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Greg-N-Ral

All inclusive goalie discussion

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Maybe if the goalie can stop the puck rather than giving up rebounds the shots on goal number will drop. See the game against Philly today. One of the reasons Ellis had a shutout over the Sens was his ability to control the puck. Great goal by Skinner to even the game. Sorry, we couldn't stop the rush, back down one.

Edited by winger52

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Maybe if the goalie can stop the puck rather than giving up rebounds the shots on goal number will drop. See the game against Philly today. One of the reasons Ellis had a shutout over the Sens was his ability to control the puck. Great goal by Skinner to even the game. Sorry, we couldn't stop the rush, back down one.

Once again, easiest to blame the goalie.

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As great as Ellis has been for us could he become our most valuable asset at the trade deadline (of players that we would actually be willing to trade)? Something has to be done to bolster the defense so could it be Ellis heading the other way in any trades?

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Once again, easiest to blame the goalie.

Why not, offense and defense get blamed too, last line of defense should take some too.

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Why not, offense and defense get blamed too, last line of defense should take some too.

See, here's the thing. I don't think anybody has said the Ward hasn't had issues and take some of the blame too. But when the team is allowing the most shots on goal in the league on a regular basis, I don't see how it all falls on the goalie.

I'm thinking it's time for me to vacate this thread again.

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Sometimes teams have to work hard and be patient with their shots to beat a goalie. Other times quantity works better than quality. It seems that we have been on the quantity end of the stick for a number of seasons now.

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Sometimes teams have to work hard and be patient with their shots to beat a goalie. Other times quantity works better than quality. It seems that we have been on the quantity end of the stick for a number of seasons now.

That's the point to me. Save percentage is the best stat easily found, but like most things it only tells about half of the story. There are games where most of the shots are relatively harmless for any goalie, let alone an NHL goalie. If there is a place that keeps track of save percentage on scoring chances that would help,but even that is problematic since it is defined as shots from certain areas of the ice where an unobstructed shot is still highly likely to be saved.

What you'd need to really try to quantify how much your goalie was single handedly saving the day, is some kind of inverse slugging percentage that weighs saves on some kind of scale from clear in from center to 10 bell post to post robbery. If something like that existed I bet Cam would move to near the top of the heap. The "hung out to dry but still makes the save" quotient. Love to know if something like that exists.

If not it will always be subjective. But I can tell you that the last two games have been examples of teams outchancing us and getting lots of great looks, and the goalie generally saving the day. Most of us see that over the last few years Cam has had to do that more than most, possibly more than any goalie.

Just imagine what Cam would do playing behind one of the better defensive teams?

Anyway, until someone can find such a stat, it will alway be a debate.

As to me, when Cam is on his game, he is one of the best. IMHO he stole both of the last two games (point yesterday).

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See, here's the thing. I don't think anybody has said the Ward hasn't had issues and take some of the blame too. But when the team is allowing the most shots on goal in the league on a regular basis, I don't see how it all falls on the goalie.

I'm thinking it's time for me to vacate this thread again.

Exactly! The goaltenders job is to keep the puck from going into the net. It is the responsibility of the DEFENSE to eliminate as many shots as possible. Our D has to play much tighter, can't rely on a hot goalie to always bail them out. We're giving up way too many shots.

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And my point was the goalie can eliminate second and third shots on goal by his control of the puck. That would lower the shots on goal number and reduce the need for a scramble to recover to a new defensive position. When a goalie and his team control the puck you get better results, fewer shots on goal, quicker breakout of the defensive zone, easier line changes, and hopefully more time spent in the offensive zone. And as I said during yesterdays game , we were giving up some juicy rebounds.

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I kind of agree that a goalie should be able to control some rebounds, but certainly can't be expected to control all of them. The difference I see when watching other teams is that they CLEAR the puck from in front of the net and GET CONTROL much much much much better than we do. That's what gives other teams second and third (and in our case fourth, fifth, sixth and sometimes seventh) chances on Cam. You force a goalie to make all those saves, eventually his positioning is screwed and something goes in. Additionally, we don't block nearly as many shots as other teams. I think Philly blocked 32 in our first game against them and 20 yesterday. We had 7 the first game and 11 yesterday. Couple that with the breakdowns we're prone to and we won't keep pucks out of the net.

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Okay time to put the BS to rest. While watching today's Det/LA game Howard has faced 38 shots through the end of the second period and is winning 2 to 1. So I decided to investigate the myth of Cam facing the most shots on goal. Using GP[games played) and SA (shots against) let's see where Cam is in this season.

Top 7

Miller 10/330. 33.0 shots per game

Dubnyk 10/323 . 32.3

Bryzgalov 11/317 . 28.8

Anderson 10/300 . 30.0

Nabakov 10/292. 29.2

Lehtonen 10/291 . 29.1

Howard 10/273 . 27.3 * these numbers will change as it's the start of the 3rd.

Down to 14

Cam 8/241 . 30.125

So can we please stop with the "Cam faces more shots" arguement.

Edited by winger52

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So can we please stop with the "Cam faces more shots" arguement.

Look what team is in dead last. While Cam isn't leading in shots against, if our team average SA/G keeps up he will be soon enough. Look at last season, Cam was second in shots against with 2143 in 68 games, only beaten out by Rinne who faced 2153 in 5 more games. What was our SA/G average then? 32.4, or 1.7 less then where we are now.

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As you can see the shots on goal total are function of the number of games played. Cam is not facing that many more shots in the average game than most other goalies. Sometimes you face 40+ shots and win sometimes you face 12 and lose.

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I wish scoring chances were a easier to find stat because the past 2 weeks the scoring chances against have been horrendous even in winning efforts.

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I wish scoring chances were a easier to find stat because the past 2 weeks the scoring chances against have been horrendous even in winning efforts.

That would be the worthwhile stat to look at for me too. You can have 40+ shots on goal but if only 28 are actual scoring chances, this becomes a whole different argument. The stat on its own is too subjective imo and is dependent on the eye of the person who keeps track of it in the arena and its well known that the home teams are notoriously favored. Although I do understand the argument that if the shot got through to the goalie whether it was right at the logo or not, it should count as a SOG.

The two stats I constantly look at are the scoring chances (when they're reported) and the goal differential. Looking at the standings, unless your team has a positive goal differential its unlikely they'll make the playoffs cut line regardless of the amount of shots on goal.

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Well that is kind of what I was trying to get at a few posts back.

During the game, they report scoring chances. I think its shots from the circles down and w/in a certain point.

But even that does not quantitate the quick pass to the open guy 4 feet from the net w/ no dman around him shots.

Someone somewhere probably keeps that kind of "juicy" shot quotient. Or how about "goale had no chance" shots?

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Okay time to put the BS to rest. While watching today's Det/LA game Howard has faced 38 shots through the end of the second period and is winning 2 to 1. So I decided to investigate the myth of Cam facing the most shots on goal. Using GP[games played) and SA (shots against) let's see where Cam is in this season.

Top 7

Miller 10/330. 33.0 shots per game

Dubnyk 10/323 . 32.3

Bryzgalov 11/317 . 28.8

Anderson 10/300 . 30.0

Nabakov 10/292. 29.2

Lehtonen 10/291 . 29.1

Howard 10/273 . 27.3 * these numbers will change as it's the start of the 3rd.

Down to 14

Cam 8/241 . 30.125

So can we please stop with the "Cam faces more shots" arguement.

Huh?

This is what I see relative to shots per game and the rankings. And I am taking your word for it your numbers are accurate:

Miller 10/330 33.0

Dubnyk 10/323 32.3

Ward 8/241 30.125

Anderson 10/300 30.0

Nabakov 10/292 29.2

Lehtonen 10/291 29.1

Bryzgalov 11/317 28.8

Howard 10/273 27.3

You already standardized the games played by dividing shots by number of games played, so I don't know how in the heck you came up with the top 7, since the statistic is then directly comparable with other goalies.

All you can conclude is Cam faces the third most shots\game considering numbers of shots faced and games played. I guess that's your point.

You presented it like Cam faces the 14th most shots per game in the league, which is just wrong. He's near the top, just like he has been the last two years.

I agree with others, I wish we had the scoring chance stat, because all we know is Cam perenially sees a lot of rubber and we continually see a negative goal differential, which is, as TSA pointed out, quite telling when looking at the playoff cut line.

Edited by coastal_caniac

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Okay time to put the BS to rest. While watching today's Det/LA game Howard has faced 38 shots through the end of the second period and is winning 2 to 1. So I decided to investigate the myth of Cam facing the most shots on goal. Using GP[games played) and SA (shots against) let's see where Cam is in this season.

Top 7

Miller 10/330. 33.0 shots per game

Dubnyk 10/323 . 32.3

Bryzgalov 11/317 . 28.8

Anderson 10/300 . 30.0

Nabakov 10/292. 29.2

Lehtonen 10/291 . 29.1

Howard 10/273 . 27.3 * these numbers will change as it's the start of the 3rd.

Down to 14

Cam 8/241 . 30.125

So can we please stop with the "Cam faces more shots" arguement.

Straight off the NHL website, the Canes are last in the league with averaging 34.1 shots against a game. I know your mind is made up and you don't want to be confused by the facts, but facts is facts.

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That would be shots against the team. I have listed shots against Cam, not both goalies. Sorry you were confused. That may take into account the last couple years of people thinking that stat just meant Cam.

Edited by winger52

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Winger52, you know what's funny - all you've done is validate the opinion of those you are calling BS on.

The difference in 1st or 3rd in shots faced per game is nothing, based on 11 games played. So yes, Cam Ward is right at the top, again.

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That would be shots against the team. I have listed shots against Cam, not both goalies. Sorry you were confused. That may take into account the last couple years of people thinking that stat just meant Cam.

No, I understand that you were trying to skew a stat to fit your argument. The shots against thing is an indicator of the team defense more so than the goalie. If Ward is going to be in goal 90% of the time, then the Canes being worst in the league in shots against will have an effect on Ward's stats. Blame Ward all you want, I'm just saying that team defense plays a major role in goalie stats.

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Speaking of Dan Ellis, I was thinking....

Start him against the Devils. A lot of those guys have seen Cam Ward. Probably not much of Ellis, so it gives us a wild card.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing him play again.

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Speaking of Dan Ellis, I was thinking....

Start him against the Devils. A lot of those guys have seen Cam Ward. Probably not much of Ellis, so it gives us a wild card.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing him play again.

Considering Cam's history vs. the Devils and giving them fits at times, I'd rather see him getting the extra days rest for what likely appears to be another play-off type game. Ellis should do ok against a not-so-good Islanders which would allow him to stack his stats some more and us to argue about them. ^_^

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Winger52, you know what's funny - all you've done is validate the opinion of those you are calling BS on.

The difference in 1st or 3rd in shots faced per game is nothing, based on 11 games played. So yes, Cam Ward is right at the top, again.

Even if you go back to different seasons the shot difference per game on average is less than 2. So I guess all those goalies that make the playoffs either can consistently stop those two shots or their defenses are way better than ours. Seems like we have made changes to our defense every year and our goalie has been the only constant. My thought is consistent goalkeeping breeds consistent defense. Why do we have such a hard time getting good defensive play in front of Cam? We certainly gone through enough of them.

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