Ward is playing a similar ratio of starts this season I'll grab my torch and pitchfork and storm PNC Arena with you. I fully support Remkin's post about alternating the two equally. That is the ideal way of handling two outstanding goalies.

I was irate when Hurney cut Delhomme. I supported him after the Arizona game just like I supported Kasay after Super Bowl 38. It would have been nice to win a couple more games instead of starting a bunch of clowns behind center for three years.

So it must be that Cam is the only player that is allowed to be rusty,

The D-men are supposed to be at the top of their game now---BUT NOT CAM!!

The powerplay players are supposed to be at the top of their game now---BUT NOT CAM!!!

The forwards and centers are supposed to be on top of their game in all 3 zones now---BUT NOT CAM!!! (IN HIS LITTLE BLUE PAINTED ICE AREA)

Players who played in the AHL or over seas have no excuse to be rusty. They have an excuse to not have the desired chemistry, though. Like a cold goalie, it takes a little time to correct that. People, the Canes are going to get better, I promise.

I am thinking that more of the fan base has hit the wall waiting for the 6 million dollar man to show up. I expected more for the money. One playoff run, below .500 is not cutting it. To listen to the after the game show on the radio has become an exercise in tired, worn out excuses. Cam wishes he had that one back,( that one applies to every goalie after every goal). The defense wasn't in the game tonight. The offense didn't do their job and score enough goals. Cam will tell the coaches when he needs a rest. You need to keep playing Cam till he get his head back into the game. Cam faces more shots than every other goalie ( on average a little over 1 shot per game than the other leaders).

The unfortunate part of this myth of and elite goalie is that the offense has completely changed and still can't score enough goals to allow Cam to work through the rust. And why woould anyone want to play defense here, if we win you are ignored, lose and the fingers point your way. Basically it's great to be the #1 Hurricanes goalie, little if any criticism, and a big paycheck. My boss does not allow my a " Rust Recovery Period " and I make somewhat less than 6 million a year.

Cam's a big boy now, if he can't take the heat maybe it's time to take the money and run. Will he be worth 6 million on the next contract?

My opinion on everything we are debating in this thread is based on the position, not necessarily the man. You can interchange the name CAM WARD with any other under performing goalie in the league. That's my point, don't count these guys out because they are still getting into shape (the ones who haven't played until now). Once they are where they would normally be (post preseason) after a handful of games, then you can re-evaluate who needs more TOI.

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CarolinaFan85 wrote:

why should the coach show bias to Cam if Ellis is outplaying him ?, I show bias to the Hurricanes,I am a fan of the Hurricanes,not a certain player.

It is not about being a fan of Cam. It is about generally playing your franchise goalie if he is playing at least even with the guy who has been a journeyman and started the season in the AHL on a tryout. I like Ellis. I was calling for him to make the team on these boards before just about anyone. But if the guy you've won a cup with and gone deep in the playoffs with, and was recently an All Star and you are paying like a franchise goalie is playing at least as well, yes he gets the nod. That is not blind Cam love. That's how it works.

and these are not pre-season games, they actually count, did Chicago and San Jose treat them like pre-season games ?, What about Tampa Bay,do they consider there 6 point lead in the division meaningless, and we only have 43 games to catch up with them,or the 8th spot. And we cant do that by throwing away points in order for our "#1" goalie to get his act together.

Nobody is claiming the team approached them like preseason games, but the fact that there were zero actual pre season games HAS to be factored into the equation, and ironically might be part of why Chicago and SanJose are off to perfect starts. They are elite teams with most key players having been there for a while and they have feasted on teams that are taking longer to get up to speed.

It really isnt worth saying anything more,becuase the Cam fans have there mind made up,and in there eyes there has never been a goal that was Cams fault.

Gotta say you kind of lose it here. I've been on these boards a while now, and I've never seen anyone think Cam never lets in a soft goal. But of course name a goalie that never does. This is a blanket statement to discredit anyone who disagrees. I can guarantee you that if Cam does not find his game and Ellis keeps playing the way he did his last start, almost every one of us that still think Cam is still the number one, will change our position. We want the Canes to win as much as you do. I just think that the odds of winning, once we're a few game in will be greater with Cam.

Ellis's AHL record this year: 8-7 (Peters: 16-9).

Personally if we knew that Ellis was going to be the next Brodeur, I'd sit Cam in a heartbeat. I have no personal need for Cam to be the goalie. Though it would create a big goalie controversy type distraction.

Finally, despite all the negativity on here, and despite our nasty first two games, we are 2-3. Not exactly over yet.

Edited by remkin

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I think that anybody that compares their employment situation to a professional athlete is barking up the wrong tree. I'll bet you also don't have bunch of morons on a message board deciding your fate when they have no actual input in the situation.

The sample size is still too small to throw anybody under the bus (except for Corvo).

My situation is that I get evaluated on how well I do my job. I don't have a guaranteed contract that states that I will be paid a steady amount regardless of how well I preform. That's how I differ from a professional athlete, my job and paycheck is on the line every day. And by the way he does have input and I have yet to find a moron on these message boards.

Edited by winger52

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you know, all this discussion brings up an interesting question

put youre self in a starting goalies position. If you know youre position depends on sharpness,and focus like a goaltender,wouldnt it be worth all the risks playing in a minor league to keep youre skills sharp and avoid possibly losing youre job,and avoid ugly situations just like this ?

even if not in the AHL,there is the OHL,CHL,KHL and a bunch of other european leagues. Its not facing Crosby,Stamkos or Kane but atleast you would get to see shots,and wouldnt take you has long to adjust to game speed.

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My situation is that I get evaluated on how well I do my job. I don't have a guaranteed contract that states that I will be paid a steady amount regardless of how well I preform. That's how I differ from a professional athlete, my job and paycheck is on the line every day. And by the way he does have input and I have yet to find a moron on these message boards.

Yes, you get evaluated by your boss, just like an athlete does. Ward's "boss" is the coaching staff, not us Internet morons. I'd bet you don't have thousands or millions of wannabe bosses that think they are smarter than your real boss that does your real evaluations.

The main thing to me is that it's still too early to give up on any player. The coaching staff is looking at the big picture.

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Yes, you get evaluated by your boss, just like an athlete does. Ward's "boss" is the coaching staff, not us Internet morons. I'd bet you don't have thousands or millions of wannabe bosses that think they are smarter than your real boss that does your real evaluations.

Isn't choosing to either give up your season tickets or not to buy any tickets giving input?

I like to think that people who take the time to discuss and debate anything and everything about their hockey team on the internet aren't morons, they're passionate fans who care about the performance of their team.

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Isn't choosing to either give up your season tickets or not to buy any tickets giving input?

I like to think that people who take the time to discuss and debate anything and everything about their hockey team on the internet aren't morons, they're passionate fans who care about the performance of their team.

Ya'll are taking this personally. I am including myself in that "Internet moron" bunch and yes, I did give up my season tickets. Where none of have input is in the coaching evaluation and decisions.

I think this whole thread is just people wanting to argue, so peace out.

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Good banter about Cam/Ellis, or Ellis/Cam. Doesn't matter what we say, but what does coach say/think? At last Sunday's "cookout" during Q&A he said something to the effect that whomever is playing better will get their minutes. I'm paraphrasing, but it is essentially what he said.

I took that as he sees what we're all seeing, and Ellis will get his shot with further upside if things continue as they've been so far.

I'm a Cam fan, but last season wasn't good and the slow start hasn't helped. My interpretation of coach's word is Cam's status as starter with heavy minutes is not a given. Coach hasn't been shy about making changes so I'm trusting in him.

Yep ManWolf, fully agree!!! Very well said.

I basically got that same msg from Coach Muller too. Refreshing to hear the Canes #1 goalie job is up for the taking and will be given to the best performing goalie in 2013.

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Yep ManWolf, fully agree!!! Very well said.

I basically got that same msg from Coach Muller too. Refreshing to hear the Canes #1 goalie job is up for the taking and will be given to the best performing goalie in 2013.

Its the same take I had too. The team/coach hasn't shied away from any questions about Cam/Ellis and Mike Smith brought it to the forefront in his TTS blog. They're handling it as I would hope if I were either player by staying supportive to each player while letting things sort out. The one thing I'm sure of is that the coaching staff and GM are well aware of the issues we're all seeing whether be on defense, forward lines or goaltending.

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There can be little doubt that Muller is about as close to the ideal of rewarding guys who get it done, and not guys who don't (see Corvo). The hardest of these seems to be the goalie though and Muller rode Cam last year, despite it being one of his worst years. One could argue that he wasn't confident in Peters, which is probably true, but NOT based on performance. Last year Peter's numbers were significantly better than Wards: .931 vs .915 sv % and 2.48 vs. 2.74 GAA. And that was with all the disadvantages of being the back up. So at least last year Muller's "reward the better performance" did not extend to goalies.

Also, this year he put getting Cam back into form ahead of rewarding Ellis' masterwork.

The thing is that changing #1 goalies carries a lot of risks. First, there is still star power. Muller did sit Corvo, but he did not sit E. or Semin. Making Ward the backup would be similar to putting E on the third line in terms of disruption. Second, and related, it carries the downside of a goalie controversy. Third, you are paying your franchise guy millions to warm the bench. Fourth, if it fails and the backup starts to lose games, well probably the same people brandishing pitchforks now will reappear on the other side of the fence. Fifth, if Ellis becomes the #1 and Cam sits...how long? Then what do you do w/ Cam after that? Careful what you ask for.

This is why two things would need to happen for a complete reversal of #1 and #2 goalies.

1. Cam continues to struggle.

2. Ellis dramatically outplays Cam and steals a few games to boot.

Personally i think you'd need to see both to get a new #1 goalie.

Now playing Ellis more should not be a problem, and he best get one of these back to backs. I know Cam likes back to backs, but that is a luxury reserved for an elite goalie in a full season with a weak back up. Alternate for a while.

Edited by remkin

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Where does Cam Ward rank?

I'm adding fuel to the fire. I haven't decided which side of the Ward/Ellis debate I'm on for one main reason. It's only been 5 games. When we hit the quarter-season mark (12 games), then we'll know which one is playing better and more consistently. I'm giving Cam some time to warm up, and yes, I know it's a shortened season. But, we've got a few more games to feel it out.

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Where does Cam Ward rank?

I'm adding fuel to the fire. I haven't decided which side of the Ward/Ellis debate I'm on for one main reason. It's only been 5 games. When we hit the quarter-season mark (12 games), then we'll know which one is playing better and more consistently. I'm giving Cam some time to warm up, and yes, I know it's a shortened season. But, we've got a few more games to feel it out.

Well, now its out there for all to debate. My guess is this will resolve itself one way or another over the next few weeks. I hope that Cam read that article and gets good and mad. He seems to play better when the heat gets turned up. Ironic or coincidence this article was published this week?

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Yes, you get evaluated by your boss, just like an athlete does. Ward's "boss" is the coaching staff, not us Internet morons. I'd bet you don't have thousands or millions of wannabe bosses that think they are smarter than your real boss that does your real evaluations.

The main thing to me is that it's still too early to give up on any player. The coaching staff is looking at the big picture.

Seems that all of us "wanna be" bosses do have input into the decision making process. After slow starts and losses some will vote not to attend games for whatever reason, failures on offense, defense , or goaltending. As they say we all vote with our feet. So maybe not direct input, but still critical to the team. Maybe a quick start would have given us some room to work this problem out, but with a season that is just over half a regular season magnifies every point and we can't wait until after mid season to make a run. Again... I REALLY EXPECTED BETTER.

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I myself don't understand or agree with the "it takes time for a pro athelete to get the rust off of their game. What difference does it make to them and not any of us that have a job. After we go on vacation can we screw up when we come back?? If we have surgery can we have a few weeks until we are back to being able to do our jobs up to standards?? Why don't they get their game /practice together with their team mates when the season gets closer. To most of the players they have been playing since they were 4 or 5 years old so if they are being paid these high dollars they should be pretty close to the top of their game when the season starts! I am so tired of all the excuses for these so called pro millionaires having to get used to playing a game that they supposedly love and have been playing most of their lives.

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