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Swanson

The Staal Factor - Everything Staal(s)

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Marc Staal is now in the exact same situation that Jordan was in at the draft. One year left on his deal with him being a UFA after that. He would be a great add to our defensive group and the Rangers have to be thinking that they will lose him for nothing at the end of next year. Do they let him walk at the end of next year or try to get Francis to make a deal now where they could get our #1 pick or something else in return? Pitkanen appears to be done forever and was a UFA anyway so there is $4.5mil back in the Canes checkbook. I'll be interested to see what happens during the draft this weekend. You would have to think he would like to play with is brothers and is getting tremendous pressure from them to do so at some point. Some would argue the Eric or Jordan are on their way out. Both have NTC's so unless they could both be traded to the Rangers, I don't see them leaving. The Staals have a tight grip on Francis and the Canes with their contracts. Should be interesting to see how it plays out.

 

Anyone else have thoughts on it?

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I have a thought. Don't give up a single asset for a guy that can walk in a year. JR gave up a treasure chest to get JStaal for 50 games. That worked out great...not.

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I also have a thought. Not sure what went wrong last year, but there's the possibility that Staal x2 could have been part of the basic problem. As fans, we'll never know about locker room conditions, although the Staal family has always been cited as being upstanding. However, if there was some type of power struggle in play, I'm not so sure that I'd add fuel to the fire by bringing in one more factor?

 

Also, I agree with super Dave, in that in retrospect, paying so much just to secure Jordan's services now seems like over pay. JMHO

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While I'd disagree with super_dave_1 that it was a treasure trove... 8th rounder Pouliot has played one AHL game and was a -2 and  Dumoulin so far hasn't been the talent everyone thought he was (often overlooked by Pens with injury plagued D). Now I do think it hurt to give up Sutter especially since he is still a RFA. Will be interesting to see what he signs for with Pens/ Rutherford in the coming months. Rutherford's hand was forced to offer Jordan same deal Pittsburgh did once he made the trade. Knowing cap space is tight in Pitt can they even resign Sutter?  Than again Riley Nash put up the same numbers as Sutter so was he that great or was he just an average 3rd line center we all grew to love? 

 

I agree being a All-Staal team might not be the answer, but how often does a top 4 D man *want* to come to Raleigh to play? I think KJUNKANE said it best "As fans, we'll never know about locker room conditions" but I like what Peters said, He holds the hammer and that hammer is ice time. They want it and he controls it. 

 

I just hope they don't give up anything major to get Marc this year since it appears he'd come here for free next year. Then again, as always, we have some big holes on D to fill...

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Swanson, not to quibble but Pouliot was not an 8th rounder. He was the number 8 overall pick of the first round. He is a prime prospect. 

 

But I have to basically agree w/ SD and Kjun. Marc can join the brother's Staal under two (three) conditions:

 

1. He is a FA and we give up nothing for him (next year)

2. Eric and Jordan use this year to show that Brother's Staal can work.

(3. No NTC. (which he will undoubtably want to have))

 

So, if we rebound and make the playoffs comfortably, and this team lives up to it's potential and turns the thing around, and Marc wants in next year as a FA. Sweet. (especially if we don't have 3 Staals w/ NTC's).

 

But no way is Francis going to repeat JR's stroll down that road right now, unless the deal is too good to be true, which by definition will not happen.

Edited by remkin

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Hasn't Marc Staal said he isn't interested in playing with his 2 brothers and wants to stay in NY? And that would seem to be doubly true now that they've played in the cup finals.  Sorry Swanson, but unless you've heard something and your original post isn't pure speculation, I'm gonna pass on spending much time on this one. :) 

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I think we also need to consider that when Francis was asked about E's future he said it would depend upon the budget. If the money isn't there for E in the near future I'm not sure it will be there for Marc in the next season or so.

 

Marc would be an upgrade for us and taken on his own I would make a pitch but with the E & J situations I'm not sure I wouldn't shy away from bringing a 4th Staal into the organization.

 

I see it more likely E goes to NY then Marc comes to Carolina.

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I have a thought. Don't give up a single asset for a guy that can walk in a year. JR gave up a treasure chest to get JStaal for 50 games. That worked out great...not.

Yeah.  we knew Jordan wanted to play with a brother, and turned down Shero's offer.  If we waited till free agency, we'd have Sutter, and wouldn't still be searching for a 3rd line Center.

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Remkin - you're correct he was an overall 8th selection and a "prime prospect". I haven't seen any speculation where he was going to be the great or NHL ready at any point though. Too many Zach Boychuk's, Jerome Sanson's and Bobby Sangunetti's for me to consider most AHL/ OHL players "prime prospects". (I would love to see Victor Rask do good) The game has changed a lot in 5-10 years and players are making the big clubs faster as the overall game is faster, otherwise they tend to sit in the AHL until they get traded/ waived (and sometimes returned).

 

I agree it with everyone it would be ideal to get Marc Staal for free. I just wonder if Francis falls in the same traps as Rutherford did? For the record I couldn't stand Rutherford and his moves the last 5-6 years. Take Williams and Ladd, what great losses those are now with not much in return. Not to mention Cam, Eric, Jordan and Semin's ridiculous contracts. I've been to all but 10 home games in the last three seasons and I expect value in return. Rutherford failed miserably at that. My ticket rep knew that if JR stayed my money was going to stay in my pocket. I hope you are right about Francis but he hasn't proven much yet except that he was a incredible player. I hope he becomes a role model GM, but those are far and few between in the league.

 

I think it would take a wholly crap storm for Jordan or Eric to leave. They like it here, like having their families here and have the ultimate deal breaker with their NTC's. Then again if Peters drops the hammer as he's mentioned, they need to put up some points, or move further down the depth chart.  Guess we'll all see.

 

Dog Butler - interesting comment - If we waited till free agency, we'd have Sutter, and wouldn't still be searching for a 3rd line Center.

check out these stats -

 

# POS PLAYER GP G A P +/- PIM PP SH GW S S% 16 C BRANDON SUTTER 81 13 13 26 -9 12 2 3 1 144 9 20 C RILEY NASH 73 10 14 24 0 29 1 0 3 86 11.6

 

I'd say Riley Nash is doing alright as a third line center on a underperforming team while making $1.5 less than Sutter and that's if Sutter doesn't get a raise from JR. He may not as great defensively as Sutter is, but he's getting there. 

 

On another Staal related topic, can we cut Jared loose already, he's proved year after year, he'd be better managing the Sod farm...

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Remkin - you're correct he was an overall 8th selection and a "prime prospect". I haven't seen any speculation where he was going to be the great or NHL ready at any point though. Too many Zach Boychuk's, Jerome Sanson's and Bobby Sangunetti's for me to consider most AHL/ OHL players "prime prospects". (I would love to see Victor Rask do good) The game has changed a lot in 5-10 years and players are making the big clubs faster as the overall game is faster, otherwise they tend to sit in the AHL until they get traded/ waived (and sometimes returned).

 

I agree it with everyone it would be ideal to get Marc Staal for free. I just wonder if Francis falls in the same traps as Rutherford did? For the record I couldn't stand Rutherford and his moves the last 5-6 years. Take Williams and Ladd, what great losses those are now with not much in return. Not to mention Cam, Eric, Jordan and Semin's ridiculous contracts. I've been to all but 10 home games in the last three seasons and I expect value in return. Rutherford failed miserably at that. My ticket rep knew that if JR stayed my money was going to stay in my pocket. I hope you are right about Francis but he hasn't proven much yet except that he was a incredible player. I hope he becomes a role model GM, but those are far and few between in the league.

 

I think it would take a wholly crap storm for Jordan or Eric to leave. They like it here, like having their families here and have the ultimate deal breaker with their NTC's. Then again if Peters drops the hammer as he's mentioned, they need to put up some points, or move further down the depth chart.  Guess we'll all see.

 

Dog Butler - interesting comment - If we waited till free agency, we'd have Sutter, and wouldn't still be searching for a 3rd line Center.

check out these stats -

 

# POS PLAYER GP G A P +/- PIM PP SH GW S S% 16 C BRANDON SUTTER 81 13 13 26 -9 12 2 3 1 144 9 20 C RILEY NASH 73 10 14 24 0 29 1 0 3 86 11.6

 

I'd say Riley Nash is doing alright as a third line center on a underperforming team while making $1.5 less than Sutter and that's if Sutter doesn't get a raise from JR. He may not as great defensively as Sutter is, but he's getting there. 

 

On another Staal related topic, can we cut Jared loose already, he's proved year after year, he'd be better managing the Sod farm...

Good point.  Of course Brandon was one of the better players in the playoffs for the Pens, which is a skill that would be wasted here for the moment.

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Let's make this Staal trade topic a little more acurate:

 

RIley Nash appears to be a very suitable replacement for Sutter.  Nash's numbers were better that Sutter's last year on a much more inconsistant team.  I like Sutter, but we just had Brandon, not his dad and uncles!

 

We can't compare Pouliot because it was already released that Grigorenko would have been our pick.  He is currently on track for less than Boychuk like development.

 

Dumoulin was one of our top prospects, but that just goes to show how thin we are in our prospect pool.  He has not shown very much since he left college.  He still could develop, but he seems to be pretty low on thier depth chart right now.

 

Jordan Staal is one of the top YOUNG two-way centers in the game and we have him at a reasonable salary for a long time.  He was our best forward last season during a rough year.  Give him consistant line parters (it would be Semin and Tlusty if I was the coach)and watch him grow.  He is still only 25!!  He's 6'4", 220 lbs!!!!  Big centers don't grow on trees!!

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I have seen plenty of Sutter and Nash.  No matter what last year's stats indicate, Sutter is a much better player in my eyes.  I love the way people can take a small sample size and leap to conclusions.

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At this point, Sutter is more suitable in the 3rd line slot.  However, Riley Nash was a very pleasant surprise this past season.  You can tell he was willing to do what it takes to be successful in the NHL.  I think he has the ability to get to where Sutter was for us.

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To the topic question, my answer is never - at least, not if Ronnie learned anything during his training. I don't know what JR's obsession with getting all the Staals here was about (though I'll venture a guess: ticket sales), but I sure as hell hope Ronnie doesn't share it.

 

To the ancillary discussions: It is going to be very interesting to see if Peters puts - and leaves - Eric at wing, his natural position. And while putting him there **seems** to create a gap down the middle, there's a one-word response to that: Loktionov. Playing the middle well begins with winning face-offs, and while Eric's skill there is better than it was, it is nowhere near first-line (or PP) center status. Even if it were, again, E.'s game is suited to the wing regardless, and putting him on one side with Semin on the other creates a first line not only with a better than even-money chance of getting the puck whenever it drops but one that will instantly command incredible respect versus any team in the league based on both size and skill.

 

Yes, Tlusty, Semin and Eric were showing some signs at the end of the year of regaining the chemistry which, in the strike-shortened season, made them the hottest line in hockey for about 10 days (before injuries hit). But chemistry comes a lot easier when the games don't matter anymore, and at the rates we are paying E, J, and Alex, it's is time to put them front and center and tell them to earn their keep. And if we do, I think they will respond.

 

Line 2: Skinner-Nash-Lindy. They earned it last year, the chemistry was clear, and since teams are going to respond to a first line of Staal-Staal-Semin with their biggest forwards, the speed and smaller size of such a second line would likely meet with similar size and skill from the opposition. And we now have two lines with centers whose face-off percentages are over 50 percent.

 

Now, think about Gerbs, Manny and Tlusty. A big guy who can bury the puck and is unafraid to mix it up, and two guys with some of the softest hands in the league. And we're STILL over 50% on face-offs. And if third-line responsibilities prove too much for Manny, so be it; Loktionov moves up.

 

So that leaves the fourth line wingers, and that's what training camp is for. But I'm pulling for Dvorak and Terry.

 

While our D has made strides in the past two seasons, the best way to limit the opposition's opportunities always has been and always will be denying them the puck. If we are not focused on winning it at the dot and keeping it for the majority of the game, we don't have our priorities straight. So it's going to be very interesting to see if Peters has the freedom to put Eric where he belongs: On the wing.

Edited by top-shelf-1

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IMHO, if Manny is our 3rd line center, we will be in the running to draft one of the two super elites next year.

I don't know if I'd go that far lol, but I agree that we don't want Manny as 3rd line center. Yes to re-signing him for depth, special situations, and to help build the culture this team needs to develop. :)

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 And if you're counting on our third line to carry us to the playoffs, that prediction makes total sense. Loktionov is the more likely choice, but I'd sure love to have Manny's FO skills on the third slot.

IMHO, if Manny is our 3rd line center, we will be in the running to draft one of the two super elites next year.

 

I will say this: If Eric's at center again, we're doing the same thing and expecting different results. And we all know what that's the definition of :)

Edited by top-shelf-1

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 And if you're counting on our third line to carry us to the playoffs, that prediction makes total sense. Loktionov is the more likely choice, but I'd sure love to have Manny's FO skills on the third slot.

IMHO, if Manny is our 3rd line center, we will be in the running to draft one of the two super elites next year.

 

I will say this: If Eric's at center again, we're doing the same thing and expecting different results. And we all know what that's the definition of :)

 

Why would we want different results?  Last year was one down year, on a team that all had down years.  Eric Staal is and has been one of the most consistant scoring centers for the last 10 years or so.  I think we want more of the same out of him.

 

What we don't want to repeat is trying to rely on him to make up an effective first line with the Anthony Stewerts, Zach Dalpes, or Alexai Ponikorovskis of the league.  Those are just a few of the low budget options we have projected to play with Eric over the years.  I am sure we can all think of more names to put on that list.

 

He still managed to put up 70+ points a year.  I would say we do want more of the same out of him (not including last year), but this time let's ice a complete line to go along with him.

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Why would we want different results?  Last year was one down year, on a team that all had down years.  Eric Staal is and has been one of the most consistant scoring centers for the last 10 years or so.  I think we want more of the same out of him.

 

What we don't want to repeat is trying to rely on him to make up an effective first line with the Anthony Stewerts, Zach Dalpes, or Alexai Ponikorovskis of the league.  Those are just a few of the low budget options we have projected to play with Eric over the years.  I am sure we can all think of more names to put on that list.

 

He still managed to put up 70+ points a year.  I would say we do want more of the same out of him (not including last year), but this time let's ice a complete line to go along with him.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree, and that's fine. 70 meaningless points do not impress me, a Captain who does not lead does not impress me, and a center who surrenders the puck more than he wins it at the dot is not the way to the puck-possession game Peters has already said he intends to play. I say it's about time, and that it shouldn't matter whether Eric wants to play center or not; what matters is whether he'll play where the coach tells him to - something he didn't have to do while JR was here. Putting him on the ice with his brother last season paid off, and putting him, J and Semin on the same line would command respect. Every other franchise player in the league is able to adapt to the people he's teamed with, and the excuse that we have not found a suitable wing for Eric is old, tired, and unacceptable at his rate of pay.

Edited by top-shelf-1

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I don't disagree with a line of Staal / Staal / Semin at all.  That should be a really high end top line.  I would question what we do on the 2nd line though.  Nash is not a 2nd line center.  Lokionov could be if healthy.  He looked really good on the PP with Skinner and Lindholm.  Maybe that would translate to 5 on 5?

 

If we can't ice some threat on the 2nd line, the top line is going to struggle against top pairing defensemen and grinders on most nights.

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Guess we'll have to agree to disagree, and that's fine. 70 meaningless points do not impress me, a Captain who does not lead does not impress me, and a center who surrenders the puck more than he wins it at the dot is not the way to the puck-possession game Peters has already said he intends to play. I say it's about time, and that it shouldn't matter whether Eric wants to play center or not; what matters is whether he'll play where the coach tells him to - something he didn't have to do while JR was here. Putting him on the ice with his brother last season paid off, and putting him, J and Semin on the same line would command respect. Every other franchise player in the league is able to adapt to the people he's teamed with, and the excuse that we have not found a suitable wing for Eric is old, tired, and unacceptable at his rate of pay.

 

 

"70 meaningless points"? What does that even mean? 

 

And he was 13th in the league at faceoffs won (Jordan was 8th) so I'm not sure why you think he's so bad at the dot. 

 

He also had the 2nd most takeaways in the league.

 

Eric is still our best player. He had a down year (coming off an injury) but he still lead the team in points and there were several games were he carried the team. But some fans will only point out when he makes a mistake.

Edited by TheFaulker

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"70 meaningless points"? What does that even mean? 

 

And he was 13th in the league at faceoffs won (Jordan was 8th) so I'm not sure why you think he's so bad at the dot. 

 

He also had the 2nd most takeaways in the league.

 

Eric is still our best player. He had a down year (coming off an injury) but he still lead the team in points and there were several games were he carried the team. But some fans will only point out when he makes a mistake.

 

What it means is that 70 points are meaningless if your team doesn't get to the dance, and this team, under Eric's on-ice leadership, has done so just once. He is the 6th-highest paid forward in the league - $9.25 million next year - but the only one among the top 20 highest-paid forwards whose team did not make the playoffs. And what you call an injury Rod Brind-A'Mour would have called a hangnail. If he wasn't ready to go he should have sat out and got healthy, and if he was ready to go, no excuses.

 

Year after year, management (management which is now thankfully gone) and many fans have made excuses for Eric. It's time he leads, puts up numbers and plays at a level worthy of his mammoth salary. If moving him to the wing increases his chances of doing that and our chances of winning, why would we not do it?

Edited by top-shelf-1

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What it means is that 70 points are meaningless if your team doesn't get to the dance, and this team, under Eric's on-ice leadership, has done so just once. He is the 6th-highest paid forward in the league - $9.25 million next year - but the only one among the top 20 highest-paid forwards whose team did not make the playoffs. And what you call an injury Rod Brind-A'Mour would have called a hangnail. If he wasn't ready to go he should have sat out and got healthy, and if he was ready to go, no excuses.

 

Year after year, management (management which is now thankfully gone) and many fans have made excuses for Eric. It's time he leads, puts up numbers and plays at a level worthy of his mammoth salary. If moving him to the wing increases his chances of doing that and our chances of winning, why would we not do it?

 

Oh,  I have no problem moving him to wing and bumping Jordan up to 1C. I think that'd be a phenomenal line. I think I misunderstood what your overall point was, I thought you were saying we should trade him. The only thing that would keep a 12-11-28 line from happening is not having a competent 2C. I don't think Lindholm is ready for that right now and I wouldn't put Nash there either. 

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