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I can't speak for anybody else but I can't read long posts that are written in huge blocks of text.  I normally just ignore those.

 

Paragraphs are your friend.

 

Please use them. :pray:

Edited by coastal_caniac

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I can't speak for anybody else but I can't read long posts that are written in huge blocks of text.  I normally just ignore those.

 

Paragraphs are your friend.

 

Please use them. :pray:

Sorry about that! Haha. I fixed it and hopefully it is more readable. Will work on that in future going back and looking at it I didnt even want to re read it. lol

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Agree that stripping the "C" is nuts. I know it's been done, but if the brass does that then that is the final nail in their coffin.

 

So we have an inconsistent player who, when on, is arguably our best player. We have made him the face of the franchise. We have given him the keys and made him KIng. We have brought in his brother and installed him as Prince before he ever stepped out onto the ice. JR did all that. 

 

So the plan is to publicly humiliate him? So now he'll shape up? I really don't think E. is a prima donna personality, but anyone after years of being treated a certain way gets accustomed to it. You want to see E. play more "down" games? Take the "C". Then he will have even less trade value. (CAVEAT: the one exception would be if E. himself wanted to give it up and focus on better hockey. Not sure that this really happens though).

 

I don't like the idea of trading Skinner because he is so young still. But at least he should have mega trade value. He is soft on the puck and timid on the boards, especially in the d zone. But oddly when he has the puck in the O zone, it sticks to him like glue. In the end though, he and Lindholm could be a formidable duo for a lot of years, and Skinner is still college age. I would really hate to see him go. That is a lot of future points leaving that will be very very hard to replace.

 

Any trade of E. has to include the value returned. I don't know because I am not there, but when we won the Cup, E. was a kid. He was the up and coming star, but not the locker room heart and soul. That was Brindy, but also some other strong veterans. But since E. has been THE man, this team has struggled. Is it on him? I honestly do not know, but he has been there. He was there during the bad last couple years of Brindy's decline, he was there during all of the losing since, and he has been the one constant fixture in a chronically awful PP.

 

He is the face of the franchise. He has been bowed and catered to and asked to lead us to the promised land. Someone, high up, needs to A. decide if that has been the problem B. If it is, see what kind of mega deal might be on the table. Pull the trigger or not.

 

Eric has become king. If you are going to kill the king, you don't miss. You don't strip the C. 

 

There are two things that worry me about such a desperate move. One: we keep trading guys who's value has declined. Two: kind of a carryover from A, who are we going to get back? If you have a top line center you like, or a top line winger you like, you keep him. If you have a big name guy (like Nash last year) that wants out, does he want to come here? 

 

I would think by now that JR and company have tried every trick in the book to motivate E. to bring the A game every night. JR has pretty much laid his job in Eric's hands. No other trick will work. E. might change....but we pretty much know what he will be. (That is far from all bad, but it is what it is).

 

Last thing is this: IF IF IF (please note the IF) if E. is part of the problem, (more power than the coach, at some level knows he can do what he wants, not a great captain, stuff we don't see, etc) and if JR has basically let Muller know "you don't mess w/ Eric", then Eric needs to go (and JR probably too) and Muller might stay. IF Muller goes and Eric stays, it will be very tough for then next coach to deal w/ E. He will have remained through 4 coaches at that point, and will have little doubt who the King is.

Edited by remkin

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Sorry about that! Haha. I fixed it and hopefully it is more readable. Will work on that in future going back and looking at it I didnt even want to re read it. lol

 

Thanks Kopes.

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does not consistent winning boil down to a coach who knows how to get the best of each player on his team,  John Wooden won a boat-load of national titles for UCLA.   It was said of him that he could take his and beat yours and he he could take yours and beat his.  So many issues with the Canes boils down to a lack of consistent coaching.  And just who is respondible for fixing that mess?

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Thanks Kopes.

Let me add my thanks also, as well as say that my referring to you as a "good guy" was my not so subtle way of offering you a "peace pipe" for the apparent misunderstandings that evolved. If you do want it, than that's ok too.

 

As to the discussions following my missive, i definately think that you all make very good sense in pointing out the "lack of identity" as the bottom line. That being said, the next logical question to pose is WHY?

 

In order to answer this conundrum, it seems logical to observe that one has 4 levels to examine, starting with players. pkling a few messages back postulates that if one has a Defined System, than you insert players that fit that system, ergo, not alter the system to fit the players. I ask, How many years have we heard this same mantra, System, System, System for all 3 coaches that we've been "blessed " with? Further, if all are aware that we are basically systemless, and here I'm pointing to the coaches as well as the GM, than why are we not fixing the problem?

 

As rem just pointed out, we do have very quality players, and I also believe that simply attempting to embarass them back into conformity to increase their production is a temporizing measure, equivalent to beating a kid in their younger years only to watch them grow into manhood when the tables turn. Surely these are proud athletes, whose driving ambition is their individual quest for Stanley, but that has to be focused thru effective systematics to mold into team work.

 

The next level of scrutiny is to the coaching staff. IMHO, this is the 1st echelon where failure rests, NOT because these are not good coaches, but I feel are somewhat limited in their collective experiences to fashion out their "system" from the raw materials at hand. Muller and his co-coaches are, i believe, on board with what they're attempting to achieve, but either do not have the exact players to effect that vision, or cannot effectively use the ones they have.

 

Finally, we now get to JR, and this is where I have written and believe that the "rubber hits the road". Is Jim Rutherford a "bad" GM, no. He's performed several amazing miracles with astute picks. Were there failures, sure thing, but much like his protege, E Staal, when he's on, hes unparalleled. To me, Rutherford's Achilles tendon is his heart(which ironically could be a strong suit for OUR MARKET). It's obvious that he has favorites whom he does not let go easily resulting in his infamous "recycling" as well as compromising terms of several contracts. Thus, he cannot make decisive decisions FOR THE GOOD OF THE TEAM.

 

Now, the one final layer to examine is the most difficult of all, and that's Karmanos. What exactly are the owner's goals. Early in the formative years, I'd have said that they were vindictive, calculated to stick it to the Illitch Family. Now, I'm not sure. I mean, if he's intent in an altruistic endeavor to establish a presence in Carolina, surely he's got to recognize that the lack of depth that plagues this team must start with inadequate scouting. To me, for a competitive team, one must have either a strong Jr system, or tons of money to "buy" your veteran players on the open market. I suggest that we have neither.

 

I end this apologetically for such a lengthy piece, and according to my friend(I hope), Kopes2718, I've just "rehashed" much of which has been previously stated. IT, and you, are my cathartics for another dissapointment.

Edited by KJUNKANE

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Clearly I am suggesting that JR has made E. his boy and like an owner's son, oh, bad example now that I think about it, well like most owner's son's, JR has backed up Staal over: Brindy, Mo, and Muller to name a few.

 

That said, D.Dreger is plugged in. Even so much as used directly by GM's to get word out. If he is throwing E's name out there, that really could signal that the "JR-E.Staal or bust" thing is fraying.

 

Also, I don't know how desperate JR ever feels about his job given his ownership stake, but one would think that the only way JR keeps his job is a major move below him. Usually that's the coach, but typically a GM gets three coaches and the next one would be JR's 4th since the cup....blockbuster trade? Hmmm. 

Edited by remkin

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There have been three coaches since the Cup. Lavi obviously had success until the team either tuned him out, or the intense coaching style burned itself out. Mo came back and had some short term success, but his defense first message was tuned out. Now Muller's message of accountability seem to have fallen on deaf ears. The one consistent thing these coaches had was E Staal was the captain. I agree that he is our best player, but it looks like he gives less than his best effort quite often. It might be time to change the leadership on the ice as well as behind the bench.

does not consistent winning boil down to a coach who knows how to get the best of each player on his team,  John Wooden won a boat-load of national titles for UCLA.   It was said of him that he could take his and beat yours and he he could take yours and beat his.  So many issues with the Canes boils down to a lack of consistent coaching.  And just who is respondible for fixing that mess?

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KJUN,

 

Peace pipe accepted. I think you make some very valid points. JR does have a big heart that grows three times its size when he can recycle, I have met him on several occasions and is a very nice and pleasant person. He comes from an era (playing in the old time hockey age) where deals could be done over a nice handshake and a beer.It is this mentality that really worked out well for him in his early Gm days and players have never talked about how awful the organization is, they always say how great their expericence off the ice was. This place is like "home". 

 

The only problem with that is the times have changed and while I like the idea of a good "hockey trade" its just no longer as realistic as it once was. He is an old school GM playing ball in a pool of young buc sharks, has no one else noticed that the older GMs around the league are being dropped more and more? This team needs a facelift. From the ground up, and while I agree we have some great players and depth guys I mean Gerbe for one its our "core" that needs to be shifted.

 

I am sad to say but Eric Staals time has come. It is honestly what is best for this team at the moment. Cam Ward is also in the same boat which is depressing as I do believe they have given so much to this team, but in the way its being coached and run there needs to be an end of one era and the beginning of another one. Thats all I got on this one.

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I can't speak for anybody else but I can't read long posts that are written in huge blocks of text. I normally just ignore those.

Paragraphs are your friend.

Please use them. :pray:

Fixed. :) Edited by Pkling40

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My somewhat cynical belief is that PK will be content with having the Canes in Raleigh for as long as the tax laws allow him to lose money on the franchise. Once this changes, and the Canes continue to lose money, it will be move city

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This just makes me sick- http://triblive.com/sports/penguins/5739183-74/jokinen-summer-free#axzz2wgU8hcLp

If muller is preaching a "defense first" system then why the trade of a player who plays that way?

I will say it again trade all the players you want- heck blow the team up - it will not change 1 thing!

The players are being completely mismanaged!

Not to mention -Eric may just be sick of being on a LOSING team...

Go ahead trade him then every time you watch him play somewhere else and he is lighting it up fool yourself by saying "he needed a change of scenery"

Examples:

Gleason- Is best when playing a physical game- leafs knew they needed that - he is now a "solid" player in their lineup- why? Because the leafs are playing to his strength - he was not being used that way here...he didn't suck the coaching of him did.

Jussi- Buried on the 3rd 4th line with players not of his caliber - put on the second line in Pitts and he all the sudden becomes a star? No- again Pitts realized he is a strong second line winger and played that way he comes alive again- it's his game.

Rutuu- geeze let me stop I think we all get the point...

It's not the players that suck- the "change of scenery" excuse really means "change of system"

As for the "friends" (coaches) and former teammates of Muller that have been brought in... They are not getting the job done either!

For those saying this is on the players on the ice - I completely disagree.

The players look like they have no idea from game to game what "system" they are playing.

The coaches look unwilling to make adjustments during a game- this "stick to the system" is BS the great coaches are able to read the game and adjust on the fly.

Something is very wrong - how do you have the Jan. We had then fall totally off the face of the earth?

If it's Muller calling the shots-sorry to say he has missed the mark!

If it's JR or the owners then they are not on the same page as the coaching staff .

Skinner/ Gerbe / Patty / Eric / Manny have stopped scoring - so are we to conclude they all suck- trade them...really? And just who are we bringing in that "fits the system" ?

Getting down off the soap box-

LETS GO?

Edited by Pkling40

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Well, if that makes you sick ... this should put you down .... Brandon Sutter among best defensive centers

in the league using advanced metrics:

http://blog.triblive.com/chipped-ice/2014/02/05/rossi-marshall-factors-in-sutters-shutdown-defense/#axzz2wgpbBvBe

Thanks- I was trying to forget Brandon :(

LOL

Edited by Pkling40

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That and losing our #8 overall pick and a decent defensive prospect, does make you wonder if we would or would not have gotten J. the next year in FA w/out giving any of that up.

 

His salary aside, imagine if we had E, J, B. Sutter down the middle, and our #8 pick from a couple of years ago and Doumalin in the wings right now.

 

OK, now I'm sad. OK, sadder.

Edited by remkin

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That and losing our #8 overall pick and a decent defensive prospect, does make you wonder if we would or would not have gotten J. the next year in FA w/out giving any of that up.

 

His salary aside, imagine if we had E, J, B. Sutter down the middle, and our #8 pick from a couple of years ago and Doumalin in the wings right now.

 

OK, now I'm sad. OK, sadder.

 

Considering Jordan wanted to play here, I believe we could have gotten him in free agency the following year. Good old JR! 

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It seems to be a foregone conclusion that Cam will be traded in the offseason. We'll probably end up eating 1/3 of his contract. I hope he brings at least one of the pieces we are sorely missing (a top 4 defenseman, a solid 2-way 3rd line center or a winger for the top two lines who has some size and physicality). As for Khudobin, I like him but wait and see if you still see him in the same light after he is asked to play 70 plus games each of the next 2 years.

Now the board also seems to want to trade Eric. I am frustrated by his inconsistency like everyone else, but it will be very hard to bring in and retain an elite talent, which Eric has been and still can be. And trading his salary will devalue what we get in return coming off this season and last summer's injury.

My belief is that what we have seen in spurts this year (but not by the group as a whole at the same time) is that we have 5 definite top six forwards(Staals, Semin,Skinner & Lindholm) but we need to settle on a system and bring in a coaching staff that can motivate these players to play hard every night, and figure out the right combinations to get consistent production. If Tlusty can be re-signed, he could be that 6th forward, or perhaps play on the 3rd line with Gerbe and a center to be named later. Malhotra and Dwyer give us the core of a strong 4th line. So rather than blow it all up, I would like to see us get rid of Muller and staff, and bring in a coach who is a proven motivator who can best slot what I think are some nice pieces into his system.

For those who want to can JR, I am not opposed, but do consider that he has had successes as well as failures in talent acquisition, and has generally operated with internal constraints on what he can spend significantly lower than most of his competition. Also, when seeking free agents the small market stigma is always going to take us out of the running for most of the most highly sought players. Of course, JR is responsible for the coaches we have had over the past 8 years, but it may be more challenging than people know to get a proven veteran coach or a strong up and comer to come to Raleigh given past budget constraints and other issues with bringing in the players that coac might want. Whether JR goes or not, I'll be very disappointed if we do not have a complete system-wide overhaul in our coaching staff.

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I think Ray Shero would have dealt Jordan to the Rangers instead - and JR didn't want to take that chance.

Plus, the "C" word might have reared it's ugly head.  No, not that C-word, the other one ... collusion.

 

I think it was partly this and part a lot of JR wanting to make a push for the playoffs right away. We should have been golden last year with JStaal and Semin coming aboard, but then Ward went down and our defense and goaltending depth was really exposed. This year we improved the D and really should have had better goaltending and the same forward production. Both goalies go down.All our top players are having statistically poor seasons. It really doesn't make a lot of sense. We don't ever seem to get consistent production out of anyone. Eric is streaky, Skinner is streaky, the whole team is inconsistent. As easy as it is to blame the players, it's just hard to when it's the entire team. 

 

I'm still hanging out on Remkin Island and I'm just going to let whatever happens this offseason happen. 

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I know we have Jordan until the end of time. How long is Eric still under contract? And Skinner?

Eric for another two years after this season. Skinner for another five I believe. The main site has the"contract chart" under "Team." There is also Capgeek for more detailed information.

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