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And round and round the debate goes. 

 

I think if you're team is losing, you want to go opposite. If you are big and slow, you decide to speed up. If you are small and speedy but soft you try to get bigger. Then everyone tries to copy the winner. 

 

I think if you look long term, puck control and speed ends up winning over big and physical at the end of the day. (There I go with that again). Obviously you don't run out and make an entire team of Marty St. Louis' . But Marty is still playing...

 

Two puck control teams Chicago and Detroit, have done pretty well over time. 

Edited by remkin

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I've been saying that for years while this mythical debate has been ongoing.  Carolina is NOT small, they're just not physical.  And I refuse to dismiss the notion of having a guy like Gerbe on our team, who played bigger than everybody last year, just because he doesn't meet some quota.

 

And I firmly believe that teams in general play physical due to coaching.  Which is why I wouldn't be opposed to Carolina hiring a guy like Torts or Bylsma.

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I've been saying that for years while this mythical debate has been ongoing.  Carolina is NOT small, they're just not physical.  And I refuse to dismiss the notion of having a guy like Gerbe on our team, who played bigger than everybody last year, just because he doesn't meet some quota.

 

And I firmly believe that teams in general play physical due to coaching.  Which is why I wouldn't be opposed to Carolina hiring a guy like Torts or Bylsma.

 

I've got to strongly second that perspective.  And add this additional observation: many people seem to be evaluating players like Gerbe not on the bottom line of what he adds, but how he adds it.  E.g., gaining the puck through speed or hustle is just as valuable as gaining it by outmuscling an opposing player.  But a lot people don't seem to credit the former but are quick to decry the lack of the latter. 

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I've got to strongly second that perspective.  And add this additional observation: many people seem to be evaluating players like Gerbe not on the bottom line of what he adds, but how he adds it.  E.g., gaining the puck through speed or hustle is just as valuable as gaining it by outmuscling an opposing player.  But a lot people don't seem to credit the former but are quick to decry the lack of the latter. 

 

Just to add on.  An example of a player I wouldn't mind seeing the hurricanes go after this offseason is Ryan Callahan.  He doesn't fit the mold of "big and bad" but the guy hustles every shift, and can produce on a top line.  

 

Size is never a bad thing, but it's not the end-all be-all.  That's the motto it seems that Francis is going with.

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We don't need to be bigger, we need to be tougher.  Simple as that.

 

If getting bigger is part of that, so be it.

 

We have a lot of nice guys.  We need a few who we would not take home to mother. 

 

Avoiding locker room strife and PR issues by taking "family guys" for a lack of a better term seems to have been our strategy.  While this is great for publicity, it doesn't necessarily build a winner.

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Well I chose his two most recent Pittsburgh years. Jordan came in and played at age 18 on a team with two superstar centers. I chose to think that as his game matured he gained the scoring touch, so I left out his earliest years, even though they were complete seasons. And he maintained it through two consecutive seasons including both playoffs. Those were 120 consecutive games, the 120 right before he got here. I think that was enough N value as we like to say, to show what he is capable of.

 

Take his per game production over those last 120 consecutive Pittsburgh games including playoffs, and down size them to an 82 game season, and that's 65 points.

 

Either way, if he is here to be a defensive center, then we seriously overpaid. 

 

Anyway there may be some common ground in this. I don't think he has to put up 65-70 points to be worth his salary. I just think that it is pretty clear that he is capable of it if given the right role and wingers. 40 points? Well that is harder to do than a lot of people think. Go down most teams rosters and it doesn't take long to get to guys under 40 points. Still, and not to split hairs, but I think we need more like 55 for him to be worth everything involved in getting him and keeping him. 

 

All I am saying is asking a guy to be the shut down defensive center on a weak defensive team and score 70 points is an unrealistic expectation, and regardless of how you spin his production elsewhere, he won't do that here in that role.

 

I  agree he can be better, but don't put him beside Gerbe and Dwyer for most of the year, put hjim out against top lines every night and expect much more than what we are seeing. 

 

Hopefully Francis will take a different approach and get us a guy who can take some of the defensive role from Jordan and allow him to reach a higher point plateau with offensive wingers.

 

Maybe we are saying the same thing...... :D

Edited by coastal_caniac

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All I am saying is asking a guy to be the shut down defensive center on a weak defensive team and score 70 points is an unrealistic expectation, and regardless of how you spin his production elsewhere, he won't do that here in that role.

 

I  agree he can be better, but don't put him beside Gerbe and Dwyer for most of the year, put hjim out against top lines every night and expect much more than what we are seeing. 

 

Hopefully Francis will take a different approach and get us a guy who can take some of the defensive role from Jordan and allow him to reach a higher point plateau with offensive wingers.

 

Maybe we are saying the same thing......

I think you guys are agreeing in the sense that Jordan can't be asked to fill BOTH roles. 

 

IMO, the Canes played their best hockey when Jordan, Gerbe and Dwyer not only shutdown the top lines, but at times outscored them, AND..somebody else picked up the slack of scoring goals.  That somebody was Jeff Skinner.  Those games in January were the season's best.

 

So either get someone for that shutdown role that can ACTUALLY do what Jordan does (better than anyone), or put him in the role where the team performed best.  Look for offense from others that underperformed (or trade the underperformers) who should be scoring but are on the wrong side of +/-.

 

If the top line delivered last year we all wouldn't be having this conversation and may have been watching Playoff Hockey.

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Good point OBXer.

If Tlusty comes back, move him and Semin to Jordan's line, then put Skinner and Lindholm with Eric. On paper, two good scoring lines.

 

Build a 3rd grind line around say Brandon, Dwyer and Gerbe. Fourth line up in the air.

 

New rumor floating around, per watching ESPN about the Penguins.

They are saying they may move Malkin, as they are up against the Cap.

I say highly unlikely............

I like that third line! Nickname could be the pest line. I could see them really p offing the other team.

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I ran across these numbers a while back, and thought they might be interesting in the discussion of the "size" of the Hurricanes.

 

At the beginning of the season, James Mirtle posted height, weight and age information for all the teams. The Hurricanes were the 24th tallest team - 73.0", just .3" below the average height, which ranged from Montreal (72.2") to Tampa Bay (74.2"). But while a tad on the short side, they were the 10th heaviest team - 205.1 lbs, or 1.4 lbs above the average weight, which ranged from the Islanders (199.3 lbs) to the Kings (209.8 lbs).

For the complete listing: http://mirtle.blogspot.com/2013/10/2013-14-nhl-teams-by-height-weight-and.html

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What do you guys think about signing Dan Boyle this offseason as a free agent?  He is older(37), but seems like a solid pickup.  Could provide some veteran leadership for the younger guys.

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What do you guys think about signing Dan Boyle this offseason as a free agent? He is older(37), but seems like a solid pickup. Could provide some veteran leadership for the younger guys.

I would love it. Unfortunately, he's at the age where he wants to play for a contender. Don't see him here unless we wayy overpay

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All I am saying is asking a guy to be the shut down defensive center on a weak defensive team and score 70 points is an unrealistic expectation, and regardless of how you spin his production elsewhere, he won't do that here in that role.

 

I  agree he can be better, but don't put him beside Gerbe and Dwyer for most of the year, put hjim out against top lines every night and expect much more than what we are seeing. 

 

Hopefully Francis will take a different approach and get us a guy who can take some of the defensive role from Jordan and allow him to reach a higher point plateau with offensive wingers.

 

Maybe we are saying the same thing...... :D

 

Other than my disagreeing that 120 consecutive games is spinning, I'll agree to this common ground.

 

I would be curious how much of those 120 games J. was on the third line. I think it was a bunch of it, but I'm not really sure. 

 

The thing is J was the #2 overall pick. The newly departed Shero was going to pay J. what we are paying him. But can you really tie up that much salary in a defensive center? Maybe. But I tend to think if we are paying him what we are paying him we need to get production. If we need to bring a Brandon Sutter type in here to play defense, we can do that a lot cheaper.

 

We asked Jussi to play defense too. That did not work out for us. It worked out in Pittsburgh though. That guy actually put up 65 actual points in an actual full season. We treated him like a 3rd/4th liner and eventually gave him away. He then went back to his correct role and put up 57 points in this actual season. 

 

It's just the way it is. You pay forwards big bucks to score. You pay small bucks to back check.

 

I do agree that J has mostly not had consistent second line wingers. He's had 3rd/4th line wingers most of the time. 

 

I also think we agree that if we give J. some scoring wingers and let him loose a bit on offense, he is capable of a 70 point season. My main point is that we need to do that. Actually do it.

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Other than my disagreeing that 120 consecutive games is spinning, I'll agree to this common ground.

 

I would be curious how much of those 120 games J. was on the third line. I think it was a bunch of it, but I'm not really sure. 

 

The thing is J was the #2 overall pick. The newly departed Shero was going to pay J. what we are paying him. But can you really tie up that much salary in a defensive center? Maybe. But I tend to think if we are paying him what we are paying him we need to get production. If we need to bring a Brandon Sutter type in here to play defense, we can do that a lot cheaper.

 

We asked Jussi to play defense too. That did not work out for us. It worked out in Pittsburgh though. That guy actually put up 65 actual points in an actual full season. We treated him like a 3rd/4th liner and eventually gave him away. He then went back to his correct role and put up 57 points in this actual season. 

 

It's just the way it is. You pay forwards big bucks to score. You pay small bucks to back check.

 

I do agree that J has mostly not had consistent second line wingers. He's had 3rd/4th line wingers most of the time. 

 

I also think we agree that if we give J. some scoring wingers and let him loose a bit on offense, he is capable of a 70 point season. My main point is that we need to do that. Actually do it.

 

Fair enough.

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That's exactly where Jordan is right now, playing a 3rd line center role for a top 6 scoring salary. He largely played that role with 3rd line wingers. That said, he did it well. 

 

I hope Francis and the new coach see it differently and find us a real 3rd line center for a fraction of the cost. Give Jordan a real shot at playing the role most of us expected him to play as a number 2 center with a number 2 price tag.

 

You're not going to play against the Toews', Crosby's, and Tavares' of the league with Dwyer and Gerbe and put up 70 points. 

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I'd like to ask the members on here what they think the most pressing need is for the Canes in the off season this summer?  Which position do we need to fill the most?  I think we need a big power forward the most.  

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Hi Guys, I saw yesterday where C J Umberger was asking for a trade out of Columbus. Could or should The Canes take a look at him? I know he is aging, his contract is a factor and he's probably looking for a team to land with that is a "contender", but I suspect that he'd be great in a 3rd line mode. Particularly, if they buy him out, we could get a reasonable deal? Just throwing that out there. He'd bring some size, but don't know about the grit aspect?

Edited by KJUNKANE

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Hi Guys, I saw yesterday where C J Umberger was asking for a trade out of Columbus. Could or should The Canes take a look at him? I know he is aging, his contract is a factor and he's probably looking for a team to land with that is a "contender", but I suspect that he'd be great in a 3rd line mode. Particularly, if they buy him out, we could get a reasonable deal? Just throwing that out there. He'd bring some size, but don't know about the grit aspect?

Wouldn't be opposed to it, but who do you trade to get him?

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Hi Guys, I saw yesterday where C J Umberger was asking for a trade out of Columbus. Could or should The Canes take a look at him? I know he is aging, his contract is a factor and he's probably looking for a team to land with that is a "contender", but I suspect that he'd be great in a 3rd line mode. Particularly, if they buy him out, we could get a reasonable deal? Just throwing that out there. He'd bring some size, but don't know about the grit aspect?

I dunno. . . 32 years old with 3 years left at $4.5m per. Now if we could have moved Rutuu or Gleason for him, I would have liked the move.  But with PK implying that he's not upping the budget to match the increased salary cap?  Not so sure.

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Trusty?

Tlusty's RFA qualifying offer is $1.7m.  And you've got to believe that his numbers last season tempered what he'll expect to receive under a new contract.  While I don't expect him to match his 2012-13 numbers again, I do expect him to bounce back from last year.  For some reason if we made that trade I envision picking up almost an additional $3m in salary and then Tlusty pulling a "Jokinen" with the BJs. 

Edited by LakeLivin

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OBXer posted an interesting link to some Ron Francis thoughts on what he wants in a new coach here: http://fans.hurricanes.nhl.com/community/topic/22128-front-office-lounge-gm-talk/page-16#entry403529

 

One other interesting tidbit in the article is that RF would like to see E at LW rather than center.  If so, I've got to believe that a priority this off-season is to acquire more talent specifically at the C position.

 

Edit: which makes Lokti's injury even more unfortunate.

Edited by LakeLivin

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capgeek.com is a pretty good resource for that stuff.

 

Has the 2014 UFA class listed if you scroll just a bit down.

They have RFAs too.  What a great site that is!

 

UFA centers (from Capgeek): http://www.capgeek.c...=C&fa_type_id=2

RFA centers (from Capgeek): http://www.capgeek.com/free-agents/?year_id=2014&team_id=-1&position_id=C&fa_type_id=1

Edited by LakeLivin

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