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Trade Deadline Discussion Thread - 3/5 @ 3pm

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I wonder what kind of package we could get from Edmonton for Eric Staal?  If Kesler is worth and young established player, a top prospect, and a draft pick,  Eric should be worth a randsome.  The Oilers want to add veterans and win now so it might be a perfect fit.  I wonder if we could get something like RNH, Nurse, and a 1st?  I would take that in a minute!

 

If we trade one Staal and keep one Staal, we should keep Jordan.  He is still very young, he is very versitile, and Eric would probably bring a better return.

 

I really think we should blow this thing up and start fresh (including coach and GM).  Trade everybody we can for draft picks and prospects.  We will probably stink next year, but next year is a good year for that.  http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=160293

 

That would be a hard deal to pass up, i'm not going to lie.  But i think, if Nashville were up for it, a deal that center around Jordan for Shea wouldn't be that bad of a deal for all involved.  I think we should be doing a talent for talent swap right now.

 

Even though we are going down hard right now, i think this board tends to overreact to bad times.  I still don't think we're that far from being regular playoff visitors.  I just think we're misguided more than bad, and that really comes from our management.

 

I think, if the season continues at it current pace, we are in for an extremely interesting offseason.

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Raven, I'm no fan of Adam Gold, but if this year's production is what we have to look forward to from our "stars", where is the fault with his logic? My take is this team has talented players who could be the nucleus of a good team, but lack heart and seem satisfied to accept mediocrity or losing. The team needs a culture change, including for sure bringing in new blood. I'm all for taking the C from Eric. Would Sekera be in the running? Don't know about his leadership skills, but he seems to be our most consistent everyday player. And yes I think Manny deserves the A without regard to his ice time. I seem to recall another 4th line center that wore a A for us: Kevyn Adams in '06.

Taking the C from Eric will not happen. The only way he is no longer Captain is if he is not on the team. Eric getting and keeping the C was part of his deal, and stripping him of it would embarrass him. Not that he doesn't deserve some embarrassment and accountability - but JR isn't going to do that, and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he is contractually prevented from doing it.

 

Somebody else (legend-1, I think) mentioned how Jordan should not have gotten the A along with his contract. Eric should not have gotten the C that way, either. This is a much bigger deal than anybody seems to acknowledge, not just here but around the league: making captaincies part of contract negotiations takes the decision out of the players' hands and gives it to people in the front office, who have almost no idea of the team dynamics on a day-in, day-out basis.

 

And Eric Staal is a player, not a captain - as sure as he's a wing, not a center. More than any other single factor, management's willingness to let Eric tell them where he will play - rather than them telling him - has contributed to this team's mediocrity. 

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the biggest issue for the canes is very simple. their minor league and scouting system simply does not produce enough talent. succesful teams today have a supply of good young talent on entry level contracts that allows the team to pay free agents. untill the canes clean house in charlotte nothing will change in carolina. there is no one pushing the overpaid vets for ice time............



Taking the C from Eric will not happen. The only way he is no longer Captain is if he is not on the team. Eric getting and keeping the C was part of his deal, and stripping him of it would embarrass him. Not that he doesn't deserve some embarrassment and accountability - but JR isn't going to do that, and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he is contractually prevented from doing it.

 

Somebody else (legend-1, I think) mentioned how Jordan should not have gotten the A along with his contract. Eric should not have gotten the C that way, either. This is a much bigger deal than anybody seems to acknowledge, not just here but around the league: making captaincies part of contract negotiations takes the decision out of the players' hands and gives it to people in the front office, who have almost no idea of the team dynamics on a day-in, day-out basis.

 

And Eric Staal is a player, not a captain - as sure as he's a wing, not a center. More than any other single factor, management's willingness to let Eric tell them where he will play - rather than them telling him - has contributed to this team's mediocrity. 

 

 

whatever it takes?????? i think they do use that slogan...... whatever it takes to make a mid april tee time.............

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The problem isn't necessarily trying to build around the Staals, the problem, well two things, first is JR has been trying, very unsuccessfully, to recreate the 2006 team.  Our blueline has next to no grit.  The big emphasis last summer was "to make our defense tougher to play against."  Well, i think, while our defense was improved over last season, i don't think we accomplished that statement at all.  No physical player back there except one.  And it just baffles me the fact Komisarek has only played half the season.  To me, the only dmen who should be penciled in next season is Sekera and Faulk.  Which leads me to my next point.

 

Too many years, players have been penciled into the line up.  Too many bargain players, and too top heavy.  Too much inconsistency.  Carolina has not had a complete team since 2009.  We're either missing a 2nd line center, or a 3rd line center, or a top 6 forward, or a bottom 6 forward, or a linemate for Eric.  We've lacked veterans.  You see the jolt the hurricanes got immediately when Manny started playing.  We made marginal moves in the offseason.  JR went in with the mentality of the main reason our team didn't perform well last year was the blueline and injuries, instead of saying, "this team is always suffering injuries and proving it can't overcome those injuries, and maybe my plan for our blueline isn't working, so let's try a different approach."

 

Going forward, if I were the hurricanes, i would:

 

1. Admit defeat on Cam Ward.  We all love Cam.  I've met him many times, and i've met dozens of professional athletes in NBA, NHL, NFL, and Cam and Ruutu are the nicest ones i've ever met.  But kind of like the Gleason situation, his time is up here.  I, like the rest of you, don't know what's going on behind the scenes, so i don't know what the market is for him.  But i'd get anything i can for him.  Maybe him to the Oilers for one of their forwards or something, but he and his entire contract have to go.  I've come to grips with the fact we won't use a compliance buyout with him.

 

2. Admit defeat on Tuomo Ruutu.  See the first 3 or 4 sentences on Cam.  Depending on what happens today and tomorrow, he will/should be our 1st compliance buyout.

 

3.  I'd say before the next round of free agency begins, we could/should trade at ONE of our forwards that make over $5mil.  And unfortunately, it's a game of numbers, and if i had a choice, it would probably be Jordan.  I would either get another 2nd line center, or a top 2 dmen.  Thinking Jordan/Kesler swap, Jordan/Webber swap, or something along those lines.

 

4.  I would, under no circumstance short of a trade for crosby/malkin/ovechkin/giroux, trade away our 1st round pick.  We have a history of doing it, so i just want my opinion to be documented before draft time happens.

 

5.  I would at least listen to offers on everybody, not act obviously.  We've seen it too many times where bubble teams do too much too soon, and the next thing you know, they're bottom of the barrel.  Florida and Buffalo were both playoff teams not that long ago, i DO NOT want to be lumped in with those jokers.

Jordan isn't going anywhere without Eric, and if he does, what little effort we get from Eric will become zero. The Brothers Staal have this team over a barrel. The question is whether JR is willing to admit it and extricate us. We've got the Sedins - without the upside. 

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Getting back to Luke's point about JR, it is something I've been pondering a bit.

 

I think JR is a decent trader. We are a small market team and we have certain fundamental disadvantages, like it or not. For years JR worked under the El Cheapo model also. The small market aspect suggests that we probalby have to give out a couple of NTC's more than a New York Rangers. 1. To get the guy to stay 2. Because if he leaves we are not in a position to quickly refill the pantry since FA's aren't lining up to come here. Same with slightly big contracts.

 

We can whine about Semin, but that year there were two prime elite forwards, Parise (whom everyone wanted) and Semin. Plus, JR only signed Semin for one year at that point.

 

The Staals? Well they are dang good hockey players. Are they natural leaders of men? Maybe not. I would love to have Eric centering our first line for a long time if he had first line wingers, and someone else was Captain. I guess that's the crux. With both Staals here, how do you unring that bell?

 

I digress.

 

My point is that JR is on balance a good horse trader. He is good at picking up key guys too, though not always finding the exact right piece *cough* third line center* cough. But maybe JR is just not a great day to day manager either.

 

That's why I think JR should make at least one big move at the deadline. Move at least one big name, maybe two. Then bring in a new coaching team (assistants and all) and a new GM. JR move upstairs. He can still weigh in on trades, but let the contracts and day to day stuff go to the new guy. The new guy needs to pick his coaching staff too.

 

I don't personally want to wait 3 more years for draft picks to get to form. This does not say that we can't pick up some draft picks. Just not all draft picks. And frankly we need first rounders. Sure a mix of picks and players, but I want to watch this team next year.

 

The worst thing that could happen now is JR small ball. Make some moves. Go out strong.

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At least Luke has the soapbox to say what many of us here have been posting: massive changes are needed if the organization is going to survive long term. Fan favorites need to be traded for the market can provide. Feelings will be hurt regardless. This season can be compared to the many cars that ran off the road in last night's ice storm. The franchise is in the ditch and massive changes are needed to make it road worthy again.

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Rem, I agree with your statements except this one: 

JR move upstairs. He can still weigh in on trades, but let the contracts and day to day stuff go to the new guy. The new guy needs to pick his coaching staff too. JR needs to go altogether. We all know *edit* rolls down hill. If he still has the power to weigh in on trades, he will bias the new guy.

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It is time for a complete rebuild.  We are just not close to being competitive.  We might be close to becoming an 8th seed, but we haven't even managed that since this year's graduating seniors were in 7th grade!  The time for a partial rebuild was when Gleason and Ruutu were set to be free agents.  They should have been traded at that time.  If they wanted to come back and we wanted them back, they could have signed as free agents.  We have not compiled the assets to keep the ship afloat. 

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Getting back to Luke's point about JR, it is something I've been pondering a bit.

 

I think JR is a decent trader. We are a small market team and we have certain fundamental disadvantages, like it or not. For years JR worked under the El Cheapo model also. The small market aspect suggests that we probalby have to give out a couple of NTC's more than a New York Rangers. 1. To get the guy to stay 2. Because if he leaves we are not in a position to quickly refill the pantry since FA's aren't lining up to come here. Same with slightly big contracts.

 

We can whine about Semin, but that year there were two prime elite forwards, Parise (whom everyone wanted) and Semin. Plus, JR only signed Semin for one year at that point.

 

The Staals? Well they are dang good hockey players. Are they natural leaders of men? Maybe not. I would love to have Eric centering our first line for a long time if he had first line wingers, and someone else was Captain. I guess that's the crux. With both Staals here, how do you unring that bell?

 

I digress.

 

My point is that JR is on balance a good horse trader. He is good at picking up key guys too, though not always finding the exact right piece *cough* third line center* cough. But maybe JR is just not a great day to day manager either.

 

That's why I think JR should make at least one big move at the deadline. Move at least one big name, maybe two. Then bring in a new coaching team (assistants and all) and a new GM. JR move upstairs. He can still weigh in on trades, but let the contracts and day to day stuff go to the new guy. The new guy needs to pick his coaching staff too.

 

I don't personally want to wait 3 more years for draft picks to get to form. This does not say that we can't pick up some draft picks. Just not all draft picks. And frankly we need first rounders. Sure a mix of picks and players, but I want to watch this team next year.

 

The worst thing that could happen now is JR small ball. Make some moves. Go out strong.

Good post, remkin. JR is a good horse trader, and I think (hope) a deal that packages the Staals is not off the table - though I fear his allegiance to them is too strong. Skinner and Lindholm are the future. The strides Skins has made since his concussions to adapt his play and skate with his head up are extremely difficult to make - but he found a way. Meanwhile, after six years of trying to learn it, Eric still struggles at the dot.

 

I've got to say, as a player, if I'm skating out there every night and getting all jazzed up by the (admittedly great) atmosphere at the PNC and I'm primed and ready to go - then we lose the opening face-off AGAIN - oy. It's the hockey equivalent of playing outfield and watching your pitcher serve up hanging curves.

 

There is no question that Eric is highly talented. I just don't think he's interested anymore, and while a change of scene might not only help him - and come back to bite us! - he's had every opportunity to lead this team, and at some point you have to accept that it's not happening. 

Edited by top-shelf-1

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This from Spector:

 

NEWSOBSERVER.COM: Luke DeCock believes it’s time to blow up the Hurricanes roster. Noting the difficulty in moving players with bloated contracts (Alex Semin) and no-trade clauses (Tuomo Ruutu), he suggests management should see what they can get for Jeff Skinner, Cam Ward, Ron Hainsey and Jiri Tlusty. He also calls upon them to see if there is a market for Semin and Ruutu.

 

 

SPECTOR’S NOTE: It’s been five years since they last made the playoffs. Barring a major run down the stretch they won’t make it this season. Time for a major shakeup, and maybe a management change.

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If we get a new GM (Ron Francis), it should definitely happen before the draft starts, as I think that should be his first acquisition of his regime.

 

I'm neither here or there on the coaching situation.  I definitely think this team should be better than they currently are, but i also think Muller has been giving a fully functional roster.  I mean, if you don't have a choice but to put Dwyer on a scoring line, that shouldn't be indicative of the coach doing a bad job, but management doing a bad job.

 

If we decide to rebuild, then fully rebuild, but have a plan.  This team said after the 09-10 season that it would rebuild, but the only thing that consisted of was getting Jeff Skinner.  I would love to give the current core another year or two under new management to see if that improves anything.

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I see a few posts here where some are calling for Jordon to be traded for Shea Weber.  Thats a joke.  Weber just won gold, while Jordon was at home watching on TV.  To get a D Man like Weber will take Jordon plus, plus. 

 

The Canes are at the point where young top gun talent aren't going to be interested in coming here because they want to win now, not be middle of the road or worse.  Skinners probably praying he'll get traded because he see's this team as nothing more than a 2-4 year rebuild job. He's ready for a prime time northern market team where he will have line stability and not the constant dart throwing lines that the Canes do.

 

Khudobin should sign a two year deal here and go mano a mano against Ward (who is worth hardly anything now on the market).  NHL is deep in goalies now and Khudobin will get plenty of work here and then be an unrestricted FA.

 

More than anything JR has to go.  Team needs new direction and its not going to come from him.

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the biggest issue for the canes is very simple. their minor league and scouting system simply does not produce enough talent. succesful teams today have a supply of good young talent on entry level contracts that allows the team to pay free agents. untill the canes clean house in charlotte nothing will change in carolina. there is no one pushing the overpaid vets for ice time............

 

 

whatever it takes?????? i think they do use that slogan...... whatever it takes to make a mid april tee time.............

whalers66, at times, when I can stay somewhat unimpassioned, and skim thru some of these obviously passionate solutions to correcting our teams woes, it amuses me to think that so many are calling apparently for trading away players for "picks". Then there are some that point to Buffalo's supposed golden position of having what 10 picks in the top 2 rounds of '14 and "15 drafts? Is this a joke? Do those who have written this really think that our team, with it's borderline competent scouting staff, demonstrated brilliantly thru many years by our inability to count on substantial help from our AHL PLAYERS,think that taking crap shoot chances with drafting will get this team into the playoff position we all desire?

 

Harkening to your comment, about minor league and scouting for this team, I really think that any trades, and I too think that there need to be several, should consider that trades for draft picks need to strongly consider the success, or rather the failure rate, that is attendant to a "draft". These picks, no matter what the round , are obviously dependent on the expertise of the group making them. I for one have not been very impressed with our group, altho, it could be argued that there might be recent trending to a slightly better outcome. Despite this, drafting is certainly frought with tremendous chance of failure.

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This from Spector:

 

NEWSOBSERVER.COM: Luke DeCock believes it’s time to blow up the Hurricanes roster. Noting the difficulty in moving players with bloated contracts (Alex Semin) and no-trade clauses (Tuomo Ruutu), he suggests management should see what they can get for Jeff Skinner, Cam Ward, Ron Hainsey and Jiri Tlusty. He also calls upon them to see if there is a market for Semin and Ruutu.

 

 

SPECTOR’S NOTE: It’s been five years since they last made the playoffs. Barring a major run down the stretch they won’t make it this season. Time for a major shakeup, and maybe a management change.

Sorry, but those of you who think DeCock is an expert on hockey stand up and shout?

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Honestly I wouldn't mind at all being in Buffalo's position right now.  They've made a complete organizational shift, from top to bottom.

 

Murray has compiled 10 picks in the first 2 rounds of the next 2 drafts.  Frigging 10.  And that could jump to 13 if they continue to trade out additional players like Moulson.  And if memory serves, they had 2 first round picks in 2013 and at least 3 in the second round.

 

JR should take note that building a team through the draft and developing players through your minor league affiliate shouldn't be such a low priority, given we have the smallest scouting staff in the league and a black hole in Charlotte ("the place where prospects go to die" - Mike Murphy 2013).

I was on the sabrespace board over the summer, and they were lamenting the season that was to be. I posted that at least their management could see the writing on the wall and plan ahead instead of continuously nibbling around the edges. They now have hope and we have very little. That black hole in Charlotte is the main issue. Can't evaluate talent past about midway the 2nd round or develop the ones they do draft.

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I see a few posts here where some are calling for Jordon to be traded for Shea Weber.  Thats a joke.  Weber just won gold, while Jordon was at home watching on TV.  To get a D Man like Weber will take Jordon plus, plus. 

 

I said it, and while it was just an example of the type of player we should get if we traded one of our top forward, i don't think it's a joke at all.  First, statistically speaking, and i repeat, statistically speaking, his numbers aren't very far from Sekera's.  He's far from old, but he's not as young as he used to be.  I'd say if this was propose like 2 or 3 seasons ago, i'd agree with your opinion.  And to bring up the elephant in the room, he has a very high salary for a very long period of time.  And given the fact he hasn't looked as good without Suter, and the fact Nashville's blueline has shown progress without his high level of play, no team is going to give them a king's ransom to acquire him.  In addition, although Jordan hasn't been the $6million man he was signed so far, he's still very young, and is a legit 2nd line center, and the type of player Nashville would probably be looking for, which is a big strong defensive-minded top 6 player.  We would probably still throw in a prospect and most likely a 2nd round pick, but it's not unreasonable.

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whalers66, at times, when I can stay somewhat unimpassioned, and skim thru some of these obviously passionate solutions to correcting our teams woes, it amuses me to think that so many are calling apparently for trading away players for "picks". Then there are some that point to Buffalo's supposed golden position of having what 10 picks in the top 2 rounds of '14 and "15 drafts? Is this a joke? Do those who have written this really think that our team, with it's borderline competent scouting staff, demonstrated brilliantly thru many years by our inability to count on substantial help from our AHL PLAYERS,think that taking crap shoot chances with drafting will get this team into the playoff position we all desire?

 

Harkening to your comment, about minor league and scouting for this team, I really think that any trades, and I too think that there need to be several, should consider that trades for draft picks need to strongly consider the success, or rather the failure rate, that is attendant to a "draft". These picks, no matter what the round , are obviously dependent on the expertise of the group making them. I for one have not been very impressed with our group, altho, it could be argued that there might be recent trending to a slightly better outcome. Despite this, drafting is certainly frought with tremendous chance of failure.

 

This is the best post i've read all season.  Post stanley cup, we haven't done bad with our 1st rounders sans 1 or 2 players, but i would not feel comfortable at all entrusting our immediate future with our development staff.

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Sorry, but those of you who think DeCock is an expert on hockey stand up and shout?

:thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  He did learn this year that there is not 4 quarters in a hockey game. :tripping:

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Sorry, but those of you who think DeCock is an expert on hockey stand up and shout?

Compared to who? Adam Gold? For the Triangle, Luke is the ONLY writer who calls it likes he sees it. The rest are way too polite, and unfortunately, like Gold, know absolutely nothing about hockey. 

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whalers66, at times, when I can stay somewhat unimpassioned, and skim thru some of these obviously passionate solutions to correcting our teams woes, it amuses me to think that so many are calling apparently for trading away players for "picks". Then there are some that point to Buffalo's supposed golden position of having what 10 picks in the top 2 rounds of '14 and "15 drafts? Is this a joke? Do those who have written this really think that our team, with it's borderline competent scouting staff, demonstrated brilliantly thru many years by our inability to count on substantial help from our AHL PLAYERS,think that taking crap shoot chances with drafting will get this team into the playoff position we all desire?

 

Harkening to your comment, about minor league and scouting for this team, I really think that any trades, and I too think that there need to be several, should consider that trades for draft picks need to strongly consider the success, or rather the failure rate, that is attendant to a "draft". These picks, no matter what the round , are obviously dependent on the expertise of the group making them. I for one have not been very impressed with our group, altho, it could be argued that there might be recent trending to a slightly better outcome. Despite this, drafting is certainly frought with tremendous chance of failure.

 

No, I have no confidence in JR, or our 3 full-time scouts, or Jeff Daniels to draft and develop players.  We've picked 50 players since the Cup.  Three of those are on the team.  Only 1 (Faulk) of those has spent anytime in Charlotte.

 

That's the joke.

 

The point is, it doesn't have to be a joke.  Go ask the Blues.

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I was on the sabrespace board over the summer, and they were lamenting the season that was to be. I posted that at least their management could see the writing on the wall and plan ahead instead of continuously nibbling around the edges. They now have hope and we have very little. That black hole in Charlotte is the main issue. Can't evaluate talent past about midway the 2nd round or develop the ones they do draft.

super_dave_1, I love this characterization, "nibbling around the edges"!1 Brilliant way to illustrate JR's methodology, and saddening for us fans, to be constantly treated to its elements.

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Compared to who? Adam Gold? For the Triangle, Luke is the ONLY writer who calls it likes he sees it. The rest are way too polite, and unfortunately, like Gold, know absolutely nothing about hockey. 

Although I risk being called a"hockey snob", that Kahuna was my point exactly. DeCock or Gold or either of those bombastic ESPN broadcasters I have to suffer thru on 99,9 on my drive in to each home game know absolutely nothing about the sport. At least Chantel, whom many have complained about since her 1st broadcasts, seems to be attempting to learn more. These others gloat about their basketball knowledge or some other sport, and seem to try to extrapolate from them to hockey.

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Were you here back when Mile Solarte was the ONLY guy on 680 (now 99.9) who would talk hockey? Talk about painful? That guy was a self proclaimed expert, but knew absolutely nothing about hockey. I called him out on the air one day, and absolutely pissed him off. He was talking about the Canes powerplay, and how Wesley was an important piece of that PP. Wesley was not even on the Canes PP at the time, 1st or 2nd unit. It was obvious the guy didn't watch the games. He was a Blackhawks fan from his days in Chicago and only pretended to follow the Canes. The guy was an idiot. 

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