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Greg-N-Ral

All inclusive goalie discussion

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Well, with Ellis' performance tonight, I say go with the hot goalie.

Yup. He has it right now and it'd be a shame to not give him more starts until he cools off.

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I'm interested to see how Muller handles this. Probably his biggest challenge so far as our head coach. Glad I'm not in his shoes right now.

I agree with you. Tough decision right now because it is hard to argue with a shut out. Ellis

did steal this one for us---BUT---the whole team also played defensively strong in front

of him for 60 minutes. I still say that we should just let the coach decide and be glad

we have two credible goalies for the short season.

And for those who site Cam's drop off in performance last year, remember how the whole

team, including Staal started last year-----until the coaching change !!! It hopefully

is an outlier year.

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I look at the B's game as well...even my father (a B's fan) agreed with me that Cam let in a few softies (the D didn't do him any favors too) that definitely cost us the game.

At this point, we're at the critical juncture in the season...the beginning of our murderer's row...a 6-game road trip. Cam will obviously get the start tonight in Philly, but I think Ellis needs to get the bulk of the starts until we return to Raleigh.

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Great game last night from Ellis and he probably earned the start tonight...one thing that has to be a part of the discussion though is the defensive play of the entire team...we played a phenomenal defensive game and are a totally different team with J Faulk in the line-up. Ellis made 5-6 really nice saves but many of the shots that Ottawa took were not off Grade A chances. We need to see how Cam does with THAT team in front of him and then we can start comparing apples to apples.

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Very Nice -- From NHL.com's Leaders Board thumbsup.gif

nhlleaderboard.jpg

blazing-saddles-305.jpg

Now who can argue with that?

Edited by AWACSooner

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We in Carolina are accustomed to the "#1 goalie" idea that translates into that goalie getting 80% of the starts.

While it works in some cases (Broduer, Luongo (not this year)) it is not always the case.

A goal tending tandem that is closer to a 50/50 split can work - you do not need a so called named #1.

I grew up in the late 70's early 80's watching the Islanders win 4 straight cups with Billy Smith and Chico Resch then Rollie Melanson split games close to 50/50 in the regular season. Smith got the hot hand in their first cup run and then was the main goalie in the playoffs during the stretch but it did not really affect the regular season rotation.

According to NHL stats - Smith's games played (not all seasons but I stretched out around the cup years and really the whole career is similar) ** playoff series were not all 7 games back then**

77-78 38 games (All Star)

78-79 40 games

79-80 38 games (Stanley Cup winner- 20 games)

80-81 41 games (Stanley Cup winner - 17 games)

81-82 46 games (All Star, Vezina, Stanley Cup winner -18 games)

82-83 41 games (Conn Smythe, Stanley Cup winner - 17 games)

83-84 42 games (Stanley Cup Finals - 21 games)

84-85 37 games

Even after carrying the load in the playoffs, winning the Vezina,and winning the Con Smyth it still didn't change in splitting time with the team's other goalie.

I don't want Ellis names as the #1. I want both Ellis and Cam to get 2 between 20-28 starts depending on who is rolling better affecting the final number.

Edited by clark_gillies

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We in Carolina are accustomed to the "#1 goalie" idea that translates into that goalie getting 80% of the starts.

While it works in some cases (Broduer, Luongo (not this year)) it is not always the case.

A goal tending tandem that is closer to a 50/50 split can work - you do not need a so called named #1.

I grew up in the late 70's early 80's watching the Islanders win 4 straight cups with Billy Smith and Chico Resch then Rollie Melanson split games close to 50/50 in the regular season. Smith got the hot hand in their first cup run and then was the main goalie in the playoffs during the stretch but it did not really affect the regular season rotation.

According to NHL stats - Smith's games played (not all seasons but I stretched out around the cup years and really the whole career is similar) ** playoff series were not all 7 games back then**

77-78 38 games (All Star)

78-79 40 games

79-80 38 games (Stanley Cup winner- 20 games)

80-81 41 games (Stanley Cup winner - 17 games)

81-82 46 games (All Star, Vezina, Stanley Cup winner -18 games)

82-83 41 games (Conn Smythe, Stanley Cup winner - 17 games)

83-84 42 games (Stanley Cup Finals - 21 games)

84-85 37 games

Even after carrying the load in the playoffs, winning the Vezina,and winning the Con Smyth it still didn't change in splitting time with the team's other goalie.

I don't want Ellis names as the #1. I want both Ellis and Cam to get 2 between 20-28 starts depending on who is rolling better affecting the final number.

Yeah, I wandered back into this thread. A voice of reason brought me back.

I think a lot of Ward's issues in the past have come from over use. I've never bought into the idea that the player had the say in whether he played or not. I always thought that was a coaches decision (and I only play a coach when I'm being one of the internet morons). Ward has fought some wonky back issues and definitely in 09 in the ECF's, he was off, but Mo had little option other than to stick with him. Most Stanley Cup winners have to go to their backup at some time in their season or playoff run. I'd love to see Ward used less and, I'll call him "the other goalie" used more. Maybe the idea of backup is overdone.

Coastal, you are right in that it's going to be a heck of a challenge for Muller to manage this. I'm glad I'm just a moron internet coach.

Edited by super_dave_1

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Why is it when Cam struggles,our D is pathetic and incompetent,but when Ellis steals a win for us,our defense is elite ?

strange,but not unexpected from the posts I have seen this season. One thing is for sure,Cam is feeling the pressure,like Tripp said last night,Muller emphasized the Goals Against category,and wich goalie has let in 99% of those goals ?

Edited by Carolinafan85

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Why is it when Cam struggles,our D is pathetic and incompetent,but when Ellis steals a win for us,our defense is elite ?

strange,but not unexpected from the posts I have seen this season. One thing is for sure,Cam is feeling the pressure,like Tripp said last night,Muller emphasized the Goals Against category,and wich goalie has let in 99% of those goals ?

Ah, you reminded me why I wandered away from this thread before.

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Why is it when Cam struggles,our D is pathetic and incompetent,but when Ellis steals a win for us,our defense is elite ?

strange,but not unexpected from the posts I have seen this season. One thing is for sure,Cam is feeling the pressure,like Tripp said last night,Muller emphasized the Goals Against category,and wich goalie has let in 99% of those goals ?

I don't think the disagreement is THAT wide on this subject, but would like to understand your position better.

I think you're saying Ellis should play more and that Cam shouldn't simply be played almost exclusively as in the past. I don't think you're saying play Ellis, sit Cam, and we have a new No. 1 goalie.

If the above is correct, most of us are on or close to the same page - including the team's coach.

For clarity I'll state my own view. They're both Goalies on the team I favor and I'm glad we have options, unlike the past few years. In a short season that may be exactly what is needed since this isn't an ordinary campaign.

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Why is it when Cam struggles,our D is pathetic and incompetent,but when Ellis steals a win for us,our defense is elite ?

strange,but not unexpected from the posts I have seen this season. One thing is for sure,Cam is feeling the pressure,like Tripp said last night,Muller emphasized the Goals Against category,and wich goalie has let in 99% of those goals ?

Our defensive play last night was the best so far this season and the best we've seen in a couple years, and needs to play like that no matter who is in net.

When our defense is on, no matter who is in between the pipes, our goalie benefits tremendously. It makes the goalie's job fairly simple and they see most of the shots, only requiring them to make only a handful of awesome saves.

When the defense is off, it puts extra pressure on the goalie. They will cheat, either by leaning or moving to the top of their crease to cut down on angles. This leaves more space for back-door passes and leaves the net wide open and puts them out of position.

Ellis played great last night, but he does have the advantage of playing in Charlotte. We honestly don't know how he would have played if he came into this shorten season with rust. You're not going to shake that rust off by sitting on the bench. It takes game play.

Personally, I think it is great we finally have two solid netminders. Cam will no longer have to shoulder a ton of games because our #2 (or in this case #1A) because he can't be trusted to give Cam nights off. Competition is also great! It pushes both to perform. If you don't have a solid backup pushing your starter, he may not push harder because he knows there is no one behind him.

Edited by hopper915

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The back to back gives the coach a chance to give Cam a chance. My guess is he sits them both down and tells them that Ellis has earned another start, but due to the back to back, that start will be Toronto. Even if we use a tandem for a while (my proposal), Cam needs to play.

Now if Cam does not respond w/ a great game tonight (assuming he gets the start) and Ellis shuts down Toronto....then it will get very very sticky and harder and harder not to play Ellis more and more.

The fact is that the team played a very very atypically strong defensive game last night. This is not just making excuses for Cam. It is having one inch of hockey IQ. If you did not see how well the team played defensively last night, then you might rethink posting about this. Hey, Ellis still needed to make a ton of saves. But there were no highlight saves. There are other nights that the goalie, whoever it is, is simply hung out to dry. If Ellis steals a couple of those, then it will be hard not to favor him longer term over Ward. My own belief is that Cam would have likely gotten the shutout behind that defensive effort last night. But there is no guarantee of it, and the fact is that Ellis did it.

Again, my position is that Ellis has to significantly outplay Ward to get the spot. That doesn't mean he won't. So far he has. So far.

Anyway, I'd stay w/ the alternating 10 games then decide on either one as the primary goalie, or even staying with the alternating.

And w/ the back to back, I'd go w/ Cam tonight w/ the understanding ahead of time that no matter how well Cam plays tonight Ellis gets Toronto.

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I'm certainly no Cam Ward apologist, but anyone who watched the game can see why we won last night. Ellis did a stellar job of holding his own, but the key reason we won was our defensive play by all. Ellis did make a highlight glove save through a lot of traffic that stunned me, as I thought it was a sure goal, but aside from that and maybe a couple of others, he wasn't hammered with quality chances. If we're going to win a playoff birth, then that's the type of D we need to see from our forwards and defense-men all season long, no matter who the netminder is. I don't know if this was a conscience decision of the players to play differently with Ellis in net or not, but that should be our game plan the rest of the season.

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Ellis did make a highlight glove save through a lot of traffic that stunned me, as I thought it was a sure goal...

That was a good one, and a good point. On XM some expert was saying that seeing pucks through traffic was one of the most difficult adjustments for goalies from practice to actual games. He was saying that in practice guys really don't want to commit to standing in front of slapshots and you don't get the same kind of traffic and full speed slap shots. Maybe Cam would have missed that one. Then again, w/ more game time he should get into playing shape.

As w/ most here, I think having two strong goalies is the best thing for this team. It will be interesting to see how Cam plays w/ more rest mixed in. I just think the absolute best case is that Cam returns to max form and is the #1 goalie. It removes the controversy and leaves us w/ a very strong 1, and 1b. If Ellis is that guy, there is controversy.

My guess is that Cam responds at some point soon, and we start to see a very sharp Cam. Best of both worlds.

Edited by remkin

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It's such a nice problem to discuss who is the "better goaltender".. not which one will not suck less..

It's such a nice problem to discuss having 2 #1's.. not having 2 goalies play like #2

It's such a nice problem to have one goaltender with proven playoff success and one that is hungry to get that opportunity..

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One of the things about the D last night was they cleared pucks after the initial shot/save. When the D can't clear the puck and the goalie doesn't have time to right himself before making a 2nd or 3rd save, that's where the trouble starts. I'm also with Remkin on Ellis earning the additional start, but not tonight due to the back to back.

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At least this debate has turned into a mature conversation. You couldn't put your two cents in without them getting crammed back down your throat 2 days ago.

I thought the defense was much improved and if the defense sucks tonight whichever goalie is in I will say that it is. I noticed our backchecking myself, specifically Semin making every effort to get back in the play which is making me oh so happy.

I want him longer then one year.

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If we win this one tonight, we officially have a goaltending controversy...and that's a GREAT thing to have in this perspective!

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The goaltender is the most important position in the game, so it only makes sense it's the position most people will scrutinize. And when you have Cam with his horrible numbers, and Ellis with his ridiculous numbers, can you really expect anything else?

I've been ripping Cam, because it's his own fault he wasn't physically or mentally or whatever prepared for the season. Sorry. I'll stop. Anyways, I agree. We need to play both 50/50 or 55/45.

I doubt Cam would whine about starting less if it meant the team wins more. He said it himself, it's all about getting the win, all other numbers shouldn't matter to him that much.

Personally, I'm happy we finally have a decent second goalie. Peters is good, but still developing IMO, Boucher was injured and it showed, the last second goalie we had that I really liked was Manny Legace (whch I'm still sorta stunned I got to see him in a 'Canes jersey).

Also, anyone notice how I say second goalie and not backup? Well if you all feel like that whole "backup"/"starter" identity should be scrapped, let's call our 'Backup' our second goalie. And since Cam was here first, he's obviously our first goalie. :P

Edited by SuckaPunchd

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