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Greg-N-Ral

Jordan Staal vs. B. Sutter

Jordan Staal vs Brandon Sutter  

32 members have voted

  1. 1. Who is the better player Jordan Staal or Brandon Sutter? (not asking who won the trade)

    • Jordan Staal is better
      16
    • Brandon Sutter is better (putting aside he's no longer a Cane)
      8
    • About tie actually
      6
    • Not sure yet
      2


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Well, between Jordan and Brandon, it was evident who was better last night.

 

I'll wait til next season before pressing final judgment

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:tsktsk: Why? Why? Why?  :tsktsk:   

 


Seriously, why? It's been one compressed weird season. Nowhere near enough to make a clear cut evaluation of who's better. Try me in a couple years.

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:tsktsk: Why? Why? Why?  :tsktsk:   

 

Seriously, why? It's been one compressed weird season. Nowhere near enough to make a clear cut evaluation of who's better. Try me in a couple years.

 

Pretty much this, not to mention a huge part of why we went after Jordan was because we're expecting him to find his offensive touch in the next couple of seasons. I think quite a few people here were expecting that to happen immediately, that he was going to come over and instantly light the lamp, but the reality of things is that it takes time to adjust and develop consistency. Having Ruutu hopefully all of next season will help him with that transition, and Skinner improving his playmaking and defensive coverage (if playing second line wing next year) will go a long way towards letting Jordan feel comfortable with doing offensive work and build that consistency.

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I mean no offense by this, and I know everybody has their own opinions, but Jordan Staal is on another lever from Brandon Sutter.  I like Brandon.  He was a great player for the Hurricanes.  I wish we could have made the deal without loosing him, but Jordan Staal is a far superior hockey player.  He was good this year.  He didn't have great line and that effected his points some, but still a good year.  You can expect him to be at a whole other level next year.  He had some good chemistry with Ruutu.  We need to find a play making wing to go with them.  Nothing elite, just a skilled wing that can find the open man.  He doesn't have to be big or strong because Jordan is big and strong and Ruutu plays huge!  With a little luck tonight, or a trade at the draft, Drouin would make that line lethal.  He would be an instant ROY candidate!

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But are we better long term with J. than Sutter? 

.....J. is better, by a lot. 

Really?  Guess it depends how you define "better."

Moving forward Jordan Staal is going to cost this team $6-million per season!

For $6-million...

Would you rather have:  Brandon Sutter + Marc Staal  - or - just Jordan Staal?  

Both options cost the same!  Now come on, what's really "better" for this team. 

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Marc Staal isn't playing hockey right now and probably won't for awhile more - just saying.

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Would you rather have:  Brandon Sutter + Marc Staal  - or - just Jordan Staal?  

Both options cost the same!  Now come on, what's really "better" for this team. 

 

They only cost the same because Jordan just signed his career contract.  In the next couple years, Brandon and Marc will sign their career contracts (assuming Marc makes a good recovery).  Then, they will not cost the same.

 

...and you can count me in the bring Marc to Raleigh crowd.  He is an excellent all around defenseman with a great work ethic!

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Really?  Guess it depends how you define "better."

Moving forward Jordan Staal is going to cost this team $6-million per season!

For $6-million...

Would you rather have:  Brandon Sutter + Marc Staal  - or - just Jordan Staal?  

Both options cost the same!  Now come on, what's really "better" for this team. 

 

What's better for the team and which player is better are two entirely different questions.

 

1) Better for the team? I'd probably take Marc and Brandon. Team needs tough D-men and Sutter on a 3rd line could really spread the talent. That could change though, as each of the players will develop at different rates (team dynamics will change as well).

 

2) Better player? Jordan Staal. You can argue about salaries all you want, but that has nothing to do with the skill level of each player. When evaluating talent, it's essentially a "same price" comparison.

 

So since you brought it up, who would you rather have at $6 million a season? My answer is still Jordan Staal.

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So since you brought it up, who would you rather have at $6 million a season? My answer is still Jordan Staal.

Well all I can say here is good luck with that!!  Jordan Staal's 60-million package kicking in next year, now ranks his income (deal) with the likes of: 

Marian Hossa
Rick Nash 
Brad Richards
Corey Perry
and Jeff Carter.

Yeap I'd rather have Jordan Staal over all those guys too! LOL

:sarcasm: 

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Based on the numbers J put up from the third line and some second line in Pittsburgh, his age, his last two playoff run stats, and his draft position, I expect to see J put up a lot more next year than he did this year. Still he put up a projected 53 point year this year.

 

He averaged .77 ppg his last two years in Pittsburgh, which is 63 points over a full season. Much of that centering the checking line.

 

I expect him to be high 60's next year at least. I don't see Sutter doing that.

 

That would put him right with the names on your list, except maybe Hossa. My prediction is that his numbers next year will fit on many teams first line.

 

But he has also historically been a good 2 way player.

 

Only time will tell if we overpaid, but it was a rare opportunity to get this guy. 

Edited by remkin

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Rem, Nash has averaged over 0.8 points over his entire NHL career.  Note: he's actually done it  -- its not based on hopes, dreams and projections.

But in any case, are you really (honestly) trying to use numbers to somehow think/say Jordan Staal is in the same class as Rick Nash?  Perry (over 0.8)? Hossa?   J's in this class...REALLY???   Jordan Staal is as good as these guys?... please! 



...  




 

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Well all I can say here is good luck with that!!  Jordan Staal's 60-million package kicking in next year, now ranks his income (deal) with the likes of: 

Marian Hossa
Rick Nash 
Brad Richards
Corey Perry
and Jeff Carter.

 

The title of the thread is "Jordan Staal vs. Brandon Sutter", not "Jordan Staal vs. other big-time talent". Since I guess you missed the point of my question, I'll re-word it a bit: "If you were going to pay Staal or Sutter the exact same salary (let's say 5 years, $6 mil per), which would you prefer?" Again, at equal salary, I take Staal over Sutter all day. The discrepancy between the two players' salaries is a different matter altogether.

 

Note: I'd like to reiterate that I'm not comparing Staal with the Richards, Perry, Hossa, Nash, etc. players because that's not the point of this thread.

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Stealth, I watched J very carefully, mainly in the last 25-ish games of the year. On TV its naturally a little harder to key in on a player's full ice game, but I saw all but one home game in person and carefully keyed on his overall game at PNC.

My take? It really wasn't pretty -- getting out muscled, out hustled, missing passes, quickly flicking the puck off his stick... it really was clear to me, at times, he really did not want to be out there (imo).  Now, maybe that's the good news... maybe he really can do more and maybe he will step up next year. But, lets face it, that's a lot of maybes.

Saying "IF" Sutter and J.Staal made the same is a 100% theoretical question.

"Who's better" is a function of how much they help their team WIN (and in today's NHL, that implies at their current/future salary).


For what its worth, when I got this thread poll started here, I voted "tie" but after carefully watching J and looking bigger picture (considering salary), I was prob being optimistic about Jordan.   Again, I hope what I saw from him at the end of last season was an outlier.



 
Edited by Greg-N-Ral

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How did you have time to critique JStaal when you were honed in on Ward?

JStaal didn't have a great year, but it was a lockout shortened season with a new team and no training camp. He also had Skinner and "insert winger de jour" for the season. With Ruutu out, it left a huge gap in the top 6 with nobody, and I mean nobody stepping up.

So much wrong happened this year that I have trouble being overly critical on any single player.

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Rem, Nash has averaged over 0.8 points over his entire NHL career.  Note: he's actually done it  -- its not based on hopes, dreams and projections.

But in any case, are you really (honestly) trying to use numbers to somehow think/say Jordan Staal is in the same class as Rick Nash?  Perry (over 0.8)? Hossa?   J's in this class...REALLY???   Jordan Staal is as good as these guys?... please! 

 

 

No, right now he is not as good as those guys. 

 

But if he builds on what he did in Pittsburgh he will be in that neighborhood. Two years in a row and over a good number of playoff games where scoring his harder, and on the third line for some of that, he averaged .77 ppg AND played defense. 

 

We are buying J. at his future peak. We have years ahead. 

 

And we don't get guys like that. We tried for Nash. He brushed us off like a dead gnat on his shoulder. Same with Hossa way back when he was a FA, and we made a play for Richards and Gaborik supposedly Carter. We don't get those guys. 

 

But entirely because we have Eric, (and Crosby and Malkin blocking) we got one. 

 

The future will tell.  This was not a great year for J. based on expectations. 

 

I contend that he was adjusting to his new team, role, linemates, etc. in a rather dark period where the d stunk and the team went into a funk. 

 

I predict he will break out next year and put up first line numbers. We shall see. I could be wrong.

Edited by remkin

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Stealth, I watched J very carefully, mainly in the last 25-ish games of the year. On TV its naturally a little harder to key in on a player's full ice game, but I saw all but one home game in person and carefully keyed on his overall game at PNC.

My take? It really wasn't pretty -- getting out muscled, out hustled, missing passes, quickly flicking the puck off his stick... it really was clear to me, at times, he really did not want to be out there (imo).  Now, maybe that's the good news... maybe he really can do more and maybe he will step up next year. But, lets face it, that's a lot of maybes.

Saying "IF" Sutter and J.Staal made the same is a 100% theoretical question.

"Who's better" is a function of how much they help their team WIN (and in today's NHL, that implies at their current/future salary).

For what its worth, when I got this thread poll started here, I voted "tie" but after carefully watching J and looking bigger picture (considering salary), I was prob being optimistic about Jordan.   Again, I hope what I saw from him at the end of last season was an outlier.

 

You just admitted you skipped the beginning of the season, when the team including J. Staal played great and only saw the end of the season when the team including J. Staal played bad.

 

And about the salary, JR basically said we're not really a budget team anymore, we're going to be sitting much closer to the ceiling next season. He said about 61 - 62 million out of 64. I know it doesn't change the hit that J. Staal's contract brings, but it's less handicapping than some are putting it out to be.

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I think a lot of people get blinded by +/-.

 

This guy was still 4th on our team in scoring.  This guy was 1 of 3 players to play every game this season.  This guy led our team in hits, had more hits than Corvo/McBain/Sangs combined.  

 

There were times this season where he reminded me of old Eric, which was disinterested.  He's not flashy, but he makes smart decisions, and put himself into good positions on the ice.  He and Tlusty are the best defensive forwards we have.  I maybe in the minority, but i say he deserves the A based on previous experiences, and he's more of a veteran than some other candidates (faulk, tlusty).

 

I'm not getting into too many specifics about why his +/- was low for reasons superdave said, the bottom line is outside the 1st line, the scoring was very inconsistent, which does equate to lower +/-.  For the record, +/- is just as much an offense stat as it is defense.  I also think it's a general indication of how well your team plays.  I mean Tarvaras is a "-" player but is an mvp candidate.  That also doesn't take in account all the empty-net situations he was on the ice for or goals that were scored outside his control (goaltending, dmen, skinner, etc).  When Ward was still playing, he was about an even player.  If it weren't for the -18, would this thread even be up?

 

Even though he's still overpaid, i have full confidence in Jordan.

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How did you have time to critique JStaal when you were honed in on Ward?

 

 

Stealth, I watched J very carefully, mainly in the last 25-ish games of the year. On TV its naturally a little harder to key in on a player's full ice game, but I saw all but one home game in person and carefully keyed on his overall game at PNC.

 

I think that answers that. Had to find a new whipping boy. At least his story lines up.

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He averaged .77 ppg his last two years in Pittsburgh, which is 63 points over a full season. Much of that centering the checking line.

His last two years for the Penguins he was 1st and 2nd line.  One year both Crosby and Malkin were out while Staal did not play until the Winter Classic.  The Penguins only had all 3 for 2 games.

 

The next year Crosby was out most of the season and when he was in the line up he was on the 3rd line.

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