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Caniac5

Welcome Back, Gleason!

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Not sure what Cinco and Kjun are complaining about, but in terms of Muller it's clearly they who were sleeping for the past two years. Blaming the coach (be it Muller or Maurice) for the cozy, unaccountable relationship E Staal had with the GM and for trades/no-signs (Gleason and Rosie) made by a GM who mortgaged the farm to Staal, signed Semin long term waaaay too soon, and nurtured the delusion that having the whole Staal family play together would be more appealing to fans than WINNING HOCKEY GAMES is about as valid as blaming the the stick boy. JR's coddling of Eric undercut the coach, simple as that. Muller (and I'll wager Maurice - of whom I was never a fan anyway) didn't lose the room; they tried to hold our supposed franchise player accountable and were called out for it by his protector, JR.

 

I think the strides of our youngsters under Muller is pretty telling. They bought in and ignored all the drama. Eric's been a crybaby on the ice and off, and Ronnie seems determined to change that. Rosie gave 110 percent every shift he played, and even when he struggled, Timmy did too. For their efforts they got dumped - and our captain kept coasting.

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top-shelf, I'm not sure your point here. "clearly they who were sleeping for the past two years" is what I'm referring to from your post.

Can't see what your points about Staal,Semin et. and their "cozy relationship with JR has to do with my opinion on the value of Tim Gleason. It was apparent that Gleason floundered toward the end of his time here. Do you disagree with that?

2nd, did he not appear to refind his game when traded to Toronto?

That was my point, pure and simple. I believe that he still has the ability to contribute, and I believe that the way he was being asked to play under Muller, for what ever reason and by whom, was not the way he needs to play.

Now, as to your contention as to the "cozyness" of Staal's relationship to our former Gm, I am in complete agreement with you and have posted that on numerous occasions.

Finally, as to "the youngsters playing better", "JR's coddling of E Staal", and The discussion of LaRose, I never mentioned any of that, however you final statement "Rosie gave 110% every shift he played, and even when he struggled, TIMMY did too" seems to underscore my value of TG, thus, I'm not sure why you feel the need to call me out!

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What I get here is, Gleason (and maybe even Rosie) underperformed and it's the coach's fault, even with them giving 110%.  Staals underperformed, and it was their fault.

 

This makes a ton of sense.

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Tim is not a $4 million 1st pairing defenseman anymore. He's a $1 million 3rd (maybe second) pairing defenseman. He did have a concussion in preseason last year, which is especially relevant to a physical player which Tim at his best has been. With no long-term commitment, I think this is a good signing. Worth the chance.

Welcome back, Tim.

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If Tim Gleason causes us to miss the playoffs then our chances weren't really that great to begin with.  It's really the same defense, in terms of talent...so, whatever.  I don't get all the hand-wringing over what one posters opinion is over another.

Edited by coastal_caniac

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top-shelf, I'm not sure your point here. "clearly they who were sleeping for the past two years" is what I'm referring to from your post.

Can't see what your points about Staal,Semin et. and their "cozy relationship with JR has to do with my opinion on the value of Tim Gleason. It was apparent that Gleason floundered toward the end of his time here. Do you disagree with that?

2nd, did he not appear to refind his game when traded to Toronto?

That was my point, pure and simple. I believe that he still has the ability to contribute, and I believe that the way he was being asked to play under Muller, for what ever reason and by whom, was not the way he needs to play.

Now, as to your contention as to the "cozyness" of Staal's relationship to our former Gm, I am in complete agreement with you and have posted that on numerous occasions.

Finally, as to "the youngsters playing better", "JR's coddling of E Staal", and The discussion of LaRose, I never mentioned any of that, however you final statement "Rosie gave 110% every shift he played, and even when he struggled, TIMMY did too" seems to underscore my value of TG, thus, I'm not sure why you feel the need to call me out!

Sorry if I misread your stated agreement with Cinco: "Thank you, Cinco! My thoughts exactly."

 

I thought it referred to all his thoughts, from which which I concluded he was blaming Muller (i.e., "Muller was a joke and that "system" he ran (if that's what you want to call it) made him and the team look "lost" on most nights. No direction and no accountability."), which, if he was, is an absolute pile of hooey that needed to be called out. JR was the most incompetent GM in hockey for the past five years, and I'm glad you apparently agree that blaming the coaches he hired and then put on a leash is foolishness.

 

My guess is that when Timmy and Rosie saw the other longest-tenured Cane - Eric - dictating to the coach (thru JR) they wanted the same consideration. When JR denied them of it, their sh*t meters were full, and with good reason. They worked their butts off every shift for a fraction of what the Captain/franchise player was making, and I'm sorry, if your team has no power play for the five years you've led it and you feel no personal sense of responsibility for that, something is not right. Now there's a new sheriff (Ronnie) and Timmy seems to welcome/relish the fresh start. It's going to be very interesting to see how/if Eric responds.

 

To those saying Tim is past his prime, I'd suggest studying age stats for NHL defensemen. When experienced blue liners are in the right situation, those over 30 are faaaaaar more effective than those under, as a rule.  

Edited by top-shelf-1

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"To those saying Tim is past his prime, I'd suggest studying age stats for NHL defensemen. When experienced blue liners are in the right situation, those over 30 are faaaaaar more effective than those under, as a rule. "

Niclas Wallin

Dennis Seidenberg

Just to name 2 :)

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"To those saying Tim is past his prime, I'd suggest studying age stats for NHL defensemen. When experienced blue liners are in the right situation, those over 30 are faaaaaar more effective than those under, as a rule. "

Niclas Wallin

Dennis Seidenberg

Just to name 2 :)

Don't remind me about Seids.  That was the wrong time to play budget team.

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"To those saying Tim is past his prime, I'd suggest studying age stats for NHL defensemen. When experienced blue liners are in the right situation, those over 30 are faaaaaar more effective than those under, as a rule. "

Niclas Wallin

Dennis Seidenberg

Just to name 2 :)

Doug Harvey

Tim Horton

Chris Chelios

Zdeno Chara

Sergei Gonchar

Kimmo Timonen

Dan Boyle

Mark Streit

 

and how about Hainsey, Harrison and Liles?!

Don't remind me about Seids.  That was the wrong time to play budget team.

Yup, probably our worst move ever, in terms of what we needed at the time - although J Willy is a close second.

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So what I'm taking away from this thread is...

 

1) Tim is better than having a drunk guy on D

2) He's cheap, therefore it's an ok move

3) His stats really aren't that bad for his age...and...

4) He played well in TOR---guess that's why they bought him out?

5) All teams have to take on crappy players---it's part of the NHL

 

This fanbase has truly lost its mind. He's a cheap, barely-serviceable player and therefore we should welcome him back with open arms? Just dumb. Tim does not make the team better. That has to be the only real measuring stick now. Is the team better with Tim? Not even close in my opinion. This is it Canes. Put a winner on the ice this year or I'm out for good.

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So what I'm taking away from this thread is...

 

1) Tim is better than having a drunk guy on D

2) He's cheap, therefore it's an ok move

3) His stats really aren't that bad for his age...and...

4) He played well in TOR---guess that's why they bought him out?

5) All teams have to take on crappy players---it's part of the NHL

 

This fanbase has truly lost its mind. He's a cheap, barely-serviceable player and therefore we should welcome him back with open arms? Just dumb. Tim does not make the team better. That has to be the only real measuring stick now. Is the team better with Tim? Not even close in my opinion. This is it Canes. Put a winner on the ice this year or I'm out for good.

 

I would argue that he does. Is it a "leaps and bounds" improvement? No. But he does provide better depth than we had before we signed him.

 

Regardless of whether he's slotted on the 3rd pair or as a #7 (please don't overslot him on the 2nd), what you have to compare him against is our AHL prospect pool (because that's what we have). If you think our AHL talent would outperform him, then he doesn't help the team. If they wouldn't, then he's an improvement. I believe it's the latter.

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I get it. He's a warm body and he can still "contribute."

 

My problem is that I'm about done supporting this team financially. I'm a full STH and I can honestly say that I have not received good value for my money. Bringing Tim back just tells me that this team is light years away from truly competing and having people welcome him back just fans the flames.

 

If I'm just sitting home watching for free, then I guess I really dont care who is on the team. But I contribute money and maybe more importantly a lot of time on this team. These types of moves tell me that the team is not capable of competing now or in the future. How many NTC lists are we on? Does anyone good even want to play here? Overall, this has been a terribly frustrating off-season. I really expected therm to go after someone decent. Instead we get Tim back? Geesh.

 

 

 

I would argue that he does. Is it a "leaps and bounds" improvement? No. But he does provide better depth than we had before we signed him.

 

Regardless of whether he's slotted on the 3rd pair or as a #7 (please don't overslot him on the 2nd), what you have to compare him against is our AHL prospect pool (because that's what we have). If you think our AHL talent would outperform him, then he doesn't help the team. If they wouldn't, then he's an improvement. I believe it's the latter.

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I feel your pain weehawk, and there isn't a sole up here that would not like to have picked up some talent.  Talent cost money and talent has the option (in most cases these days) to pick where they end up.  If YOU were a player, given our track record since 2007, would you want to come here.  Hell no, I wouldn't.  With us sitting on huge contracts, with underperforming players, I think the hands were tied this year as to what type of players could be targeted, and I think RF is trying his best to spend the available dollars as wisely as he can.  He certainly has not hurt us short or long term, IMO, with the contracts that he has taken on.  When it gets right down to it, the best we can hope for this year is that the new GM and Coach relationship is one in which there is a chain of command, if you will, and that the coach is allowed to utilize the hammer as he calls it to get people on board and play with some damn heart and act like they want to win.  If that happens, I think the culture will change and we will get the attention and consideration of those talented players.  If it don't, I don't think you will have to worry about those season tickets many more seasons.

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I really believe that, if healthy, getting Gleason back could be the bargain of the year. Two years ago he played with a broken foot. Last year he was hurt in pre season, and he seemed to be frustrated with the coaching. Just a bit over four years ago, he was an Olympian, and emerging as a very good Dman. I think he could still have some good hockey ahead of him.

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top-shelf 1, clearly I should have made my points more specific as to agreeing with the poster on his views of Gleason alone. Sorry.

 

And to weehawk, like Drama much? I'm also an STHer, and have been for multiple years. We drive 175 mi/game, eat the arena food on almost every occasion and make several more trips to various other events. Have I enjoyed the down turn since '09, no, but I'd 100x take being in the PNC arena over sitting at home, but that's just me. Perhaps you were not around before hockey came to this area, and quite frankly, I'm a later life convert to the sport, but you can take all the other sports (and you might prefer), but in my humble opinion, nothing compares to hockey. This rant is likely not going to sway you, but please get your facts correct prior to flying off the handle. Your point #1 is purely juvenile, point #3 does not consider Tim's style of play and point#4 is misconstrued without any basis.

 

As allboys subsequently attempts to point out, JR appears to have fleed the sinking ship prior to it submerging ironically. Ron simply appears to have been left with very little wiggle room FOR THE TIME BEING. To me, there are good things on the horizon, presently if no more than a unified coaching effort between our new, and very apparently no nonsense GM, and his similar minded coach. While it may take another year, and I personally pray it doesn't, I'll stick around to the bitter end, because to paraphrase "A bad night at the hockey rink is better than a good day anywhere else".

Edited by KJUNKANE

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Tim is not a $4 million 1st pairing defenseman anymore. He's a $1 million 3rd (maybe second) pairing defenseman. He did have a concussion in preseason last year, which is especially relevant to a physical player which Tim at his best has been. With no long-term commitment, I think this is a good signing. Worth the chance.

Welcome back, Tim.

 

 

Very well said, bluedevil!!!

 

Now, like most things in life, you can't please all the people all the time!  We will all see what Timmy brings to the ice soon!  I, for one, just want to see hockey again!!!

 

GO CANES!

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Regardless of what happens this year, I'm surprised that no one has pointed out how slick a move JR made last year.  Basically, he turned Gleason's $8m 2-year contract into a $1.2m 1-year contract, all at the expense of the Leafs. And picked up Liles in the process. :razz:

 

(and for the record, I expect Liles to have a nice season for us this year) 

Edited by LakeLivin

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 While it may take another year, and I personally pray it doesn't, I'll stick around to the bitter end, because to paraphrase "A bad night at the hockey rink is better than a good day anywhere else".

Exactly!  Although I betting on a 2 year turnaround.

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Regardless of what happens this year, I'm surprised that no one has pointed out how slick a move JR made last year. Basically, he turned Gleason's $8m 2-year contract into a $1.2m 1-year contract, all at the expense of the Leafs. And picked up Liles in the process. :razz:

(and for the record, I expect Liles to have a nice season for us this year)

I was also thinking this the other day.

Actually RF made it into a slick move. JR only made the initial swap that was OK but far from slick, just a move.

Ronnie went to Toronto with a BOGO coupon!

Edited by Whattausay

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I get it. He's a warm body and he can still "contribute."

 

My problem is that I'm about done supporting this team financially. I'm a full STH and I can honestly say that I have not received good value for my money. Bringing Tim back just tells me that this team is light years away from truly competing and having people welcome him back just fans the flames.

 

If I'm just sitting home watching for free, then I guess I really dont care who is on the team. But I contribute money and maybe more importantly a lot of time on this team. These types of moves tell me that the team is not capable of competing now or in the future. How many NTC lists are we on? Does anyone good even want to play here? Overall, this has been a terribly frustrating off-season. I really expected therm to go after someone decent. Instead we get Tim back? Geesh.

If you feel you're not getting your money's worth, maybe you should look at the players getting the largest percentage of it. We're paying Eric Staal 9.25 million this year. If he takes the same number of shots next season as he did last, that's $40k+ per shot. If his brother Jordan matches his shot output, he'll be a relative bargain at $36k+ per shot. These are our number-one and -two centers.

 

Alex? 210 shots. $33k per if that number doesn't change.

 

Meanwhile, our top goal scorer was ninth in the league in shots, had a better shooting percentage (12%) than any of those guys (and I mean, it's not even close - particularly with the Staals) and every shot he took cost us "just" $22k.

 

Our D is not the source of your disdain. Until we find a PP and/or shoot a whole lot more at even strength, you're likely to continue feeling ripped off. It sure sounds like we have a coach/GM combo in place that is determined to make both those things happen. We'll soon know if they put their money where their mouths are.

Edited by top-shelf-1

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When you rank 25th, 25th, 26th, 28th, and 22nd in the league in total defense over the last 5 years (09-10 thru 13-14), I would say that points to the defense as being a big issue, irrespective of our other problems that were mentioned.  It's most certainly a source of my frustration-disdain.

Edited by coastal_caniac

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What about the goal tending?

 

Last 5 years "shots against" stat...21st, 26th, 30th, 30th, and 22nd.  Of course, if you want to throw the goalie under the bus for being a bulls eye, go right ahead.  It all starts with defense.  No question that Ward has had his issues, but he isn't the only one.

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