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rememberthewhale

Who should stay and who should go for next year

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This maybe absurd, but what if we bought out pitkanen? I don't think our defense has been any worse with him out of action. I think money's going to be extremely tight considering JR wants to add at least 2 defensemen, and we currently don't have a 4th line center and another winger for the 3rd line. Freeing up another 4.5mil could go a long way.

It would depend on his injury status, and when the compliance buy-out window is, but I doubt he will be eligible to be bought out.

Plus, while the cap will be fogiven for compliance buy-outs, the salary still needs to be paid according to the usual buy-out rules. In this case, it would be 1.5m for the next two seasons.

Unless there is a d-man available that is better then Pitkanen, but will cost less than 3m, it doesn't seem a great move.

Also, Pitkanen played very well at the beginning of the season, before  his first injury, and it seems like he will work well with what Muller wants to do. It will be hard enough to make the defense better without having to replace him. (Which I worry may end up being necessary anyway, depending on his recovery.)

While money/cap space will be tight, there are only 5 d-men currently on one way contracts, and there is 6.25m freed up with expiring one-way contracts - 3m of that from the blue line.

So, if that d-man that is better than Pitkanen, but will cost less than 3m is available, I'd prefer to see him added to a d-corp with Pitkanen than replace him.

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Plus Pitkanen's recent contract was considered a good "home discount" value and there is only one year left, right?  That combined with his ability to eat up big minutes and score a few points here and there make him a good trading piece.  I wouldn't buy him out unless he had no tradeable tangibles and was basically costing us games.

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Yah...with Joni, I want him gone...but not for zilch.  Use him as trade bait.  Him and McBain for Marc!!!!!

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I think any team would be foolish to even consider trading for Marc Staal until his health and then his play proves otherwise.  The guy can't even see out of one eye.

Yes he can...it's still degraded vision, but the docs said it will take something like another 3-4 months to completely heal.

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Joni's 4.5 million expiring deal could be worth a lot at the next trade deadline when struggling teams start going into salary dump mode.

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I thought this might be interesting, it's a list of every young player (less than 50 total NHL games played) that the Canes have given a shot since the Stanley Cup Championship:

 

06-07

 

LaRose 80 GP (49 prev)

Babchuk 52 GP (44 prev)

Aucoin 8 GP (7 prev)

Gove 1 GP (1 prev)

 

07-08

 

Aucoin 38 GP (15 prev)

Conboy 19 GP

Borer 11 GP

Brookbank 32 GP

Nolan 6 GP

Jensen 6 GP

Mormina 1 GP

 

08-09

 

Bra Sutter 50 GP

Helminen 23 GP

Rodney 8 GP

Brookbank 27 GP

Conboy 28 GP (19 prev)

Dwyer 13 GP

Borer 3 GP (11 prev)

Carson 5 GP

Boychuk 2 GP

 

09-10

 

Dwyer 58 GP (13 prev)

Carson 54 GP (5 prev)

Rodney 22 GP (8 prev)

McBain 14 GP

Boychuk 31 GP (2 prev)

Harrison 38 GP (20 prev)

Bowman 9 GP 

Samson 7 GP

Conboy 12 GP (47 prev)

Borer 2 GP (14 prev)

Osala 1 GP (2 prev)

 

10-11

 

Skinner 82 GP

McBain 76 GP (14 prev)

Boychuk 23 GP (33 prev)

Dalpe 15 GP 

Matsumoto 13 GP

Samson 23 GP (7 prev)

Bowman 23 GP (9 prev)

Rodney 3 GP (30 prev)

Bre Sutter 1 GP (18 prev)

 

11-12

 

Faulk 66 GP

Bowman 37 GP (32 prev)

Samson 16 GP (30 prev)

Bre Sutter 15 GP (19 prev)

Dalpe 16 GP (15 prev)

Nash 5 GP

Sanguinetti 3 GP (5 prev)

Welsh 1 GP

 

12-13

 

Nash 32 GP (5 prev)

Sanguinetti 37 GP (8 prev)

Dalpe 10 GP (31 prev)

Bellemore 8 GP

Terry 3 GP

Welsh 5 GP (1 prev)

Bre Sutter 3 GP (34 prev)

Blanchard 9 GP

Ja Staal 2 GP

Jordan 5 GP

Murphy 4 GP

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lol.. the other thing that blows my mind is PK and JR just now figuring out after 2-3 years that we need defensive help and need to get tougher.......???????  DO YA THINK??????????? and these people are professionals????  wow...... if i hadnt seen there faces id say dumb blondes...... the more i think about it there must be some rival GMs out there just laughing at the makeup of this team the last two years.......

 

 

This is what I've been saying since I joined this board. Our deficiencies have been obvious for years and the light is just coming on for management now. I know people will defend JR, but IMO the last few years of not addressing team needs is unacceptable.

Speaking of unacceptable, this organization better not even whisper the word "accountability." Coaches and management blaming the players to cover up for management's inability to have proper depth in the organization doesn't count. Using injuries as an excuse doesn't count either.

The funny thing is, if these injuries didn't happen, we most likely would have made the post-season and not be remotely concerned about our defense. So this is a miracle in disguise.

 

coastal: I think any team would be foolish to even consider trading for Marc Staal until his health and then his play proves otherwise.  The guy can't even see out of one eye.

 

You're forgetting we're the Hurricanes.

 

I hate these quoteblock limits

Edited by SuckaPunchd

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At this stage, all i want is someone to come out and say that this crap is no longer acceptable and that changes will be made...then start making the changes...

 

That sounds good to me.

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The funny thing is, if these injuries didn't happen, we most likely would have made the post-season and not be remotely concerned about our defense. So this is a miracle in disguise.

True, I said this back in a game day thread. I'm glad this happened so it makes our deficiencies even more obvious, even to idiots (see: management). At least we didn't go into the playoffs and get spanked, letting the powers that be cling to the delusion that we are one or two pieces away from having a team that is "ready to make a deep run in the playoffs."

Having said that, there should be some tangible "accountability" for this debacle.

Edited by Kyrule

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Well her comes the cynical part of me. No facts, just a feeling..I think Joni needs one more surgery. He will wait until about a week away from training camp to decide to have that surgery. Joni starts skating late Nov or early Dec.

Edited by winger52

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Well her comes the cynical part of me. No facts, just a feeling..I think Joni needs one more surgery. He will wait until about a week away from training camp to decide to have that surgery. Joni starts skating late Nov or early Dec.

 

What's cynical about it?  It follows the typical pattern.  Your feeling is based on good past history with players on this team.

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when is the surgery on Ruutu's other hip scheduled to take place?  how it is long before the start of training ca,p

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True, I said this back in a game day thread. I'm glad this happened so it makes our deficiencies even more obvious, even to idiots (see: management). At least we didn't go into the playoffs and get spanked, letting the powers that be cling to the delusion that we are one or two pieces away from having a team that is "ready to make a deep run in the playoffs."

Having said that, there should be some tangible "accountability" for this debacle.

You, sir, are smart  :goodpost:

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the Wings have made the playoff for the past 21 years.  the Black-hawks struggled for a long time and in the recent past have become  a continual playoff team.  why can't the Canes learn from these successes to become an ongoing playoff team?  shouldn't making the playoffs be a given rather than a mere expectation?

 

what would it take to install a "culture of winning" into the entire Canes organization?  that is, Canes-related teams are going to win every league in which they compete.

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what would it take to install a "culture of winning" into the entire Canes organization?  

It starts at the top... the GM needs to step aside. He's had a VERY LONG run.

Excepting this team to suddenly get a consistent winning culture on JR's watch is for the wishful thinkers, those that simply hope for the best and irrational optimists.

We need to hire  away front office staff from Det and/or Chicago and/or  Boston and/or Pit.  

Bottom line? Breaking up JR's "old boy's club" is overdue.

 

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Okay, fine Greg.  I'll follow up on Collefan's question, which you quoted but didn't answer, with a couple of my own. 

 

Again, who in the "old boys club" front office, and working your way up to the GM position, should be let go immediately?

 

Who, from the front office staffs of  Detroit, Chicago, Boston, or Pittsburgh should be hired immediately to replace those you suggest should be let go?

 

Once this has been accomplished, how long will it take for that winning culture to suddenly appear? 

Edited by coastal_caniac

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The only organization listed with a seriously long run of success is Detroit. While I like the moves Pittsburgh has made recently, both Pittsburgh and Chicago followed the model of seriously bad for a prolonged period, get the very top draft picks for several years, take a couple of years to gell, then use a bigger budget and the new winning to attract key free agents. Boston has also had amazing luck finding themselves picking ultra high in the draft, and landing Chara was a huge part of their success.

Chicago needs a FA? How about Hossa? Nice. Budget? No problem.

One does has to defer to what Detroit has been able to accomplish. They have been masters of finding super talent late in the draft. None more important than one Nick Lidstrom, who was a big part of all that winning. If I'm not mistaken one of their draft geniuses did get poached by a team, I'm not sure which one...but there are about 29 teams that would like Detroit's success.

I came on for the cup year so that's my frame of reference. I'm not even entirely sure how he did it, but JR assembled a true cup level group. The "figured out the rules first" line is WAY overstated. Despite an el cheapo budget JR put together that team Cole,J. Williams, E. Staal, Stillman, Ray Whitney, Matt Cullen, Rod Brind'Amour (still in his prime), Cam Ward, Glen Wesley, Andrew Ladd, then the rentals oh just Mark Recci and Doug Weight. Hedican and Wallin were decent.

Fluke? Cullen, Cole, J. Williams, Ray Whitney, A. Ladd, Staal, all went on to have more seriously productive years ahead. Stillman, Brindy got old, but they were all legit that year. Really the only fluke was C.Ward emerging way ahead of schedule. The rest of that team was for real, and JR built it on a budget.

He also built two other teams that made deep runs on a budget.

Believe me, as a truly spoiled fan that really discovered the teammin 05-06, and the same year was at every playoff game including both game 7's, and watch the cup hoisting, I feel the pain of missing the playoffs these last few years. This year's losing streak was a gut punch.

But this year and last are the first years JR has been in a position to throw any money around. And I was amazed he landed Semin. I was one who called for it early when others were saying NO!!!, but JR went out and actually did it. And I still think J.Staal is going to be a huge positive starting next year. Those were big moves.

He built a weak, thin defense. He could not grab a key FA defenseman last year. That is on JR. I think JR was planning on part II being to fix the defense this year. He thought he could get into the playoffs on offense and adequate defense. That doesn't work with key defensive injuries and losing your #1 goalie. It was exposed and it was ugly.

But he is focused on building the defense and has a #5 draft pick.

I still believe. Am I naive? Maybe. But Muller did get 100 points out of a pretty average team over an 82 game stretch before the streak. I think he still has the team's respect. I still think JR gets us some defense.

Thank God E. will hopefully be back at the start. And Wardo.

Maybe I am an unrealistic optimist, but it's not like JR has done nothing. We have the pieces other than defense. I'm willing to give him one more shot at the defense. The rest is there.

J. Staal, Skinner find their game? I think they will and with a stronger D, and Ward back....next year it all comes together. You heard it here first.

If not....ok then it's time.

Edited by remkin

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The only organization listed with a seriously long run of success is Detroit. While I like the moves Pittsburgh has made recently, both Pittsburgh and Chicago followed the model of seriously bad for a prolonged period, get the very top draft picks for several years, take a couple of years to gell, then use a bigger budget and the new winning to attract key free agents. Boston has also had amazing luck finding themselves picking ultra high in the draft, and landing Chara was a huge part of their success.

Chicago needs a FA? How about Hossa? Nice. Budget? No problem.

One does has to defer to what Detroit has been able to accomplish. They have been masters of finding super talent late in the draft. None more important than one Nick Lidstrom, who was a big part of all that winning. If I'm not mistaken one of their draft geniuses did get poached by a team, I'm not sure which one...but there are about 29 teams that would like Detroit's success.

I came on for the cup year so that's my frame of reference. I'm not even entirely sure how he did it, but JR assembled a true cup level group. The "figured out the rules first" line is WAY overstated. Despite an el cheapo budget JR put together that team Cole,J. Williams, E. Staal, Stillman, Ray Whitney, Matt Cullen, Rod Brind'Amour (still in his prime), Cam Ward, Glen Wesley, Andrew Ladd, then the rentals oh just Mark Recci and Doug Weight. Hedican and Wallin were decent.

Fluke? Cullen, Cole, J. Williams, Ray Whitney, A. Ladd, Staal, all went on to have more seriously productive years ahead. Stillman, Brindy got old, but they were all legit that year. Really the only fluke was C.Ward emerging way ahead of schedule. The rest of that team was for real, and JR built it on a budget.

He also built two other teams that made deep runs on a budget.

Believe me, as a truly spoiled fan that really discovered the teammin 05-06, and the same year was at every playoff game including both game 7's, and watch the cup hoisting, I feel the pain of missing the playoffs these last few years. This year's losing streak was a gut punch.

But this year and last are the first years JR has been in a position to throw any money around. And I was amazed he landed Semin. I was one who called for it early when others were saying NO!!!, but JR went out and actually did it. And I still think J.Staal is going to be a huge positive starting next year. Those were big moves.

He built a weak, thin defense. He could not grab a key FA defenseman last year. That is on JR. I think JR was planning on part II being to fix the defense this year. He thought he could get into the playoffs on offense and adequate defense. That doesn't work with key defensive injuries and losing your #1 goalie. It was exposed and it was ugly.

But he is focused on building the defense and has a #5 draft pick.

I still believe. Am I naive? Maybe. But Muller did get 100 points out of a pretty average team over an 82 game stretch before the streak. I think he still has the team's respect. I still think JR gets us some defense.

Thank God E. will hopefully be back at the start. And Wardo.

Maybe I am an unrealistic optimist, but it's not like JR has done nothing. We have the pieces other than defense. I'm willing to give him one more shot at the defense. The rest is there.

J. Staal, Skinner find their game? I think they will and with a stronger D, and Ward back....next year it all comes together. You heard it here first.

If not....ok then it's time.

 

I guess you missed the great year Gerber had. Ward got to be the "HOT" hand in the playoffs.  Gerber and a couple of 9 game win streaks got us there.

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I guess you missed the great year Gerber had. Ward got to be the "HOT" hand in the playoffs.  Gerber and a couple of 9 game win streaks got us there.

 

No, that's a good point. I do tend to forget Gerber since we would have been bounced in round one if he was all we had. He was solid in getting us to the playoffs. That team would have gotten there anyway, but maybe not seeded as high.

 

Gerber lost the first two games of the playoffs vs. Montreal and was not playing well at that key time. Gerber was solid in getting us there, but we needed Ward to close the deal. 

 

But JR got both of them, and while we have a separate thread for that, this one had drifted into firing JR, which was the main point of my post: JR built that team (including Gerber and Lavi). Can he do it again? I think he can.

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But JR got both of them, and while we have a separate thread for that, this one had drifted into firing JR, which was the main point of my post: JR built that team (including Gerber and Lavi). Can he do it again? I think he can.

 

 I think so too and I think much of the building has already been done.  Look at the other teams drafting around us and I'd think we are in better shape than most....we have our #1 goalie, we have 2 VERY capable scoring lines.  A third line with Dwyer Nash and Bowman should be given a chance.  I think that could be a very capable group if we can be patient with Bowman (he needs to get healthy and then work his butt off this offseason).   4th line needs to get a little tougher...Welsh will be there, I'd like to see Wallace back in the ranks and Blanchard, Jared Staal, and the 2 Sutters could also get a look at that roster spot.  In terms of D, Gleason, Pitkanen and Faulk are all very good defensemen, and Harrison is certainly servicable as a 3rd line pairing.  I'd like to see MAB here to start the season so Murphy can get some more time in the AHL and maybe come up mid-season or so. 

 

Replacing Corvo, McBain and Sanguinetti with guys who are a little stronger and more oriented to stay home are the real priority.  In all though, it's a couple holes to plug and I like where we are. 

 

Semin Staal Tlusty

Ruutu J. Staal Skinner

Dwyer Nash Bowman

Wallace Welsh Blanchard/Westgarth/Jared/Sutter/Sutter

 

Gleason/Faulk

Pitkanen/_____

Harrison/MAB/______ as we will likely carry 7 D-Men

 

That's a pretty darn good lineup and it also is why we can totally afford to draft and wait on Nich. 

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Something I'd be quite happy with going into the new division lineup.

 

Tlusty - Staal - Semin

Barkov (Drouin) - Staal - Skinner

M. Cooke - V. Rask - R. Torres

Dwyer - Nash - T. Kennedy

 

 - Buyout  or trade Ruutu (assuming he says yeah) and take that money to the defense

 - Off load Welsh and Bowman (due to one-way contracts)

 - Westgarth isn't needed, and is replaced with players who actually bring "it" and have skill

 - Reserves = Charlotte Checkers, whomever they are once that lineup has revealed itself.  Preferable  

   non-waiver eligible players.  

 

Gleason - Faulk

Pitkanen - D. Murray

Harrison - R. Murphy

 

Reserves: Bellemore or MAB

 

Cam Ward

Dan Ellis or some other veteran door opener

 

That team comes in around 62 million.  Take McBain and Dalpe and get what you can, or trade for picks and/or eqivalent prospects.

 

I understand some people will likely freak out, but it's time to shake things up and actually put a team together that can compete, particularly come playoff time, assuming we make it.  That, and I'm tired of being afraid to put some real grit on this team and it's time to just stop with putting a bottom six together that would be in the press box on most teams.

 

And just let somebody mess with Skinner, Barkov\Drouin.  Just try it.  We just put that third line out against the opponent's skilled players.

 

Break the mold JR and just finally do something out of the box.

Edited by coastal_caniac

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We don't need Cooke, Torres is an interesting thought though and Murray will be high on everyone's list...we want a good player but at the right price...it may be that we will have to dig a little deeper in the pool to find a steady guy at the right price if we go the FA route or we make a trade, which i think is the more likely road.  If we get lucky and Drounin or Barkov are available at 5, that's a no-brainer and we could slot either one in the 3rd line for starters.  If not, then Nich would be our guy...maybe even draft Nurse and work a swap with Philly drafting Nich and us moving Nurse and McBain for Nich and maybe a guy like Bruno Gervais who blocked 41 shots in 37 games for Philly. 

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We don't need Torres or Cooke. We need to get tough,not dirty. Look at the Bruins 4th line. Those guys play tough and physical, but they don't get suspended for dirty hits. If we pick up these two thugs, I'm done. If we get dirty players, guys like Skinner will have a bigger target on their back. We need tough, honest hockey players that can enforce and play. I can't remember Cooke standing up for a team mate, and very rarely answering a challenge after a questionable hit. Gutless!

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Clarkson would be a much better fit!  How about this:

 

Semin, Staal, Tlusty

Barkov, Staal, Ruutu

Clarkson, Rask, Skinner

Blanchard, Welsh, Westgarth

 

 

Faulk, Gleason

Pitkenen, Streit

Bellemore, Harrison

Murphy

 

Next year, when Joni is off the books, we can spend his money on a legit shutdown defender.

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