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Canesfanforever

I feel Justified

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last year there was a lot of talk about who the canes were going to draft  , and i was on team nichushkin in case you all forgot . maybe some of you remember but i was for rutherford on drafting nichushkin and was expecting him to do so . 

 

then when the 5th pick in the 2013 draft came in all my hopes in what direction the team would be going in went yet again  the opposite direction   by rutherford drafting lindholm over nichushkin 

 

so when the choice was made i know a fair amount of canes fans like myself were upset  that we did not get the guy that we wanted and on the other side there were some canes fans that were happy with the choice  and then there were the fans that had no idea about the pick but were okay with the pick anyways cause they believe in rutherford 

 

despite how much talk  was leading up to the draft  on these forums , and despite how much talk about who would be a better fit for the team  , the canes ended up with lindholm over nichushkin  

 

so here is where i say i am justified in my stance 

 

valeri nichushkin 10th over all in the first round ,  56 games played ,  13 goals , 16 assist ,  29 points , a plus  17 

 

elias lindholm  5th over all in the first round ,  36 games played  , 4 goals ,  8 assists , 12 points ,a minus 9 

 

so in yesterdays game against dalas , nichushkin recorded an assist  over the carolina hurricanes with a beauty of a set up to tyler seguin in the first period .  

 

that would be 1 point more than lindholm got  in yesterdays game if you were wondering . 

 

let this be known to everyone ,  i have nothing against elias lindholm , in 10 or 12 years lindholm might end up as a great player for the hurricanes  in the future with his skill sets , his ability to read the ice and all . but in my opinion nichushkin is and always will be the better player . 

 

now i know i might sound foolish to some of you for saying i feel justified  in my position .   me being a canes fan and all but here is the thing  ,  i chalk it all up to knowing what is best for this team than some who are more or less informed about such things  in regards to hockey. 

 

so please tell me how i am wrong , how it was a risky move , how nichuskin is russian and how russians cant be trusted and all , cause last time i checked we so happen to have a russian on the team by the name of semin and most of you seem to be fine with him being on the team .  

 

please tell me how i am wrong about nichushkin and that it must of been something he said cause some how words speak louder than actions  or , tell me how i am wrong statistically ,  cause at the end of the day the guy i wanted scored on us  and the guy we got didnt score at all . 

 

is it possible to get a new general manager ? cause i am sick and tired of seeing jim rutherford make one bad choice after another when it comes drafting players ! 

Edited by Canesfanforever

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Lindholm  is going to be  a good player, its not like hes  gets  alot of minutes.. he will now..

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Nichushkin was passed over by 9 teams before being picked.  That's nine professional level general managers.  You are claiming to be better at player scouting than those GMs and their respective scouting departments?

 

Here's the bottom line.  Nichushkin had such an ego trip from the media boasting about his ability and potential that he started dictating his future to the NHL.  That didn't fly well with the GMs, who don't want some young hot-shot telling them how he was going to be managed.  So, they didn't take the risk and instead happily took 9 other guys who had good attitudes and wanted to earn their place instead of trying to intimidate themselves into a roster spot.  Have you ever tried to get a job by telling your interviewer that if they didn't give you the perps and benefits you wanted you'd go to a competing company?  See how long it takes for you to get hired with that kind of attitude.  The last thing JR wanted was another Anton Babchuk.

 

Lastly, it's hard to compare stats for two different players on different teams in different divisions in different conferences who play different styles and have different responsibilities.

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Tyler Seguin: GP:58 G:25 A:32 P:57

Jamie Benn: GP:60 G:23 A:31 P:54

Nichushkin has played on the first line for most of the season, when he hasn't he doesn't produce. This was said by the Team Russian coach that said "when not playing on the first line, he is unstable." I'm guessing that roughly translates into inconsistent. Just before the Olympics he was a healthy scratch.

Lindholm seems to play with new linemates every night, and today was his first game on the first line, and Tlusty and Staal are no Seguin and Benn. Lindholm started the season on the fourth line and over time worked his way up, but he still has not played with productive players. Our whole team has struggled offensively.

Using stats to compare these players is pointless.

This isn't to knock Nichushkin, he shows flashes of dominate play. I'll also state that when the poll was asked who the Canes should draft, I picked Nichushkin originally so this isn't meant to put down Nichushkin. He is going to be good.

I've also said that I think because of his size and style, that I expect Nichushkin to be more of a factor in the first year or two. Even then I expect Lindholm will not be a stat guy, but a two-way productive winner with superior playmaking skills.

Having watched every Canes game and a decent amount of Nichushkin, I have no concerns. I will say that a Benn, Seguin, Nichushkin line could be one of the best in the league as they are all young talented players.

I doubt Lindholm will get to play with that kind of talent and in terms of stat comparisons it could get ugly. But as we know (at least some of us know), there is WAY more to playing the game than stats.

Also, as far as needing an impact player now, you never draft for one or two years, you draft (hopefully) for 10-15. Anyone who thinks that drafting Nichushkin would have us in a playoff spot is fooling themselves.

I'm a fanboy, and I still believe Lindholm will be an impact player that does what is needed to win once he fills out/gains experience. Nothing I have seen this year changes that.

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Both players on are on the first year of ELC's

 

I don't watch Nichuskin on a nightly basis, but I do watch Lindholm.

 

He's not a liability on the ice and he makes sweet passes. He's pretty good on the boards and he never looks out of his element on a shift, on both ends of the ice.

 

I'm not complaining.

Edited by coastal_caniac

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This team is not in the playoffs this year if we took Nich instead of Lindolm. 

 

Which guy is better is not a one year proposition. 

 

Comparing guys when they're 18-19 is like comparing butterflies when they're caterpillars. 

 

Long run I don't think we'll be sad we have Lindholm.

 

Anyway, too depressed shuttering windows on the Island to say more....

Edited by remkin

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So Nichuskin has roughly double the points that Lindholm has but 20 more games played and he got most of those playing on the top line and probably gets significantly more ice time per game. I don't even see how you can compare the two statistically given the huge difference in their chances to be productive. I'll be patient with Lindy, kid's got a great attitude and you can see that he could be something special in the future.

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You know, when I watched him in the Olympics, and then in Dallas, I just have thought, "Wow, he really is just like the new Malkin".  If that ends up being the case long term, you are 100% right.  Certainly now you seem to be right, and I deny you none of your rights to feed crow to anyone who deserves it.  You win so far.

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You know, when I watched him in the Olympics, and then in Dallas, I just have thought, "Wow, he really is just like the new Malkin".  If that ends up being the case long term, you are 100% right.  Certainly now you seem to be right, and I deny you none of your rights to feed crow to anyone who deserves it.  You win so far.

 

thats the thing though , i was hoping  i would be wrong  going into this season . i really did hope that i could look back and say to myself  , man was i wrong about nichushkin  and lindholm  cause in the end of the day i want nothing but the best for the carolina hurricanes  , and even with my doubts about certain players or coachs  i would love nothing more than to play the ignorant fool on the internet and be happy with how the canes are doing .   but some times that just does not happen . and in the case of the hurricanes it just dont happen enough for all of our sakes . 

Edited by Canesfanforever

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thats the thing though , i was hoping  i would be wrong  going into this season . i really did hope that i could look back and say to myself  , man was i wrong about nichushkin  and lindholm  cause in the end of the day i want nothing but the best for the carolina hurricanes  , and even with my doubts about certain players or coachs  i would love nothing more than to play the ignorant fool on the internet and be happy with how the canes are doing .   but some times that just does not happen . and in the case of the hurricanes it just dont happen enough for all of our sakes . 

 Funny, you took the one quasi-agreement post to reply to...

 

One year, two totally different positions within their respective organizations. Two totally different sets or line mates, two totally different styles of play, and two totally different TEAMS. If you don't think Lindholm would be a BEAST playing with Benn and Seguin, you're fooling yourself.

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 Funny, you took the one quasi-agreement post to reply to...

 

One year, two totally different positions within their respective organizations. Two totally different sets or line mates, two totally different styles of play, and two totally different TEAMS. If you don't think Lindholm would be a BEAST playing with Benn and Seguin, you're fooling yourself.

Absolutely Raven, how someone can look at stats of two players in hockey and not consider the players those players play with that produced those stats is beyond crazy.  You could have put anyone of us on that line at RW and we would have had a couple of goals and assists at this point.  

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i've read yalls arguments  and here is my reply ,  if what you all said was half as true as your claim it to be then  the differences in stats between both players would not be justified as a showing on skill level but as an example of who they play with   , granted nichushkin is not the biggest point getter among rookies this year nor is lindholm   and for their respective teams   ,  

 

but with that being said  points at the end of the day on who is a plus player vs who is a minus player does matter ,  and if you are producing  as a player regardless of who is your linemates then that means you are still producing  

 

i would take eric staal and skinner or semin over jamie benn  and tyler seguin any day of the week .  since our boys are that much better , now granted  lindholm has not played with these pairings as much as nichushkin has with his linemates , but is that to say it has much to do with how lindholm himself is playing in his first year as a player or how coach muller thinks of lindholm  ? 

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Canesfan: the numbers from this season show some preliminary support for your hypothesis.  But as already pointed out, it's not valid to project that results in one situation (Nich with Dallas) would have been the same in a different one (Nich with Canes).  These kids are so young we really won't know for sure which draft pick turns out to be better for at least 2 or 3 more years.  Bottom line: you may be right, but I'd suggest you not risk spraining your arm patting yourself on the back for a while yet. :grin:

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i would take eric staal and skinner or semin over jamie benn and tyler seguin any day of the week...now granted lindholm has not played with these pairings as much as nichushkin has with his linemates , but is that to say it has much to do with how lindholm himself is playing in his first year as a player or how coach muller thinks of lindholm ?

You say "points at the end of the day and +/- matter", but then you say Staal and Skinner are better than Seguin and Benn "any day of the week" and that they are "that much better."

Looking at the points and +/-, there is no comparison. Seguin and Benn are far superior.

As to comparing how much Lindholm has spent on the top line vs. Nichushkin, it is somewhere in the neighborhood of 45-50+ games vs. 2. Lindholm has also played fewer games overall, he hasn't even reached half of a season.

What does it say about Nichushkin that every time he was taken off the first line, he didn't produce. This was also stated by Team Russia coaches, that he is "not stable" when not on the first line.

Again, Nichushkin may end up being the better player, but using stats this season is nonsense. The two aren't comparable.

The only person qualified to make that judgment is someone who has watched every game by both players with a strict focus on them, and even then a video breakdown might be required.

If you look around here also, most people list Lindholm as one of their "keepers." Overall I get the impression that people are fairly satisfied with Lindholm, and having seen all of his games I don't see anything that I am overly concerned about, and a lot I like.

I still believe Lindholm will be a more complete player but I could be wrong. I also think that if the Seguin/Benn/Nichushkin line stays together, they could be a top line in the NHL for years to come. Benn is a monster, and Nichushkin could develop into one. Seguin is highly skilled.

Also to be fair, I thought Nichushkin was a real force at the Olympics and deserved much more playing time. I also posted about what an honor it is for Nichushkin to even be named an Olympian in the Olympics thread here.

The bottom line is that using stats this year is pointless, and the fact that they are two different types of players means that this will hold true in the future. In an article before the draft about which rookie will eventually win which award, Lindholm was picked for the Selke. A good two-way player/superior defensive forward has to be seen to be appreciated, its not going to show up on a stat sheet.

Right now they are Apples and Oranges, and I'm much more interested in where both guys are at in a few years.

.

Edited by Kyrule

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Let's introduce grapefruit as well.

 

Monahan in 54 games, 18G 8A 26P, -12 on a terrible team, and he was playing second line center.

 

I like Nichuskin and Monahan, but I'm seeing a very good player in Lindholm.  HIs defense impresses me, but the Swedes are known for that.  Last night was the first time he looked to me like a regular NHL'r.  He gets it.  And he makes sweet passes, as I mentioned previously. 

Edited by coastal_caniac

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Lindholm looks better and better every day.

 

Lindholm plays a more cerebral game. Nich is the Eric Cole. Lindholm could be the Forsberg. Of course that statement is just as wild as trying to compare these guys now. Sure, Nich could end up being Malkin. But...

 

Lindholm plays a two way, playmaking game, with a potential scoring touch. A complete game. Future Selke winner. It just seems logical that the adjustment to fleshing out this far more complex game will take time.

 

Nich is looking to get a step, barrel down the wing and bust a move at the end. Wrinse, repeat. Don't get me wrong. This can be exciting and if he can add a couple of other moves and dimensions to his game (as Cole did during his best years), this is a guy you want on your team. But...

 

Linholm is looking to make the best play every time and in every location he has the puck. He is that key guy that can make all of his teammates better. The kind of player who might finish a year with 30 goals and 60 assists, and play defense to boot. Of course I'm projecting that on him, but if he does, that would be a pretty valuable player.

 

In the end Nich must have tipped something about him that genuinely concerned GM's. The party line is that at 18 he was already pretty full of himself and with outright threats to go back to mother Russia, and with really really good players on the board, his value dropped according to the majority of GM's. 

 

Lindholm at 19, is already showing games where his skills are evident. At 19 that complete game is going to take a couple of years to peak. Just ask Skinner.

 

This team has issues. Taking Linholm is not one of them.

Edited by remkin

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It's always very easy to look back at a draft and 2nd guess the picks after the fact. But it's really a big gamble. Look at 2003 as a prime example. Would anyone in their right mind still take Marc Andre Fleury with the 1st overall? Or Eric Staal with the 2nd overall? I bet not. 

 

Cam Fowler got passed along like an offering plate in the 2010 draft. He was supposed to be a top 3 pick that year, as an "offensive minded" defensman. He dropped to 12th. Even I was hoping that the Canes wouldn't fall for the hype and pick this guy who could easily be a bust! The Rangers picked Dylan McIlrath ahead of Fowler....McIlrath, a guy who may likely NEVER skate one shift in the NHL and was known for being a fighter...nothing else. Do you ever think the Rangers or their fans don't regret that one? 

 

I didn't have Lindholm on my favorites list last summer. And him being the guy Francis wanted, really scares me because so far, Ron Francis has failed pretty miserably at identifying young talent. (Paradis, Welsh, Nash, etc all guys Francis asked for). But, Lindhom got rave scouting reports from a lot of scouts who said he was NHL ready and a very responsible 2-way player. I don't think it's all being overly optimistic to think that he may very soon be the Canes #2 center or a top line winger. Nich' looks amazing, and I would have taken a gamble on him myself. But you pick and you live with it, if you're the GM. 

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Now now...let's not give up on Lindholm...he hasn't gone to Boychuk levels yet!  ;)

 

I like him...Nich is getting good numbers cause he's on a line with Benn and Seguin.  If you stuck Lindholm on that same line, I bet you his numbers would be BETTER than Nich's.

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It's always very easy to look back at a draft and 2nd guess the picks after the fact. But it's really a big gamble. Look at 2003 as a prime example. Would anyone in their right mind still take Marc Andre Fleury with the 1st overall? Or Eric Staal with the 2nd overall? I bet not. 

 

Pretty sure most people would say Staal would be #1 if there was a do over...

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i've read yalls arguments  and here is my reply ,  if what you all said was half as true as your claim it to be then  the differences in stats between both players would not be justified as a showing on skill level but as an example of who they play with   , granted nichushkin is not the biggest point getter among rookies this year nor is lindholm   and for their respective teams   ,  

 

but with that being said  points at the end of the day on who is a plus player vs who is a minus player does matter ,  and if you are producing  as a player regardless of who is your linemates then that means you are still producing  

 

i would take eric staal and skinner or semin over jamie benn  and tyler seguin any day of the week .  since our boys are that much better , now granted  lindholm has not played with these pairings as much as nichushkin has with his linemates , but is that to say it has much to do with how lindholm himself is playing in his first year as a player or how coach muller thinks of lindholm  ? 

So for Lindholm/Nichushkin comparison stats mean everything but our 3 guys below are way better than the two on the left??

 

Benn     23g 33a 56pts +12      Staal      16g 32a 48pts -6

Seguin  25g 33a 58pts +11      Skinner  23g 17a 40pts -12

                                                 Semin    16g 16a 32pts +8

 

Total = 114pts +23                   Total = 120pts -10

 

Lindholm has 15 fewer points than Nichushkin in 20 less games.  He plays on the 3rd or 4th line compared to the top line.  

Lindolm S% 12.8 ---   Nichushkin  S% 13.4, also is it fair to say your +/- might be inflated while on the top line playing the majority of time on ice while the top defensive pairing is also on the ice as in Nichushkin's case?

 

Not only are they at least even, a case could be made that Lindholm is almost a full year younger and a much smaller player physically and is actually ahead of Nichushkin in developement.  If you can honestly look at Benn and Seguins stats above compared to our best offensive guys, then add that Lindholm is playing with our 7th and 8th best guys and tell me Nichushkin would have lifted our team to the playoffs and a better season I am all ears...

 

Not trying to trash our guys, just saying Lindholm is not the wrong guy.  We have bigger issues than one guy I think...

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Here's the thing with these "immediate impact" rookies. There are maybe three of these kinds of players in a draft and two usually are the 1st and 2nd overall picks. That really leaves just one diamond in the rough and the situation has to be ideal. As someone mentioned earlier, Nichuskin gets to play a lot of top line minutes with Tyler Seguin and Jamie Benn, two outstanding players. I subscribe to the Red Wings school of thought, but it's hard to buy into that when you don't have a team that's already ready to contend. I would suggest dealing Ward to a team that needs a goalie in exchange for an upper-level prospect that has already been established. The Capitals come to mind this summer if they are unable to retain Halak. 

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