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hopper915

2014 NHL Draft/ Canes pick #7

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You build your team primarily through the draft.  That's the starting point.  It's even more important in a small market with a budget.  It is what it is.

 

It would be easier to get what we need if we had something to give up, which we don't. We don't have anything to give up because we've drafted poorly or traded away picks to get rid of the players that were supposed to be part of the solution.  Because of the above, we are left picking at straws from the cast-off haystack hoping to find that magic needle, which more often than not, is just another straw.

 

Teams have young assets to give up because they have drafted them and are deep enough to let a few go.  We are still paying for the 2006-2009 draft, so we aren't in a position of strength.  Better recently -  we will see.  Rask, our highly touted second rounder evidently can't skate, and then there's Murphy.

 

So, rather than do the smart thing, and continue to build through the draft, the option is to use a #7 pick, and a roster player, to get what we need.  Failure.  See JR.  All that has given us is iffy players and no depth, particularly in the bottom-six and on defense.

 

PK was spot on when he asked for the fans to be patient. It's going to take some time to turn this around. Let's not make the same old mistakes over and over again.  One of the biggest reasons Vellucci was brought in was to avoid doing this IMO.

Edited by coastal_caniac

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Don't think Dal Colle will be available at #7.  I see him going possibly as high as 2nd overall.

The problem with Nylander, skilled as he is, is his lack of size.  Ritchie could make an immediate

impact.  Tuch would be another good choice, but he'll be attending college and wouldn't be around

for a minimum of two to three years.  RF is probably looking for someone that can step into the

lineup right now.

 

Personally, I'd draft Virtanen - who will likely be available because of the shoulder surgery.  He's

worth waiting for, imo.  Basically there are 10 to 12 guys that are similar, but different.  It'll depend

on what the different teams value.  And the Canes should value size above all else.

 

Dal Colle would be the most likely to drop out of the often considered "top 5/6". If Vancouver is set on Virtanen or Ehlers he could certainly fall to 7. It's not likely but who thought Grigorenko would fall as far as he did? No one we draft this year will play in the NHL until at least 15-16. Which is good. We shouldn't be rushing them. Looking for immediate impact is what got us in a bad place with some other prospects.

 

People around here have some craving for size but there's a difference between playing a hard nosed game and having size. Both Staal's are 6'4" and well over 200lbs. Alex Semin is 6'3" 210lbs. Manny Malhotra is 6'2" 220lbs. Sure Ritchie seems attractive with what he brings against kids in junior hockey, but there are a lot more risks with a player like that and he certainly lacks many things to a player like Nylander.

 

Virtanen would be there around 6 or 7 prior to his surgery. Now some people are imagining him dropping to 10-12. Tuch would be horrible at #7.

Edited by staalsy

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Here are our draft picks and couple who might as well have been.

 

Ward 2002
Staal 2003
Peters 2004
Bowman  2007
Bellemore 2007
Skinner 2010
Faulk 2010
Lindholm 2013

Drafted by others but aquired and grew up in our farm.

Dwyer from Atlanta w/ Rats 06-09
Nash from Edmonton Chex 2010 - 2013 (never skated for Oil's ahl team)

 

Hows that working out for us. Wait until they get some experience, wait until next year.

 

What we are lacking are a couple of top 6 players, an experienced D-man and a 4th liner. See anybody in the draft who will step into those roles and be a game changer?  See anybody who will be with us in the next 2 years?

 

We do need to restock the Chex but we will need to do that over the next few years through both the draft, trades and other team castoffs. 

 

Building a team only through the draft is the receipt for failure. The Oil and Isles keep trying. Good teams work their draft picks into a lineup of veterans, many obtained by trade. 

 

I comparison the Rangers had 7 players on the roster they drafted and not all of them are household names.

 

IMO playtime at the kiddie farm is over.

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I comparison the Rangers had 7 players on the roster they drafted and not all of them are household names.

 

You kind of picked the outlier here.  Last years champs had 13 of the 23 players on the roster either drafted or signed as undrafted FA's by the team.  The Hawks team has been pretty successful for a few seasons now and don't seem about to come back to the pack.  Teams like the Rangers are flush enough with cash to sign a big time FA and then burying them if need be (in the past).  The new CBA prevents that (see the Wade Redden rule, somehow named after a Ranger player).  The Canes didn't have that luxury and still don't.  The Rangers can also fully use their compliance buyouts if they need.  Do you think there is any chance the Canes would dole out millions of dollars just to walk away from a contract?  I don't.

 

I don't think the Rangers model of building a team is going to be successful in the long term with the new rules.

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I'd just ad that key trades are important to be sure. As are key free agent signings. The Cup team we had JR built through key aquisitions added to a drafted core. We got Sekera in a brilliant trade. We got Gleason (he used to be good) in a trade. Semin still can be a key piece as a FA.

 

But getting that super high end guy to come to Carolina as a FA is going to be a challenge. Name the last elite FA we signed outside of Semin, (who no one wanted).

 

Getting that core of really good players in a small market team, almost has to be done through the draft. Even if it is through drafting a guy with trade value and trading that guy. It also helps to score the occassional second round hit, a bit of an issue until recently where Faulk makes up for a lot.

 

The good news I think is that we've been able to draft failry high to get our core: Staal and Staal #2 (via trade of 2 first rounders  and a second), Skinner #7, Linholm #5, Vertanen oh wait....

Edited by remkin

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How about WE trade a highly paid roster player and receive a high first rounder and a roster player coming back to begin to change the culture of this team?

 

I could get behind that kind of trade at the draft.

Edited by coastal_caniac

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I suspect you have a different name in mind, but wouldn't it be nice if that name could be Ward. I know he wont' fetch that, but....

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Well, I was really half-way joking, but at this point, it's all about changing the culture.  That certainly won't be done solely through drafting.

Edited by coastal_caniac

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Let me clarify a little. I'm not saying you can't use the draft to help build a team with good draft picks. We have done that. I'm saying you can't build a team with draft picks alone. I'm also saying THAT THIS DRAFT DOESN'T EXCITE ME.

 

I agree we probable can't afford a free agent(s) that will cure our ills. I'm all for making a trade of one of our  "stars" but none, except Skinner or Faulk and I don't want to give up either, will be easy to trade. If you are able to move one under achieving "star" the odds are you make an even swap  or retain money. That leaves us still needing to fill the existing holes.

 

We can probable get a 4th liner in FA. We might get a D-man in a trade not involving our top players. But we aren't getting that Power Forward and if Staal moves to wing another top tier center unless we make trades. IMO we are stuck with the big salaries so you got to  trade. A first round pick will add value.

 

The pick is a chip, an asset and a gamble. Use it to get a top tier player.

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I'm biased.

 

I'm ready to move away from the old core and build a new one, with Francis and Vellucci hopefully having different philosophies with drafting, and a better pulse on how those decisions are made as they work to make this team respectable again.  With an asterik on respectable, particularly at home.

 

So, trading away the 7th pick for somebody now doesn't seem like the best first move toward that end given anybody significant in a draft day trade will cost dollars, big dollars.

 

Can't wait to see which way the Canes go in the next month, from a new coaching staff to what goes down at the draft.

Edited by coastal_caniac

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I'm biased.

I'm ready to move away from the old core and build a new one, with Francis and Vellucci hopefully having different philosophies with drafting, and a better pulse on how those decisions are made as they work to make this team respectable again. With an asterik on respectable, particularly at home.

So, trading away the 7th pick for somebody now doesn't seem like the best first move toward that end given anybody significant in a draft day trade will cost dollars, big dollars.

Can't wait to see which way the Canes go in the next month, from a new coaching staff to what goes down at the draft.

Agreed. Absolutely no way should we trade our 1st rounder, unless we get a top 4 defenseman, which won't happen.

Nobody thought the 2010 draft would be deep, now there's plenty of players at top level.

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I actually am kind of excited about this draft. The problem I have is that, as is often the case, it seems that there is a top 5. Just like last year, when we picked just outside of the widely accepted top 4, we are picking 7. But there are still some really good players with tons of upside that we could look at. Nylander, Ritchie, Vertanen, are all interesting. 

 

I agree that these guys will not help next year. Draft picks almost never do at 18 yo. (One of the reasons I have such high hopes for Lindholm). 

 

The irony is this. Long term you have to build your core through the draft, or the trading of those players for the reasons discussed (teams not generally letting their studs go to UFA, competition with large market, large budget teams, etc). But since a draft pick is a long term investment with an element of chance (some don't live up to expectations), it is hard to trade a pick for proven talent.

 

The only way I could see us trading the #7 pick for a proven stud is to package that pick with other assets a la the J. Staal trade. But what assets? Pittsburgh was a bit in a box, knowing they only had one more year of J. 

 

We'd have to find a rebuilding team that had a good, if underrated veteran, that it was willing to let go for the pick, plus something.

 

This is why in my fantasy, Francis pulls of the move the decade and moves Ward out, and brings a key dman or forward back and maybe moves down the draft as part of it. (There are still really good players in the 11-12 range). But then that team needs to be rebuilding, have a guy we want, they'd let go, and need an goalie bad. Just seems like a long shot.

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. . .

 

We'd have to find a rebuilding team that had a good, if underrated veteran, that it was willing to let go for the pick, plus something.

 

This is why in my fantasy, Francis pulls of the move the decade and moves Ward out, and brings a key dman or forward back and maybe moves down the draft as part of it. (There are still really good players in the 11-12 range). But then that team needs to be rebuilding, have a guy we want, they'd let go, and need an goalie bad. Just seems like a long shot.

And be willing to part with assets to get Ward instead of going the free agent route.  http://www.capgeek.com/free-agents?year_id=2014&team_id=-1&position_id=G&fa_type_id=2

 

On the one hand, there's 34 UFA goalies on the market right now.  But on the other hand, that includes the likes of Mike Murphy and Pete Dawg.  Many in that pool aren't legitimate candidates to start for a team,  And most of the "names" available are 37 years old or older.  So I guess it's possible that RF could get something useful in return for Cam, in spite of the numbers. . .  

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The Kings also have 13 players on their roster that are home grown. Drafting and development is the most efficient way to build a contender.

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The Kings also have 13 players on their roster that are home grown. Drafting and development is the most efficient way to build a contender.

 

I can't argue with this. I'm not suggesting trading the first round pick is a way of life. This is one pick in one year to help address our needs now. Looking at our team assets I just don't see another way. I could be wrong and Francis may pull off the impossible trade or PK could say I was just kidding when I said spending to cap didn't work.

 

We have to realistically look at what we have, who we can reasonable move and for what. I don't see us in a good trade position unless we are willing to deal the pick.

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and yet you continue the conversation. In this draft discussion its your opinion we should draft and build and it is my opinion we should use the pick to make a trade for now. Its an opinion. That is all.

 

I don't see our problem as our draft history but rather bad contracts.

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But I tried to back up my opinion, while you continue to speak in generalities. 

 

If you perceive our problem as bad contracts how do we bring on another 5-7 million dollar player without moving somebody out?  You mentioned, I believe, a top-6 forward (5-mil), and a top-4 defenseman (at least 5-mil).

 

You won't get a proven top-6 forward and a top-4 defenseman for an unproven draft pick.  You will have to add, creating another hole to fill. Who do we have under contract to sweeten the pot?  If nobody, that just leaves another draft pick or a prospect, which as I pointed out, has been the way of life under JR.

 

That's what I'm trying to understand.  I realize it's your opinion. 

Edited by coastal_caniac

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Fair enough.

 

First, if we can move a big contract I probable change my mind. I don't think we can except maybe Ward and we will probable retain salary limiting what we can use for free agency. Still it will make me reconsider.

 

Next, I said top 6 forward not proven big contract veteran. I have read names of possible players with expiring contracts or teams maybe willing to talk. Honestly I don't know who would be our target but my guess is an RFA needing a bridge contract or an up and comer with maybe a year or two left on his contract. We are probable looking at a player in the 3-3.5 range and yes it will be a gamble.

 

I never said we could get a top 6 forward and top D man using the pick. I said that was our need. Obviously we might fill one of those holes but not both. But using the pick at the draft won't fill those holes either.

 

We will need to move players and will but my guess is we won't be able to move many of the big guns.

 

Thats why I see our biggest chip as the pick.

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Well, the draft can fill those holes, if it's used for what it's intended to be used for  - building a team, rather than trading away the future in an attempt to "win now". 

 

I wouldn't argue the 7th pick couldn't be used as a bargaining chip, I question whether that's the most responsible thing to do moving forward, recognizing that we likely aren't in a position to completely turn the fortunes of this franchise around in one season, given the mess JR left things in.  But, like I said earlier, I'm probably a little more patient than most.

 

Should make for an interesting off-season, starting with the draft.  Personally, I'd be completely shocked if we traded that pick away in a deal to sweeten the pot for a roster player as you described.

 

It's killing me not knowing what approach RF and company will take to turn things around.  No news is no news, and so far these guys are not saying anything, nada, nothing.  Somebody needs to squeeze some info out of these guys.

Edited by coastal_caniac

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Anybody else seen this?  Basically, Sam Bennett failed to do even one pull-up at the scouting combine. It's gotten a lot of attention.

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2082003-top-prospect-sam-bennett-posts-no-pull-ups-at-2014-nhl-scouting-combine

 

I don't think it's a big deal with scouts, but how can anybody that skinny not be able to do just one pull-up?  It's funny.

Edited by coastal_caniac

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As for using that #7 pick to get a proven player, I'd point you back to the JStaal trade, and the exact cost of making a move like that in personnel and also the $60M that JStaal is now making. 

 

Honestly,  short sighted moves need to be driven out of the culture.  Trading away picks and prospects to get rid of problems needs to go.  Giving players one way deals that haven't proven they can play at the NHL level needs to go. 

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Coastal I'm right with you, No news is no news. We can speculate and state what we think we should do but without a history from RF its really difficult for me to say or even guess what he might do.

 

Dave as for the J trade  as of now it was a very bad move. Maybe in a year or so we can look back and say it was a nice move after all. Right now it looks like an awful move with bad money attached. Trading a pick for J wasn't that bad but throwing in Sutter was.

 

I am in no way suggesting with use our pick to make that kind of deal again.

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