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Greg-N-Ral

All inclusive goalie discussion

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Take out the first two games of the season, since everyone on the team was playing terrible...

JB, come on, Dan Ellis did NOT play terrible in the first two games at all.

By the numbers:

He averaged over 92% Save%

and had a stud-like 1.50 GAA!

That's not bad at all my friend. So lets not include Dan Ellis in the "everyone played terrible the first two games" group!

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You can have your "Team Ward" t-shirt and your "Team Ellis" t-shirt. For me, I'm wearing my "Team Canes" shirt.

Yes, Ward had a bad game last night. And I believe Ellis had a bad game earlier this year too. The point is, we have two good goalies that can be lights out when they are at the top of their game. And honestly, both goalies will have bad games from time to time. We can't win them all. Pick up the pieces and let's move on. Focus on the Jets on Thursday. Go Canes!

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I agree with ya 100% but all I can tell you is, us very few skeptics of Cam will get blasted more than Cam does in net. It's always someone elses fault not Cams,, so I see that you are kindof a newer member here so I ( probably the biggest Cam blaster) am warning you get ready for a lot of excuse's for Cam! WELCOME ABOARD

Thanks DJ!

I'm also realizing it's difficult for fans (team announcers, etc.) to give up on a star, or see him as something other than elite, regardless what the preponderance of facts point out.

I love our TV crew too (both John and Tripp), but they don't help matters as they "talk up" even the most average effort from Cam on a nightly basis. Fans are influenced and to some extent Tripp and John are part of the Canes Marketing team (so I cant blame them, they are just doing their jobs).

I'm glad we have Dan Ellis, that's why I started this thread way back.

And, I too would love to see Cam get his GAA under 2.5 and get his Save% above 92%, lets hope it happens, as his $6.5-million salary makes him one of the highest paid at his position!

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What you guys that consider yourselves "skeptics of Ward" don't understand is that you can't prove an opinion. You can argue it all you want to, but don't get defensive when you choose to tilt at windmills.

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take a look at the stats on Ward and you will see he lands in the middle of the pack. siting for three games helped Corvo get "his grove back". Perhaps it will do the same for Ward.

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Cam got his start when the number 1 wasn't getting it done. It's time for Ellis to prove whether or not he can be another #1 again. Cam's just too inconsistent and is not performing at the level we expect of him. He should sit until Ellis stumbles, if he does. Time is too short this season to keep starting Cam in an attempt to try to show confidence in him for his self esteem. He's had enough games that he did't dome through when we needed him to, that he needs to sit as the #2 until such time that he's needed and then see if he can re-earn his number 1 status. It shouln't be a foregone conclusion at this point.

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If Cam gets the next start I might not bother watching the game. I know he's not horrible, but he cost us the win tonight. I don't really care if you think I'm wrong. I'm simply stating my currently negative opinion on Cam Ward. In this season consistency is the difference. Cam obviously has shown he has no consistency right now. Ellis has shown to be more than able to handle the pipes. So I say let Ellis show he can be more than a backup. If not, go back to Ward and keep hoping, but Ellis deserves the starts after the past two than Cam Ward does IMHO.

EDIT: Ah, who am I kidding I can't not watch the Hurricanes. Tlusty!

Edited by SuckaPunchd

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What you guys that consider yourselves "skeptics of Ward" don't understand is that you can't prove an opinion. You can argue it all you want to, but don't get defensive when you choose to tilt at windmills.

Can't prove an opinion but you can prove results. So far stats prove Ellis to be the better goalie at this time.

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I really thought Ellis should've started against the Jets. Maybe the setbacks on D led Muller to go with his #1 guy, but either way I would've liked Ellis Thursday and Sunday. Ward is clearly out of his groove even though he had a few hot games prior to the Montreal disaster. Like stated above, we'll have to see and hope Ellis can get a few good games in while Ward takes the bench for a bit to kick him into gear or something.

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I still think the long term argument on Cam will end up being Cam is elite. However, there is no denying that he has struggled the last 4 periods, and while I am a proponent of Cam as our number 1, I also think Ellis should play tomorrow. Cam has shown that while he likes to play through these patches, he does not sulk if he has to sit.

Cam played very well in allowing us one of if not the best road trip in our history. However, he is having issues finding consistency, as our several other elite goalies in this weird season. BTW this is the time in a lock out season that players hit a wall of sorts according to several players who went through this during the last shortened season.

Anyways, Ellis has played very well, and is in a perfect position to be completely on his game, having played all year, but also having lots of time between starts.

Putting Ellis in tomorrow is a no-lose proposition for Cam. If Ellis plays well and we get a huge win, the team can relax a bit, and Cam still plays in the road game. If Ellis stinks, then the team will look back to Cam to pick it up. Cam has played most of the games, playing Ellis tomorrow should not feel like a threat. And last time Cam did fine with it and actually came back stronger.

Now since I think this it is almost a certainty that Muller goes back to Cam.

Edited by remkin

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Now since I think this it is almost a certainty that Muller goes back to Cam.

Muller has sad that he wants accountability. Is he being inconsistent if he starts Ward on Saturday?

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Now since I think this it is almost a certainty that Muller goes back to Cam.

Muller has sad that he wants accountability. Is he being inconsistent if he starts Ward on Saturday?

I totally agree with you 100% ---VERY WELL SAID!!

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Now since I think this it is almost a certainty that Muller goes back to Cam.

Muller has sad that he wants accountability. Is he being inconsistent if he starts Ward on Saturday?

Just to be clear I was injecting a little sarcasmalert.gif at the end there.

I completely agree that Muller should start Ellis tomorrow. Completely.

But I have been so bad at predicting what Muller will do in these situations, I am just assuming I am wrong predicting Ellis will start.

Thus I wrote since I think Ellis should start, it is almost certain Muller will go the other way just to prove me wrong again.

Edited by remkin

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Tampa Bay is averaging a league leading

3.81 goals per game.

And, we all know about our injuries on the blue line.

If Dan can limit TB to 4 or fewer goals tonight, he'll have done his job!

Lets go Dan! Lets go Canes!

Edited by Greg-N-Ral

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Setting the bar a touch low there? 4 goals would be worse than their average, and almost always loses the game.

Edited by remkin

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As good as Ellis is supposed to be, he should easily be able to pitch a shutout. No reason to say he should hold them to 4, that's Cam Ward territory there.

:RedLamp:

Sarcasm alert

:RedLamp:

Edited by super_dave_1

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I still think the long term argument on Cam will end up being Cam is elite.

Rem, can you explain what objective (fact based) evidence you have for thinking Cam will become elite?

I'd really love to understand what your fact-based rational is, assuming "elite" = Top-5 NHL goalie.

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As good as Ellis is supposed to be, he should easily....

Exactly how good do you think Ellis really is?

Finishes with GAA below 2.00 this year? Below 3.00? Above 3.00? Above/below Cam's GAA?

All ears here...

Edited by Greg-N-Ral

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[/size]

Rem, can you explain what objective (fact based) evidence you have for thinking Cam will become elite?

I'd really love to understand what your fact-based rational is, assuming "elite" = Top-5 NHL goalie.

Well you defined elite as top 5. Probably fair. Top 6 make the All Star Game.

I went back to see if I could find an old post of mine that laid out my argument and found 5 pages of TOPIC's where I had opined on Ward going back quite a ways.

If you took the time (I don't recommend it), you'd see that as time passed post cup victory, I was fairly hard on Ward. I actually was in the infamous "average at best" in 07 on for a while. I could see the potential, but he was very inconsistent.

However, one has to look at the progress and the steady improvement.

Despite one of the softest defenses in the league historically his save percentage and save percentage ranking (got to use ranking since things vary year to year). After his stunning playoff run to the cup, he fell back some, but then improved steadily every year for 4 straight years.

07: .904 rank 24th

08: .916 rank 9th

09: .916 rank 9th (tied w/ Brodeur)

10: .923 rank 4th, #3 in wins, All Star appearance earned, not given

These rankings are based on 45 starts, (50 starts in 10).

Last year was an off year, and he's been slow to find his game in this bizzare lockout year, but this year is far from over.

Add 2 deep playoff runs and one Stanley Cup and Con Smythe.

If Cam had stayed on his 2010 numbers I wouldn't be typing right now, since there would be no debate. But last year was uneven.

I can understand if one looks at last year and the start of this year, that they might be skeptical.

BUT even if you look at last year, his save % was .915, #17 of all goalies w/ at least 40 starts. And that was an off year for sure. But not just for Cam, but for the entire team. Recall E.'s league worst +/-. Some of those minuses did not help Cam out. Yet even with all of that, and horrid defense, Cam ends up middle of the pack. (I'm pretty sure he finished strong under Muller too, so probably top third in the back half of the year).

Now one could argue that the 2010 season was the standout and he is really more like the #9 ranking of the two years prior. That would be a fair argument. Still a top 10 goalie.

However, watching this team closely since 06, and watching other teams in the league, it is my opinion that Cam has historically been hung out to dry FAR more than most goalies over the years. Facing more odd man rushes (fairly regular during both Lavi and Mo years) and point blank chances than average. Don't know where to find these stats, but then neither do the Cam sucks people. It is my opinion and observation.

So I am willing to weight Cam's save % up some. Excuses? If you want to look at it like that. My opinion is that it is a reality.

Some teams (Boston, for instance) seem to have great goalie stats no matter who is playing. Teams with a Chara or a suffocating defense are going to have goalies with great stats. On the flip-side look at the history of our backups over the Cam years. Historically playing behind our defense has NOT been a good career move for a back up goalie.

Finally, a lot of experts that I trust, go on and on about how Cam makes it look easy, and is elite. Just about everyone on here respects John Forslund. He is a huge Cam lover. Yes, he works for the team, but I think he really believes it. He estimates a minimum of 20 teams in the league would trade #1 goalies w/ us straight up in a heart beat. Forslund insists his comments are based on many discussions w/ inside experts from other teams.

It is my opinion that the 2010 Cam is the real Cam. That's what we are going to get once he settles down. He was at worst the straight up 5th best goalie in the league. But when you factor the swiss cheese defense in, I'd bump him to top 3.

That's elite.

Am I right? Of course, I'm always right....pat.gif. (Had to use that one since I requested it).

But in point of fact, only time will tell.

I think Cam bounces back fast (tomorrow).

That all said, I am also thrilled w/ Ellis and I think I was the first one on these boards to call for locking him down this year.

Two solid goalies is awesome.

Edited by remkin

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Exactly how good do you think Ellis really is?

Finishes with GAA below 2.00 this year? Below 3.00? Above 3.00? Above/below Cam's GAA?

All ears here...

You are the one that said if he could hold them to 4. Cam gives up 4 and it is a disaster.

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