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As much as it hurts to say this, the best thing for this team to do right now is lose. Tank the season. The only hope is to get the #1 or 2 pick in the draft this year. Get a franchise player that can alter the fortunes of the franchise. Like the penguins with Crosby. They were in the same boat as the canes before they got him.

The reality is that the canes just don't have the players. They have not drafted well for a number of years to build up their depth. They have hit on 1st rounders and not much else. Teams like Detroit have depth because they have 4th and 5th round picks that can play and step in when needed.

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As much as it hurts to say this, the best thing for this team to do right now is lose. Tank the season. The only hope is to get the #1 or 2 pick in the draft this year. Get a franchise player that can alter the fortunes of the franchise. Like the penguins with Crosby. They were in the same boat as the canes before they got him.

The reality is that the canes just don't have the players. They have not drafted well for a number of years to build up their depth. They have hit on 1st rounders and not much else. Teams like Detroit have depth because they have 4th and 5th round picks that can play and step in when needed.

Well, we have more(and hopefully better) scouting, and an Assistant GM who knows Major junior hockey.  This is the year to start.

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     I am tired of all the hate on Semin.  Where are the call outs to Faulk, Lindholm, and the rest of the team?  When you are the teams only scoring threat of course you're going to be shut down on a nightly basis.  That is just a fact.  This teams play has me losing optimism fast.  I think we should start Khudobin going forward because Ward sucks.

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This is the simple key to happiness this season.

 

I want some entertainment.  Some guts from our guys.  Last night was the first night this season I saw very little of it.

And now you've seen it twice in as many games. We are in full rebuild mode, anybody denying it is either delusional or on the front office staff.

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How is the team in full rebuild mode when they still have SKinner, Staals, and Semin, and Ward.  We are not in full rebuild mode until we unload some of those guys.

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I've resigned myself to this season's fate too.  RF, don't blow it for nothing.

 

That said, I see a lot of talk on this board about "player x" "getting hot" or "going on a run."

 

I think that is a dream.

 

We had one delusional period 2 years ago in the lockout shortened season where JR proclaimed the team ready for a deep run into the playoffs over an alignment of the stars that caused a 5 week period of good feelings all because player x, y and z got hot.

 

5 weeks since 2009, if you ask me.  Getting hot and going on runs doesn't seem to be in the cards with these players.  I think trade value is going to be very low.  That concerns me greatly when RF finally needs to make the moves.

 

Just hope I'm wrong.

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     I am tired of all the hate on Semin.  Where are the call outs to Faulk, Lindholm, and the rest of the team?  When you are the teams only scoring threat of course you're going to be shut down on a nightly basis.  That is just a fact.  This teams play has me losing optimism fast.  I think we should start Khudobin going forward because Ward sucks.

I think that the bashing on Semin is fair.  While agree with you about focus being on him,,, his effort has been lacking or at least sporadic  he is not taking shots or they are just go throught he motion shots,   missing defensive assignments etc..  at least that is what I have seen watching the games real time.  ( I don't record them anymore as its too frustrating)  @Faulk- People here have mentioned Faulk not playing well I think a times.  He isn't.  I agree with you.   @ Lindholm.. I don't know I just haven't noticed him much I think I'm personally giving him a bit of a pass since he is so young .  I guess maybe I shouldn't.  

 There is a lot I miss in games but last night was just awful all around. 

I agree with those here not wanting a dumb trade made.  I think we are seeing now what utilizing that strategy has led  too.. and while it sucks we are just going to have to sit back and watch this team lose a lot this year. 

I am holding out hope that Peters instills something that times perfectly with a lot of people getting back with from injuries and this team starts winning.  Who knows maybe we need to hit bottom like this for the team to rehab and start winning again.  Just my 2Cents.

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How is the team in full rebuild mode when they still have SKinner, Staals, and Semin, and Ward.  We are not in full rebuild mode until we unload some of those guys.

So what are you saying, BD? Should we just give away the people you mention? Because that is the only way we get rid of them. Who wants these players right now?? What would we possibly get back for them in terms of making things any better? It is easy to say trade this or that guy, but there are obstacles to a trade with every single guy you mentioned.

 

Just because we haven't gotten rid of these salaries yet doesn't mean we aren't in full rebuild mode. Any manager who has ever inherited a payroll and tried to improve it will tell you: The way you do that is by assessing everyone's performance as objectively as possible before making any rash decisions. That is the phase of rebuild we are now in. I get that you want wins. I do too. But IF we were going to try to trade our way up the standings, it would have happened over the summer. Ronnie and Peters decided to build something from the ground up, and this is the price: really, really, lopsided losses. Get used to them, because you're going see a bunch. 

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I've resigned myself to this season's fate too.  RF, don't blow it for nothing.

 

That said, I see a lot of talk on this board about "player x" "getting hot" or "going on a run."

 

I think that is a dream.

 

We had one delusional period 2 years ago in the lockout shortened season where JR proclaimed the team ready for a deep run into the playoffs over an alignment of the stars that caused a 5 week period of good feelings all because player x, y and z got hot.

 

5 weeks since 2009, if you ask me.  Getting hot and going on runs doesn't seem to be in the cards with these players.  I think trade value is going to be very low.  That concerns me greatly when RF finally needs to make the moves.

 

Just hope I'm wrong.

I hear ya, X-ray, but I'm not as worried about it as you. Look at the excitement generated by the Staal trade talk in Toronto. The bottom line is that fan bases and even GMs tend to downplay players' past liabilities and focus on their future possibilities.

 

Now, that being said, no GM in his right mind trades for any of our high-dollar players right now because they are not healthy and the season is young. What value these guys show between now and the trade deadline will help determine what we get for them, but IMO, the offseason is the time to trade during a rebuild, particularly when all you've got to offer is a bunch of high-dollar under performers. The only guy I see **possibly** moving for value at the deadline is E Staal, and that would have to be a trade to a lead-pipe cinch Finals contender loaded with talent. Marketing him at the deadline to a bubble team (i.e., Toronto) begs the question: What bubble team would give up two of the guys that HELPED MAKE IT a bubble team - and a high draft pick - for one aging guy? Answer: none. I don't think even Toronto is that stupid. 

 

Eric Staal is our Jarome Iginla. Unless we trade him at the deadline to a solid Cup contender looking to get even stronger going into the post season - as Calgary did with Iginla a couple years back - he's here for the duration of this season, and next summer, the fire sale begins.

 

I know everyone was hating on Kirk, but the fact is, whoever is at the helm has to get the kids to buy in, because they are the future of this team. Kirk did, and Peters has. The next step is to sell off the underproducing older talent, which is often (like Iginla was in Calgary) what is holding the team back. JR wouldn't do it, and Ronnie chose not to do it last summer, I'm assuming because he wants to give himself and the new coach a full season to assess what we have, together, and start from scratch, building something. That's what Calgary did, and it is now beginning to show in their performance.

 

We are at ground zero, boys and girls, and the next two years will NOT be pretty.  

Edited by top-shelf-1

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I guess I am the eternal optimist. As much as we have the talent on the ice, you do have to remember this is a new coach with a new style of play and we are going to have growing pains. We are going to see things we've seen so far this season, and we are going to see both goalies being hung out to dry. I quit watching the Flames game last night after the 3rd goal. I can't fault Cam on any of those, just like I can't fault Anton on any of the goals against the Jets. 

 

The loss of Jordan is looking like a bigger loss than we could imagine.  Without him we no longer have a shutdown line to play against the other team's top line.  And our top defensive pairing (Sekera / Faulk) are struggling.  For some reason, Faulk is playing his worse games in his short career.  Our defense looks like they are not talking. Perfect examples was the 2 on 1 break away. Sekera should have moved towards Wideman to take the pass away to leave Cam the shot.  Another is the back door goal scored last night. Gleason and Murphy both left Stajan alone for a simple bang-bang goal.

 

Though we are getting him back soon, the loss of Eric has been big.  With all his perceived faults, team's still have to scheme against him. Their top shutdown line / defensive pairing has to focus on his line when he is on the ice.  Without him, and no offense to speak of, team's know who they have to shutdown.  There is no substitution for him (other than maybe Jordan) on the top line. No offense to Nash or Rask, they are not ready to take that role.

Edited by hopper915

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The team is definitely in a rebuilding phase but not that full on rebuilding where you fire sale the veterans. It is too early for that. I think going into the season the plan was to begin restocking the Chex, give some prospects NHL experience and identify the players who you believe are part of the future in the next 3 -5 years. The early injuries changed that and forced us to bring up the rooks for some on the job training.

 

Why make a trade? When teams aren't playing well sometimes you need to shake things up just to let the others know your paying attention. That doesn't mean you have to trade away a Staal, a Semin or a Skinner. But you might if the deal is right. More likely you will make a smaller move with the goal to help the now with an eye on the future. Once the injured return we as a team will have a better idea who we want to keep and who we want to let go.

 

Some of the veteran players will go, some of the prospects will go. The real question is when and for what.  Until then some of our young hopefuls are gaining valuable experience.  Some of them will be our future but some of them won't.

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Random observation:

 

Last year I was watching the stats pretty closely looking for patterns trying to see if I might find a clue as to why we were underperforming so badly.  Hits, giveaways, takeaways, faceoffs, I couldn't see any patterns. The only thing that seemed consistent (besides being outscored :P) was that the other team almost always had more blocked shots than we did. It came back to me during the Jets game when Forslund (Trip?) showed the Canes staff working with the team at practice on blocking shots. The segment showed players sliding in front of coaches shooting foam pucks to make the blocks, which a couple of players did for real in the Jets game.  On the one hand, I loved the commitment.  On the other hand, the last thing we need is more players getting injured from taking a puck to the wrong place. :o   

 

I'm not saying that the actual number of blocked shots was/ is our problem, but I wonder if that might be a surrogate indication of poor team defensive positioning?

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.  And our top defensive pairing (Sekera / Faulk) are struggling.  For some reason, Faulk is playing his worse games in his short career.  Our defense looks like they are not talking. Perfect examples was the 2 on 1 break away. Sekera should have moved towards Wideman to take the pass away to leave Cam the shot.  Another is the back door goal scored last night. Gleason and Murphy both left Stajan alone for a simple bang-bang goal.

 

We focus a lot on forwards and goalies, but you bring up the blue line issues, and rightly so.  Oh my, we have issues there.

 

Faulk has caught the same disease as all our other players did after the Big Contract.

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We all knew that going into this season the blue line was the weakest part of the team.  Harrison, Bellemore are garbage and the verdict is still out on Murphy.  It's not looking good for him though.  Faulk is overrated and over paid.  Gleason is OK at best.  That leaves Hainsey and Sekera as our only 2 NHL caliber d men.

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It is so hard to breakdown a team that is playing this badly. How can one guy play really well against a tide of ineptness? Skinner, and possibly Semin are the only guys on the team (currently) that have the ability to produce offense against the tide of complete lack of pressure. Skinner actually had just about our only chance. Unfortunately "bad" Skinner gives away chances at the other end. 

 

Call out bad? Oh plenty of that to go around. And yes, Faulk is playing very inconsistently, which is not great to see. But again, the entire team is low tide. When Nash is the guy everyone is happy with....well it's good for Nash.

 

Yes, the bottom of our defense is a bit of a scrap heap also...

 

But mainly, we do not have team offense. Any. At all. We have a lot of guys who skate around. Nice skating around. No offense. No pressure. Watch that game last night. Yes, there were a bunch of defensive miscues. But that just meant we lost 5-0 instead of 2-0. The outcome of that game was never in doubt. We posed no threat. None. Outside of Skinner's break in on the turnover, we had pretty close to zero grade A chances. We cycled a few times, until the cycle fizzled and went the other way. We shot a ton of shots from the far side in on goal. 

 

As much as defense wins championships, you can NEVER win a game where you mount zero offense. Play that game 100 times, Calgary wins 99 times. And this is the most luck dependent major sport. But there is not enough luck in the game to overcome that showing.

 

Anyway, the play of this team at this point shows us one thing for sure. We do not have depth, especially depth of players that can create offense. Yes, there have been some very nasty defensive breakdowns, but when you are generating nothing on offense, then get behind, you press and the defense suffers. The play of the last two nights vs very average teams, exposed something. Say what you will about Eric and Jordan...THIS is what we look like without them.

 

Rask. Could it be that the half notch speed upgrade between preseason and regular season is the problem? Last year Rask did not look ready for even preseason speed. He has closed that gap. He may well get it. It takes time for most guys to find that NHL speed. But he's in the #1 or #2 slots while he struggles to find it. 

 

As to trades...we've run the board before (but why not do it again below). There do not seem to be great trades sitting there at the moment and I that the last thing we need is a trade just for the sake of it. I guess we could make a minor trade to shake things up, but I'm not sure minor trades do that anyway. And, this is not really a veteran team that has no motivation. This is a team full of hopefuls who have mostly never produced much at the NHL level, and one Russian who doesn't seem to care. (Sorry, but watch Semin along the boards some time, he makes Skinner look like a tenacious board battle winner. He pops out more turnoversthan a tennis ball shooter when he's pressured.)

 

So who do you trade?

 

 

J? Injured. HUGE contract. NTC. 

 

Ward? HUGE contract. NTC: save % .829, gaa 4.32 record 0-2-1 shootout loss.

 

E? Injured. HUGE contract. NTC. Still has value, but will have more value if he comes back and plays well.

 

Semin. Big contract. Never looked worse. Who would take him? Now? Ha!!!

 

Skinner. This is the guy that could probably be traded right now. BUT he is close to his recent concussion and would probably bring more if he got a couple of concussion free months with some points. Also, if it were not for the concussions he should absolutely be part of the new core. Imagine losing his points. The concussions do create the line of reasoning, but I really doubt we move him now unless someone offers the moon.

 

Tlusty. Fine, but won't bring much and is a rare thing: A true finisher who plays the rest of the game well. He makes it look easy, but what he does is exactly what almost all of our "prospects" don't. Put the puck across the goal line and into the net. He is on a one year deal and will want to be paid next year, but frankly, if his price is decent, I'd have him as part of the rebuild group. 

 

Faulk. If Francis thinks he's overrated and that his recent, and sometimes bad play of last year is what to expect moving forward...but I wouldn't do it. In an ideal world as his game matures, he would be an awesome second pair guy. 

 

Murphy? Who covets him? Undersized and yet to put points up. Lots of potential, but probably does not bring much.

 

Khudobin? Fine if you want to lock down Conner McDavid and spend at least the next 2 years searching for a goalie.

 

Who? 

 

If a great trade pops up, fine, but right now, most GM's are far from feeling the need to overpay for our huge salaries. They are surely looking to take us. 

 

 

But Francis and Peters have two things on their side, especially Francis. Time and a Generational Draft upcoming. He JUST took over. Most GM's get three coaches before getting the boot. JR was increasingly in a "win now" situation. Francis is not. And if this team is going to be THIS bad, we will be in the serious running for McDavid or Eichel. In fact if the draft were held today we would be putting a uniform on Jack Eichel. Or, even if we got ousted to #3 in the lottery we'd get Noah Hanifin, a dman that would be the #1 pick were it not for the dynamic duo of McDavid/Eichel. Imagine a top pairing of Fleury and Hanifin in a few years....

 

So we wait. We wait to at least get Eric back. See if he can jump start Semin and re slot the other centers. See if Ward, who has not really given up a lot of soft goals, but still sports that .829 Save %, can put some games together and maybe get traded at some point? 

 

We wait. If we suffer badly, we get a superstar pick and hopefully can convert some of our team into more first round picks in a seriously deep draft.  If we find some kind of game, who knows? Right now. The former seems more likely, but maybe the Captain can save us...

Edited by remkin

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We all knew that going into this season the blue line was the weakest part of the team.  Harrison, Bellemore are garbage and the verdict is still out on Murphy.  It's not looking good for him though.  Faulk is overrated and over paid.  Gleason is OK at best.  That leaves Hainsey and Sekera as our only 2 NHL caliber d men.

 

I'm still guardedly optimistic about Liles.  Hopefully last night is an indication of the rest of the season:  21:46m of ice time and no goals by Calgary.

 

. . .

So who do you trade?

 

. . .

 

Rem, you overlooked probably our number 1 trade candidate if we were to make a trade right now.  Sekera is healthy, coming off a career year, 28yo, has a reasonable contracat ($2.75m), and doesn't have a no-trade clause.  I've been reading that other teams have been inquiring about him.  I'm not saying he we should trade him (I feel the opposite), just that he seems like the most tradeable for fair value at this point if we did make a trade.

 

Again, things might change as we approach the trade deadline if we go into full blown rebuild mode and feel like we won't be able to re-sign him this upcoming summer, I certainly hope it doesn't come to that!

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Add Sekera to the list along w/ Khudobin of the "watch how bad we get without him". 

 

I want Sekera to be part of this team moving forward. To me he is core.

 

Given the concussions, I'd probably move Skinner before Sekera (again assuming a big big return).

 

That said, you do have to listen to offers....but it would have to be a very very good deal for us.

Edited by remkin

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Add Sekera to the list along w/ Khudobin of the "watch how bad we get without him". 

 

I want Sekera to be part of this team moving forward. To me he is core.

 

Given the concussions, I'd probably move Skinner before Sekera (again assuming a big big return).

 

That said, you do have to listen to offers....but it would have to be a very very good deal for us.

 

I agree.  Just pointing out that Sekera (I should have added Khudobin and Faulk) are about only players who would likely give us a fair return at this point.  And no, I wouldn't move any of them either.  

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Well we all know there are not gonna be any trades til maybe december so forget that.

 

All the Connor Mcdavid lovers have to realize that the Canes do not have good enough luck to get the first pick even if we finish last.  So forget him. number 2 pick is realistic.

 

Maybe Muller wasn't such a bad coach after all, he could at least keep the boys hovering around .500 all year. 

 

sigh, I was excited all august and september for this garbage. 

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I'm still reserving judgment until Staal and Gerbe come back.

Semin Staal Tlusty

Lindholm Nash Skinner

Gerbe Rask Boychuk/Terry

That's a lineup that has the ability to generate offense which we simply don't have right now.

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danimal, re your "I was excited all august and september for this garbage", that seems to be the recurrent theme around here since the cup year, except for the 08-09 season. I'm surely in that same boat, and it's getting very old! The drudgery we've gone through each off season, following the "close but no cigar" ending to the regular season, some hype leading up to the trade deadline, then some enthusiasm for the draft, preseason practice and games, and the inevitable slow starts all are blurring into the inevitable realization of reality.

 

Yet, in my case, I keep coming back for more, and reup for another 41 game stent. Sigh

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Well we all know there are not gonna be any trades til maybe december so forget that.

 

All the Connor Mcdavid lovers have to realize that the Canes do not have good enough luck to get the first pick even if we finish last.  So forget him. number 2 pick is realistic.

 

Maybe Muller wasn't such a bad coach after all, he could at least keep the boys hovering around .500 all year. 

 

sigh, I was excited all august and september for this garbage. 

 

Well #2 is Jack Eichel who some think is as good or better than McDavid. So a last place finish assures us a generational talent. But whooboy the pain of being THAT bad.... :bangHead:

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