Jump to content
The Official Site of the Carolina Hurricanes
Sign in to follow this  
PenaltyKiller17

Honestly, Isn't it the perfect time for a rebuild?

Recommended Posts

You don't lose J Staal and Skinner and expect to be the same team you had projected going into the season. We know J is out until at least January and maybe February. We have no idea about Skinner.  I suspect Francis is looking around to see who is available. If we are rebuilding I don't see RF looking for a temporary replacement but shopping for someone that will stay with the team long term. That seems to be his goal. Deal with the now but always look to the future. That won't be an easy trade for us to make but it is one IMO we have to make.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah but at some point we are the black knight in Monty Python's Holy Grail.

 

 

J goes down: "It's just a flesh wound'.

 

Skinner drops: "I've had worse."

 

 

One more and we're a torso on the ground yelling at the league: "Alright, we'll call it a draw."

 

 

But i do agree Francis is not moving off the "first do no harm" to the "future Canes" plan.
That's the plan and we're sticking to it.

 

 

I do think that evaluation is part of it. But the evaluation so far shows one guy who seems to be ready (Rask), and a whole lot of guys who are being evaluated in the AHL. 

 

 

Edited by remkin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jared Staal will be the 4th line center before Ronnie brings in anyone else. That's how I see it.

 

Some may mistake that for Ronnie not caring, I take it that we're finally bucking trends of bringing in useless 3rd-4th line waiver pick ups to try to fix top line problems.

 

Heck if we find out Rask is a 50 point getter on the 2nd line, I know that's high but if we find that out we'd have NEVER found that out under JR.

Edited by legend-1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just don't buy this. I think RF will move slow and deliberate but you can't be a GM in this league and sit back and watch.

 

Even a rebuild needs the right tools.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, with lineups being due to the league today, when is this move going to happen?  Seriously, that's exactly what Francis is doing, sitting back and watching.  The coach said as much.

 

But as Legend pointed out, this is being confused with doing nothing, which is far from factual.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with Legend and Coastal, and think the hiring of Nieuwendyk is confirmation of it. Ronnie is starting at the very bottom, building a foundation and allowing those currently under contract to show they deserve to be included. Those that don't, adios.

 

I think Ronnie, Brindy and Peters are committed to building something lasting and perennially competitive here, supported by a first-rate player development system. Ronnie has already said as much. I would not be surprised if he and Brindy (and perhaps, later, Peters) are part of any group that eventually buys out PK. Ronnie has invested his whole life in this organization. Brindy saw firsthand, while in Philly, what is possible for a Stanley Cup-winning captain. And Peters just left a team so trusted by its coach that he is beginning the season without a contract.

 

Here's hoping. 

Edited by top-shelf-1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agreed. The scuttlebutt among the hockey punditry is that E needs a change of scene. But Phaneuf? You're killin' me!

If we were to trade Eric, I would want a top 4 Dmen back as well as a pick. I was using Phaneuf as an example. Although the thought of him partnered with Fleury has some promise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In my opinion, these are the players (at the NHL level) who have already earned their place here:

 

Lindy

Rask

Skinner (if he plays again, tho I hope he's smart enough not to)

Terry

Gerbe

Nash

Brown

Boychuk

Murphy

Faulk

Sekera

Hainsey

Semin

 

Average age 22.69, but three old hands. Everyone else is on the bubble.

 

Everybody else? On the bubble.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If we were to trade Eric, I would want a top 4 Dmen back as well as a pick. I was using Phaneuf as an example. Although the thought of him partnered with Fleury has some promise.

Whew! Okay. His size would be nice on the back end, if he can figure out how to play smart again. He sure has been playing stupid lately.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think the team is looking to do anything other than evaluate what we have in the system.  How much clearer does that have to be?

 

It's very clear, just hard to accept.  Seems like there's got to be a way for an NHL GM to evaluate what's in the system without jeopardizing an entire season, which is what I'm afraid of at this point.  

 

Jared Staal will be the 4th line center before Ronnie brings in anyone else. That's how I see it.

 

Some may mistake that for Ronnie not caring, I take it that we're finally bucking trends of bringing in useless 3rd-4th line waiver pick ups to try to fix top line problems.

 

Heck if we find out Rask is a 50 point getter on the 2nd line, I know that's high but if we find that out we'd have NEVER found that out under JR.

 

I don't  want to bring in useless 3rd-4th line waiver pick ups to try to fix top line problems but I would like a competitive 3rd and 4th line to supplement the top line if it returns to form.  And, I believe as a small market team, the best chance we have of doing that is by finding "value" that other teams have overlooked.   Or by taking a chance that might not work out, but that doesn't cost much if it doesn't.  We're not a Detroit or Montreal with the luxury of buying the finest ingredients for our recipes.  We may have to throw several things at the wall before something sticks.  

 

And surely there's a better way to find out what Rask can be than throwing a 21 year old kid with no NHL experience onto the 2nd line and saying "have at it"?  What about the concept of player development in order to maximize the chance of success (granted, we need a lot of improvement in the actual implementation of such, but you know what I mean :P).

_______________________________________

---------------------------------------------------------------

 

When it comes to the question of whether to "tear it down and rebuild", what do we learn if the top 2 lines do prove to be competitive but that still doesn't get us over the top?  Common opinion seems to be that you need 4 solid lines to be competitive at the highest levels. Do you tear down a piece that is working to build up a piece that isn't? And how do you evaluate how Peters is doing if he doesn't have the pieces to work with?

 

Hey, I'm all for better evaluation & chances for developing our youth.  But if that's the primary reason we're standing pat (and personally, I don't think it necessarily is; I think a lot of it might have to do with PKs wallet), then I see it as a problem with RF. He's got to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time (I don't mean that as an insult, I just used the term as the easiest way to get the idea across).  Lastly, on PKs wallet; he indicated that he mostly was against spending more but seemed to leave open the possibility of laying out a bit more if appropriate.  I see part of RFs responsibility to be finding low risk/ cost possibilities (Gerbe, Manny, hopefully Tolchinsky somewhere down the road) and selling PK on laying out a bit more $.

 

I hope it doesn't sound like I'm all negative on RF.  I like what he did with the coaches and the overall tone he seems to be bringing. It's hard to be impressed with his personnel moves, because he basically hasn't made any.

Edited by LakeLivin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 And surely there's a better way to find out what Rask can be than throwing a 21 year old kid with no NHL experience onto the 2nd line and saying "have at it"?  What about the concept of player development in order to maximize the chance of success (granted, we need a lot of improvement in the actual implementation of such, but you know what I mean :P).

 

I don't think Rask is being thrown out there by default.  I think he earned it in camp.  Granted, I think he earned 3rd line center duties and he is moving up due to injury, which is very common place in the NHL.  Going back to when he was drafted, it was said that he had 2nd line potential.  He spent three years developing and now he's ready to give it a try. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's very clear, just hard to accept.  Seems like there's got to be a way for an NHL GM to evaluate what's in the system without jeopardizing an entire season, which is what I'm afraid of at this point.  

One season is a small price to pay if we are truly building for the long term, trying to create a deep organization like a Detroit or Boston or Philly or Chicago with just bottomless talented youth. Peters saw what that can achieve firsthand in Detroit last year, where something like half their NHL players were in Grand Rapids the year before and the club still made the playoffs.  

 

Of course, it will take more than one season to build something like that. But squeaking back into the playoffs next season is possible, particularly with a guy like Niewandyk (I'm not even confirming the spelling anymore!) helping with assessment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, with lineups being due to the league today, when is this move going to happen?  Seriously, that's exactly what Francis is doing, sitting back and watching.  The coach said as much.

 

But as Legend pointed out, this is being confused with doing nothing, which is far from factual.

 

As far as I know the only requirement is you submit your opening day lineup with at least 20 players on it. I don't think there is any problem making a trade after that. I doubt the phone is ringing today, I doubt we will sell our soul for a quick fix, I imagine we will open with the lineup we see but I expect we are looking for a trade if there is one to be had.

 

If the trade makes sense you do it. Sense would mean a player you get fits into your long term plans and can help the immediate need. If Skinner can come back quickly maybe we can get by for a little while. But this idea you are going to draft your way to a Stanley Cup without making smart hockey moves is nuts.

 

Building a team through the draft is essential, relying only on the draft is not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think Rask is being thrown out there by default.  I think he earned it in camp.  Granted, I think he earned 3rd line center duties and he is moving up due to injury, which is very common place in the NHL.  Going back to when he was drafted, it was said that he had 2nd line potential.  He spent three years developing and now he's ready to give it a try. 

 

Exactly. But the move up due to injury is even more risky (right word?) given that Rask earned it (and I agree that he did earn it) almost completely based on a couple of weeks in camp and a couple of exhibition games.  When's the last time we spoke of the dangers of extrapolating based on a small sample size?  :P

 

One season is a small price to pay if we are truly building for the long term, trying to create a deep organization like a Detroit or Boston or Philly or Chicago with just bottomless talented youth. Peters saw what that can achieve firsthand in Detroit last year, where something like half their NHL players were in Grand Rapids the year before and the club still made the playoffs.  

 

Of course, it will take more than one season to build something like that. But squeaking back into the playoffs next season is possible, particularly with a guy like Niewandyk (I'm not even confirming the spelling anymore!) helping with assessment.

I agree with that too. And if we "blew it up" I'd agree that there's no choice but to sacrifice, and probably more than one season.  But we didn't blow it up; given that choice of approach I still say we should be able to build while at the same time trying to win now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, with lineups being due to the league today, when is this move going to happen?  Seriously, that's exactly what Francis is doing, sitting back and watching.  The coach said as much.

 

But as Legend pointed out, this is being confused with doing nothing, which is far from factual.

 

coastal, imo the time for a move was when it wouldn't have cost us resources in return.  It's not like we'd have had to make a long term commitment to players like Roy, Stempniak, or even taking a flier on Mueller.  And I believe a player like one of those would have made us more competitive this season as we still pursue our longer term goals.

Edited by LakeLivin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And if we "blew it up" I'd agree that there's no choice but to sacrifice, and probably more than one season.  But we didn't blow it up; given that choice of approach I still say we should be able to build while at the same time trying to win now.

That's what we've done since winning the Cup, IMO, resulting in not one or two but 8 wasted seasons (if you don't count the ONE we've made the playoffs.) This team already has been blown up, just by having a coach and GM who are determined to hold players accountable.

 

My guess is their reasoning goes something like this: If you've been drafted by an NHL team, you have the ability to learn to play at this level, with a very few exceptions (mostly goons). So what has changed with the Canes is that players are out of excuses, and it is difficult to overstate the importance of that. It is a seismic cultural shift within the organization.

 

Is Eric Staal Jonathan Toews? Is Cam Ward Mike Quick? They are sure being paid as if they are, and I think we now have a coach and manager who are insisting they earn it. I, for one, say it's about freakin' time.

Edited by top-shelf-1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As far as I know the only requirement is you submit your opening day lineup with at least 20 players on it. I don't think there is any problem making a trade after that. I doubt the phone is ringing today, I doubt we will sell our soul for a quick fix, I imagine we will open with the lineup we see but I expect we are looking for a trade if there is one to be had.

 

If the trade makes sense you do it. Sense would mean a player you get fits into your long term plans and can help the immediate need. If Skinner can come back quickly maybe we can get by for a little while. But this idea you are going to draft your way to a Stanley Cup without making smart hockey moves is nuts.

 

Building a team through the draft is essential, relying only on the draft is not.

 

How about posting up my words where I suggested we were going to draft our way to the Stanley Cup.  Actually, I never said anything at all about the draft, nothing even close. :mad:  And I certainly didn't suggest the Canes would never ever make a trade again.  That's even more ridiculous to suggest.

 

I have my own view of the situation, based upon Ron Francis and Bill Peters statements and actions over the course of the summer.  To me, it's pretty dadgum clear this is a poop or get off the pot year for everybody.  The group we have is the group we have, and they will either play to the standards that have been clearly set by the new leadership, or they will be kicking cans down the highway to another market.  After they are given a legit chance to show what they have.

 

Until then, status quo, like it or not.  That's what I suggested, and so I'll just agree to disagree. :)

Edited by coastal_caniac

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And in the interim, you have the chance to see what some of the future holds by getting a good look at prospects like Rask and Brown, and some of the more experienced younger players like Nash and Terry.  I'd also bet there will be others that get a chance as the season progresses.

 

Or, we could just use JR's approach, which I'm reading in a lot of posts here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looking for some liquid in my half full glass, I'll throw this out there. 

 

Long term if you don't have the talent you can't sustain winning. BUT we do still have some talent, and over shorter periods teams can get a lift from a bunch of younger guys who suddenly have the chance to prove it. The younger guys can invigorate and push the vets, and vice versa. IF Linholm/Rask/Gerbe come out flying it will open things up and push things for the top line, etc. 

 

We've got that going for us at least. It worked with Walker and the Rats that one year, but that was at the end of the year, still, it could happen. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd much rather see what the players left can do rather than surf the waiver wire for all the Andreas Nodl's out there.  JR was frittering away the draft picks and picking up all the almost NHLers that were cast away.  Don't believe me, look at how many ex-Canes are ex-NHLers as soon as they are cut loose from the Canes.  To me, that speaks volumes about the talent level in the organization. 

 

I think RF gets that EStaal's and Ward's values are much more if they play to their potential than the negative trade value they currently have when you factor in contracts.  His hands were tied to a certain extent and he's going to have to play this hand out and hope to hit on a long shot.  I am thrilled at the idea of building a foundation through the draft.  Yes, smart trades are a part of it, but I think JR got way too much credit for making smart trades.  In recent history, what move did JR make that was so great other than Jussi for a while?  Ruutu was okay, but I didn't like moving Ladd at the time and would love to have him back.  I thought JR made a career out of nibbling around the edges and caught lightning in a bottle in 2006. 

 

Maybe RF could have made some more free agency moves, but I think he wanted to see just what he was working with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd much rather see what the players left can do rather than surf the waiver wire for all the Andreas Nodl's out there.  JR was frittering away the draft picks and picking up all the almost NHLers that were cast away.  Don't believe me, look at how many ex-Canes are ex-NHLers as soon as they are cut loose from the Canes.  To me, that speaks volumes about the talent level in the organization. 

 

I think RF gets that EStaal's and Ward's values are much more if they play to their potential than the negative trade value they currently have when you factor in contracts.  His hands were tied to a certain extent and he's going to have to play this hand out and hope to hit on a long shot.  I am thrilled at the idea of building a foundation through the draft.  Yes, smart trades are a part of it, but I think JR got way too much credit for making smart trades.  In recent history, what move did JR make that was so great other than Jussi for a while?  Ruutu was okay, but I didn't like moving Ladd at the time and would love to have him back.  I thought JR made a career out of nibbling around the edges and caught lightning in a bottle in 2006. 

 

Maybe RF could have made some more free agency moves, but I think he wanted to see just what he was working with.

Very well said, agree 110 percent.

 

Ladd - I regret that move every time he's mentioned on NHL Network.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

if the Canes' "powers at be" would commit to a rebuild through a combination of draft picks and trades it may keep the STH base content to be cellar-dwellers this year.  Say and do nothing will just continue to make the natives restless.

 

Looks as if opening night may be a sell-out and this is a very good thing after an off-season of doing nothing.  It is good to have hockey back again

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, the team changed the coach and GM.  And with between the contracts the have, and the internal cap, they did what they could at the moment.  I'll keep renewing my seasontickets as long as they are trying to improve.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...