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PenaltyKiller17

Honestly, Isn't it the perfect time for a rebuild?

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I realize it's early in the season, but now may be the perfect time to bring this up.

Now i've always been a glass half full person with this team. always right behin Remkin. However i feel like the hockey gods are trying to tell us something the past 3 months. This team has relied on a lot of stars to fall into place to even be a bubble team. And i've lumped us in with the rangers & canadians as bubble teams similar in talent and structure. The difference between us and them is they've been willing to spend the money to get the RIGHT missing piece or two to push them over the hump. As a result of that they played each others in the conference finals.

As more time passes, the more evident it is that JR completely destroyed this team. Expectations were high at the start of the 09-10 season, and we not only imploded similarly to last season, but he JR was giving away players, and let Whitney walk for nothing. Next season he let Cole walk for nothing. You look at what's left from the core of the 09-10 season, it's just Staal & Ward, who've both had some serious injuries the past few years. Our contracts are awful. all eric/jordan/semin/skinner/ward make at least 1-2mil annually too much, which would be enough money to get another high level talent. Our draft has been worse, with only Skinner & Faulk (and now apparently Lindholm) being the only NHL level prospects we've drafted since our last playoff appearance.

Speaking of Eric.... I don't want to get into the common complaints about his injuries, slow starts etc. I want to talk about his current problems this preseason. I've been going to the offseason drills and at least half the training camp practices. And he hasn't looked good at all. He looks tired, and after every drill Peters runs he makes the team skate a lap. I always look at him, and he never puts the effort into it. The game has gotten a lot faster the past few years, defensive players are getting quicker, and i don't think he's adjusted to it, which is sad bc he was always considered our best skater. In general, i just don't have a good feeling about him going into the season. So much was stressed this offseason about him having no more life-lines, and this being his last chance to lead this team before he gets shipped off. He has not made that situation better on himself so far.

And with the likelihood of the same problems arising, in addition to all these other injuries to key players, is it time to call it quits on our core?

Or better yet, when was the last time Carolina can say they drafted a generational player? It might be Francis by the Hartford Whalers. Connor McDavid is projected to be better than payers like Toews, Stamkos, Mckinnon, Tavares. Do we really want to pass a situation like that up? I mean at this point, our best 2 players are in their 30's, inconsistent and injury prone. Ideally, you want to already have a consistent core to just add minor too, which we don't have. Realistically, the odds of winning another cup with Eric at the helm are pretty low. At this point, just making the playoffs would be an accomplishment in itself. And with a deep draft and a shallow prospect pool, wouldn't it be best to trade him now? In today's league, quality free agents are becoming scarce, and more times than not, hop on a bandwagon.

We do have a lot of good young pieces with guys like

Skinner

Lindholm

Jordan

Gerbe

Tlusty

Faulk

Sekera

Khudobin

who have proven themselves as guys that can produce at a high level. To me, that's a great core.

IF we could shed salaries like Cam & Liles, and trade Eric for a 1st rounder and a top 4 dman (something like Letang/Phaneuf) who could set a better example than guys like Gleason, and who could match up with Fleury some day. If we could draft 1st overall, it would be great.

Lastly, i'm NOT saying we should tank. So i'd want to hear something other than, "Nobody should be cheering for the canes to lost".

Edited by PenaltyKiller17

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Now i've always been a glass half full person with this team. always right behin Remkin.  However i feel like the hockey gods are trying to tell us something the past 3 months.  T

 

Well, you yourself said the gods are against the Canes.  Why would they be with the Canes next June?

 

The team can tank, be worst, and still very easily lose the McDavid pick.

 

Now, I am in agreement that RF should start getting his ducks in a row to be a trader mid-season.  Be ready, RF.

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PK17, Not that I don't think your plan has merit, and surely the level of frustration for all of us seems

to be ever amplifying, but, "tank". Now I don't know your situation, nor will I resort to pulling the STH

card, but when I invest in 41 games, together with the stress I have in just getting away from work on each of those occasions, combined with the gas cost and a "meal" for two, how do you imagine I, and I'm sure

several others in my similar situation, feel when this solution, no matter how heart-felt, is proposed?

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We haven't played a regular season game yet so I don't see how you can pull the rug from under not only Peters but also RF when it comes to what they're trying to do.  Later on in the season maybe, but what would the message be about our new coach and GM if they're not given at least a little time to address problems?

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If this team isn't solidly in playoff contention, or at least hovering around the bubble by Christmas, then we probably aren't going to be this season.  So, at that point, you become active in divesting yourself of some of these big contracts, and begin building a different lineup.  A lineup that RF and Peters have control over building.

 

But until then, you move forward and try and win hockey games.  There are several young players here that will be around for a while.  Personally, I'm excited to watch them, regardless of W's and L's.

 

We are building a new, young core.  This season will go a long way in defining who plays with those guys in the future.

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If this team isn't solidly in playoff contention, or at least hovering around the bubble by Christmas, then we probably aren't going to be this season.  So, at that point, you become active in divesting yourself of some of these big contracts, and begin building a different lineup.  A lineup that RF and Peters have control over building.

 

But until then, you move forward and try and win hockey games.  There are several young players here that will be around for a while.  Personally, I'm excited to watch them, regardless of W's and L's.

 

We are building a new, young core.  This season will go a long way in defining who plays with those guys in the future.

Excellent post, and I mostly agree.  However, I expect a rough start until Peters gets things sorted out, as well as the players assimilating into a better unit.  So if by Christmas that is coming together and heading in the right direction, then keep what fits and discard what doesn't.  I suppose that would put them in contention or hovering at the bubble, but more than likely not and hopefully simply heading in that direction after a rough start.

 

If neither of our scenarios unfold, then go with full blown rebuild and wholesale changes by the trade deadline.

Edited by Manwolf

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If this team isn't solidly in playoff contention, or at least hovering around the bubble by Christmas, then we probably aren't going to be this season. So, at that point, you become active in divesting yourself of some of these big contracts, and begin building a different lineup. A lineup that RF and Peters have control over building.

But until then, you move forward and try and win hockey games. There are several young players here that will be around for a while. Personally, I'm excited to watch them, regardless of W's and L's.

We are building a new, young core. This season will go a long way in defining who plays with those guys in the future.

This is the point I was trying to make. I'm not suggesting we tank at all. Don't even want there to be a debate. I'm just saying a mood has been set the past few months. Top guys have been dropping like flies, and we haven't looked good overall. It just seems like status quo, like we're due for the same injuries and what if's.

If, like coastal said, we don't start well again, it maybe time for a change.

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It is way too early to go into panic mode.  Just need to realize that most "experts" have us as picked to finish last in the Metro division hope that Francis/Peters can somehow build an us vs world mentality and them go out to prove the "experts" as wrong

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This is the point I was trying to make. I'm not suggesting we tank at all. Don't even want there to be a debate. I'm just saying a mood has been set the past few months. Top guys have been dropping like flies, and we haven't looked good overall. It just seems like status quo, like we're due for the same injuries and what if's.

If, like coastal said, we don't start well again, it maybe time for a change.

PK - You may not have intended to, but you specifically said we should tank in your OP, lol: "Lastly, i'm saying we should tank."

 

And you left out the part about "if we don't start well again, it's maybe time for a change".  It sounded like you meant right now, without even giving the guys a chance to play a few games,  ;) 

Edited by LakeLivin

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Good catch. I really meant to put a not in there. I don't believe in tanking.

I just look at the Crosby situation. He took a team that was on the brink of bankruptcy/relocation to a powerhouse. We could use something like that.

Edited by PenaltyKiller17

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Actually, it looks like we have a lot of agreement on this thread.  But many of us are a bit upset over things lately and are having trouble properly posting our thoughts without errors or confusion (myself included).

 

manwolf and coastal: your posts above are excellent and speak for many of us.

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From where I sit it appears we have been rebuilding longer then it would take to restore the pyramids. Yet I find myself in agreement with most of you. If this team isn't competitive and is sinking we need to look at how to dump contracts, restructuring through trades and rebuilding though the draft.

 

I'm hoping the young guns on this team find a way to win and the team will be able to add to the roster not replace the team by trade deadline.

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You are onto something PK, but where I, and I think many here, disagree slightly is with the phrase "perfect time". Timing is the issue. I strongly suspect that Francis tested the waters on Ward, E, and Semin, and maybe even J, and found the waters frigid. The return on Ward was worse than a compliance buyout and would have cost the team future picks to move him. Don't know on E and Semin, but my guess is that GM's did not want to take on those salaries and give much back based on last year's play. So he determined, not that it didn't need to happen, but that it exactly was not good timing.

 

So the decision was made to have a frank discussion with E and give him one more shot. As much as some are writing him off, just two years ago he finished the season around a PPG. That is elite. Worth a shot at least. Semin...same thing. Ward....ditto.

 

Now, I do tend to be glass half full, at least when it's feasable, and certainly at the start of the  year.

 

It is very tough to watch J go down and then ?Skinner, then ?Lindholm. Now Boychuk flames out. So right this very moment it is hard. But if Skinner pulls through and Linholm is ok, I'm still not ready to blow it up.

 

THAT SAID, if we get to a point early (25-30 games), or half way  where it just isn't working, this is a good year to pick up draft picks. Not just the two generational guys, but a very deep draft. And I have little doubt that's what will happen in that case. That is the plan. And that will be the perfect time. Everyone will realize it had to be done. Some pieces might have some value.

 

But not now. It may very well come to that. If Skinner is out for any length of time....I'd almost bet on it. But not now.

 

If Skinner gets back ok, and Linholm is basically OK, we still have a shot. The glass still has some liquid in it.

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I know it was only a preseason game, but Sunday's game was just more of the same from most of this group of veterans we have put on the ice for the last several seasons.

 

I wasn't really expecting anybody to jump over the boards to pound the responsible person for Skinner's injury.  That's what enforcers do, and they are a waste of ice, IMO.

 

Obviously we aren't a physical team.  We are a speed and skill team.  So, the response to Skinner's injury I had hoped to see was the supposed leadership of this group of players to elevate their individual play, and as a result, elevate the play of the entire team. 

 

Instead, we seemed to find another excuse to just give up. 

 

No amount of skill will make up for heart, and a desire to do anything humanely possible for the guys who sit next to you in that room.

 

If we continue in this path, I have no doubt what will happen come closer to the deadline. 

 

Maybe this market would be better off with less highly-skilled (and paid) players, as opposed to a deep lineup of good players with a heart and mind to play the game for each other and the fans.

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As long as RF can see the real picture come trade deadline time, I'll be fine. JR's inability to accept that the Canes needed to be sellers and not hangers on to false hope, hurt this organization. Let's win some hockey games now. If that doesn't happen, chart a new course. We end up in the same ditch far too often.

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If it isn't coming together by December 1, I think it is time to light the fuse without a doubt.  The problem is.....who are you going to get to take your inflated contracts?  How are you going to get rid of the pieces that may or may not be the problem?  Nobody else is going to want them, unless we retain salary, then what do we have?  Buy them out and what do you use to get more players?  Especially on the tight budget that it appears PK has placed on RF.

 

It appears that we are in a situation that will probably force us to wait out the contracts that are in place before we can start a rebuild.  I am no expert by any means, somebody please tell me that I am looking at it wrong and that there is a way out of it that I don't foresee.

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If it isn't coming together by December 1, I think it is time to light the fuse without a doubt.  The problem is.....who are you going to get to take your inflated contracts?  How are you going to get rid of the pieces that may or may not be the problem?  Nobody else is going to want them, unless we retain salary, then what do we have?  Buy them out and what do you use to get more players?  Especially on the tight budget that it appears PK has placed on RF.

 

It appears that we are in a situation that will probably force us to wait out the contracts that are in place before we can start a rebuild.  I am no expert by any means, somebody please tell me that I am looking at it wrong and that there is a way out of it that I don't foresee.

Yeah I agree.

 

I think Staal and Ward will be around until their contract is up at least.

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This team is without two of its premier players. Take two top players off of any team and they probably wont win much. The team doesn't have to purposely tank. We are going to be bad. Real bad. Like Buffalo bad.

 

We will be deadline sellers and we'll end up in the hunt for McDavid/Eichel. The problem is that during the process, the Canes are going to lose a big chunk of the fan base that is still left. What happens if we dont land one of these guys? It's a big gamble for a small market southern team to take. I get the impression that PK is killing this team for his own eventual financial gain. Look what Wang did with the Isles.

 

To watch them do basically nothing in the off-season tells me that they have no intention of trying to win much of anything, let alone a Cup. Folks think that we have some talented kids who can make a difference down the road. I've seen almost every game for the last 5 years. I've not seen much raw talent in any of the youngsters. Other than Faulk/Skinner, our youngsters have been mediocre and none are future all-stars.

 

 

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Yeah I agree.

I think Staal and Ward will be around until their contract is up at least.

While I think Ward's contract is tough to move, I don't think Staal would be hard to move at all. He only has one more year left after this one, so if we moved him at the deadline, the receiving team won't have to pay his whole salary.

And this is an offensive starving league, so a former 100pt scorer would be a commodity. I could see a contender or a Canadian team trying to trade for him. Hints why I said a Staal for Phaneuf/draft pick could work.

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You are onto something PK, but where I, and I think many here, disagree slightly is with the phrase "perfect time". Timing is the issue. I strongly suspect that Francis tested the waters on Ward, E, and Semin, and maybe even J, and found the waters frigid. The return on Ward was worse than a compliance buyout and would have cost the team future picks to move him. Don't know on E and Semin, but my guess is that GM's did not want to take on those salaries and give much back based on last year's play. So he determined, not that it didn't need to happen, but that it exactly was not good timing.

 

So the decision was made to have a frank discussion with E and give him one more shot. As much as some are writing him off, just two years ago he finished the season around a PPG. That is elite. Worth a shot at least. Semin...same thing. Ward....ditto.

 

Now, I do tend to be glass half full, at least when it's feasable, and certainly at the start of the  year.

 

It is very tough to watch J go down and then ?Skinner, then ?Lindholm. Now Boychuk flames out. So right this very moment it is hard. But if Skinner pulls through and Linholm is ok, I'm still not ready to blow it up.

 

THAT SAID, if we get to a point early (25-30 games), or half way  where it just isn't working, this is a good year to pick up draft picks. Not just the two generational guys, but a very deep draft. And I have little doubt that's what will happen in that case. That is the plan. And that will be the perfect time. Everyone will realize it had to be done. Some pieces might have some value.

 

But not now. It may very well come to that. If Skinner is out for any length of time....I'd almost bet on it. But not now.

 

If Skinner gets back ok, and Linholm is basically OK, we still have a shot. The glass still has some liquid in it.

Well said, Rem. I'm not so sure Ronie would have floated Semin; my gut tells me Ronnie was instrumental in his acquisition and feels he can be a leader on the next incarnation of the 'Canes. 

 

I think this year will tell us a lot about the will of the other three. Jordan certainly has a challenge before him, as do the other two. Cam looked really sharp in his last game, but we've seen that before. Let's see him sharp for 10, 15, 20 games. That will tell me Cam is not through, and wants to play, and doesn't care where.

 

Eric is a guy who, at least according to his PR, can dominate hockey games. When did we last see him do so? New Year's Eve, I'd say. He's on a line with proven chemistry, so let's see him take charge in 5 games between now and NYE 2014. Then maybe HE wants to play, too.

 

I said it last year: this team is already in rebuild mode. They're just doing it without publicly confirming it, because in a market this small, every STH matters.

Edited by top-shelf-1

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While I think Ward's contract is tough to move, I don't think Staal would be hard to move at all. He only has one more year left after this one, so if we moved him at the deadline, the receiving team won't have to pay his whole salary.

And this is an offensive starving league, so a former 100pt scorer would be a commodity. I could see a contender or a Canadian team trying to trade for him. Hints why I said a Staal for Phaneuf/draft pick could work.

Agreed. The scuttlebutt among the hockey punditry is that E needs a change of scene. But Phaneuf? You're killin' me!

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Ward is not tradable for a variety of reasons:

1. Poor play

2. High salary

3. Saturated market

Staal is very tradable! I think the best partner would be Montreal for a variety of reasons:

1. Staal would likely waive his NTC to go there

2. They have the commodities (Galchenyuk) to get a deal done

3. They have publicly been looking for a big center

Edited by cclifford10

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I'm not saying it's all that possible but honestly the best play we can get out of the guys now strengthens our ability to rebuild.  If we can't find some worth in guys like Ward we're never going to get a rebuild that isn't more than a reshuffle.  If Ron decided to have a fire sale tomorrow I won;t complain but for now we're stuck with wasted money lying around.

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Ward is not tradable for a variety of reasons:

1. Poor play

2. High salary

3. Saturated market

Staal is very tradable! I think the best partner would be Montreal for a variety of reasons:

1. Staal would likely waive his NTC to go there

2. They have the commodities (Galchenyuk) to get a deal done

3. They have publicly been looking for a big center

 

This is why timing is everything. 

 

If E. comes out and gets off to an uncharacteristic good start. And he and Semin and Tlusty are back to their good stuff, but the lack of second line and average defense costs us and we drift down in the pack. E. would be even more tradeable and bring a substantial return. A player and a first round pick....etc. Likewise if Ward gets back to form and the team decides to rebuild with Khudini, suddenly Ward brings a first rounder and maybe more. 

 

Further, at that point is it obvious to the fan base that this needs to happen, especially heading into a very deep draft. 

 

I do think that this was plan B. It is looking more like Plan B + with our current injuries and if anything else goes wrong, will slide into plan A. 

 

But even if we knew with crystal ball certainty that we are lottery bound right now, we should still bide our time for the reasons listed.

 

 

Edited by remkin

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