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You all have it right. 

 

We are a few gaffes from a couple more wins. But to make the playoffs we need to dig out of the hole, and that means an above average team and some luck. IF it happens I'll wake Coastal  :grin: .

 

Don't get me wrong. Even since Nov. 1 we have had neither luck or a significantly above average team. But we have played some very good and elite teams well...still we are now, slightly below average since Nov. 1, and that's not good enough.

 

The question is can we improve from here, or it this it? 

 

Clearly most people think this is it. There is a lot of historical evidence to support that conclusion. It is a pretty good bet. 

 

To get better, we need: Semin to be Semin. And inch close enough for J. to contribute. At the same time we need key guys to stay mostly healthy.  And that's just to have a shot.

 

I still think it could happen. That doesn't mean I think it will happen.

 

But the thing is, I also don't know what kind of trades are out there. Just seems like there will be more appetite for trades after the holiday trade freeze comes off. The other thing is this. On Staal and Ward. IF we are going to trade them, they must wave the NTC. That is probably more likely if they thing they'll go to a playoff team, which may be easier to determine a bit later.

 

Still plenty of time after that to race for the bottom. 

 

We need to lock down Sekera. If we cannot....I just think he should be in the core, but that's me. Losing him is inevitably a step back. 

Edited by remkin

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Im contented to watch this team  improve, with the young guys, and near  trade  deadline, move some  big contracts.. I dont have that nervous feeling tonight, which for the heart is a good thing.. I love the CANES, but im with Coastal, not a playoff team.. And thats ok... next year.. ;)

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We all need to embrace the tank.  This team is about to go into full rebuild mode.  The funny thing is that this is the first time is a while that I have been happy with the effort of the team on a nightly basis.  But we just have the wrong players for this system.  Staal, Dwyer, Gerbe, Tlusty, Semin, Boychuck., Malone, and the entire blue line all need to be moved.

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While I disagree about Dwyer & Gerbe, I 100% agree with the spirit of what you are trying to say.

 

At this point, there's no need for further evaluations by Francis.  We've kinda seen seasons like this from these players for the last 3yrs.  Now, for the front office it's probably just a matter of should I trade these guys now or wait until the deadline to see if I can get a little more for them.

 

Who stays:

 

Skinner

Lindholm

Nash

Rask

Gerbe

Dwyer

Faulk

 

Anybody else I'd be ok with trading.

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Did he say shuffle the deck or shuffle the deck chairs?

 

 

 

 

 

Can you tell I'm feeling that glimmer slip?

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I would keep Nasty.  He has shown that he has the ability to establish a forecheck.  Something many Canes players are unable to do.  

I don't see Nestrasil as really being in question unless another team demands him as an add-on in a much bigger deal.  He's young, cheap, decent upside, and should be easy to retain do due his upcoming RFA status. But I can't see him bringing much in return on his own at this point of his career.  I suspect he's the type of player this organization might be looking to add more of (I'm starting to hear the words "cost saving" a lot more lately), not move.

Edited by LakeLivin

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My biggest takeaway from this recent back to back:

 

Detroit wins: Pavel Datsyuk carries play

New Jersey wins: Jagr carries play

 

It's crazy to think that other teams are winning because their best players are their best players. Need a goal? BOOM Datsyuk gets one. Likewise last night with Jagr.

 

It's frustrating that when we need it the most, we can't count on our big $$ guys to deliver on a consistant basis.

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canesfan06,

 

I think you are right. I wrote as much on the GDT.

 

We are now #29 in goals/game in the NHL. We have enough firepower on paper to be in the top 10 EASY.

 

Clearly, if E and J and Semin were at their good (I don't want to say best, just solidly good) it would also help others and w/ the coaches squeezing out some ok defense (yes some gaffes recently) and Ward playing well, things would be different. I don't think that, I know that. On paper, is by definition in the past, but particularly Eric Staal and Alex Semin are not now what they once were. I think due to injuries, but that doesn't change the outcome. If we could get them at near peak at the same time.....BUT it simply will not happen. We have waited for that long enough.

 

It is becoming clearer and clearer that Semin's wrist is not healed. I bet he had an occult scaphoid fracture. May never be right again. It is also clear that while E. is game and wants to do the right thing, he is not his usual dynamic self. He has lost a big step. And J? Well who knows, unfortunately, through no fault of his own we've seen zero this year. But the two years prior were less than hoped on the playmaking scoring front.

 

But Canesfan is exactly right. In this league where goals are tough to find, you need those high end, highly paid point producers on their game. And for whatever reason, this basic core cannot get that now for at least 2 years.

 

We have the #27 shooting percentage. We generage the engine of scoring. We create pressure. But we don't make that final play or bury chances at the level a winning team does. At this level, that's a player thing. Datsuk makes the play. Staal does not. Jagr makes the play. Semin does not.

 

That NJ game just epitimized it for me. Tons of shots, make the back up look like a star. How many times have we said that? We specialize in bumping back up goalie's save percentage.

 

We need playmakers. Two of the best potentially historical best, are sitting in the draft this year.

 

I am saddened to see myself typing this with 4 months of season left.

 

Maybe not today, but in the coming weeks, it is time for Francis to show us what he has in mind.

 

And a quick trip to the bottom would help immeasurably more than a tortured trip to 10th from the bottom. And a it would be a very quick trip to the bottom from here.

Edited by remkin

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Peters said may be time to shuffle the deck. Mentioned Staal maybe moving to wing and Lindholm to center

 

 

AS Obxer quoted Chip....

 

My take: time for Lindholm to get ready to play first line center....soon he will be it.

Edited by remkin

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It is OK, Remkin.  The first step is acceptance.   Glad to see you've finally passed denial.  Only took 2 years.  :)

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I think moving Staal to wing has more to do with the Semin dilemma than Staal or Lindholm.

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Peters said may be time to shuffle the deck. Mentioned Staal maybe moving to wing and Lindholm to center

 

 

AS Obxer quoted Chip....

 

My take: time for Lindholm to get ready to play first line center....soon he will be it.

 

I think Lindholm has looked strong at RW.  He has only played RW, with a few really short exceptions, as a professional. He played RW in Sweden as well.  RW is our biggest organizational weakness.  I would leave him at RW.  I don't mind the Staal move to LW.  Just put Rask there and go with it until J is ready to take over.

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I typically don't get on a soap box and rant, but I feel the need!

Afterwards, I'll go quietly into the penalty box for unsportsmanlike conduct!

 

While getting a high draft pick is the "IT" thing, it does not always translate to success on the ice.

(SEE EDMONTON)
Since 2010, Edmonton has had the #1 pick three times.
Taylor Hall; 2010
Ryan Nugent-Hopkins; 2011
Nail Yakupov; 2012
This has translated to one bad season after another.

The Hurricanes draft history hasn't really panned out as well, with only a handful of players we've drafted in the 1st round playing with the Canes, much less in the NHL.

Detroit builds by finding players that fit their system. They typically don't have 1st round draft picks. They scout for those hidden gems later in the rounds.

Here are a few examples:
Pavel Datsyuk, Drafted in 1998 in the 6th round
Henrik Zetterberg, Drafted in 1999 in the 7th round
Johan Franzen, Drafted in 2004 in the 3rd round
Justin Abdelkader, Drafted in 2005 in the 2nd round
Darren Helm, Drafted in 2005 in the 5th round
Tomas Tatar, Drafted in 2009 in the 2nd round
Petr Mrazek, Drafted in 2010 in the 5th round (The goalie who beat us Sunday)

They draft for their AHL team, develop and do not rush players to the NHL until they feel they are NHL ready.

Perhaps the Canes should take heed and look at Charlotte. How are we developing our future players? Have we been sucessful in doing so? Is Jeff Daniels imploring the same game plan and system down there as Coach Peters is here? If not, are changes needed there?

A quick fix is not always the best answer. We've been patching this team since 2005-2006 and with little to no result. We've brought in aging veterans and cast-aways with little to no success.

Outside of Faulk, Sekera and recently Jordan, our blue line is atrocious. Hainsey is pretty solid and Bellemore seems to be finding his game up until he got injured. Jordan has been a surprise. He's been pretty steady and we've really not seen many, if any, mistakes. Harrison, Gleason and Liles are old and slow. Murphy, who is in Charlotte, in my opinion was a wasted draft pick. He does not have NHL size to play in the NHL as a defenseman. Really if he wants to make it in the NHL, he should consider making a change to forward or forever be a AHL lifer.

The one knock in previous seasons has not been a liability this season. Goaltending. Cam has found himself and looks calm and since Nov 1st, is considered a TOP 10 goaltender in the league. Khudobin, who has yet to get a win, has also been solid after a rocky start.  Both are under 3.00GAA and are getting little to no support from our offense and until the offense is found, both will need to be perfect for the Canes to have any hope of winning anytime soon.

Offensively, we stink! Semin, E.Staal, Skinner and Tlusty are not getting the job done. Tlusty after a good start has gone cold. Eric started off injured, seem to find his game somewhat, then went into the tanker.  Skinner as well. The biggest disappointment has been Semin. Its pretty bad that Nestrasil has almost as many points through 8 games with the Canes as Semin through 21.

Perhaps the loss of J.Staal has affected this team more than we know. Without a threatening 2nd line, opponents are concentrating on our top players and pretty much saying, "We'll shut your top guys down; see if you can score with your complimentary players and if you do score, we don't care, we'll keep these guys off the score sheet so they can't beat us"

Maybe Peters needs to bring the hammer back.  If E.Staal, Skinner and Tlusty aren't getting it done, maybe they need their ice time affected. Put Terry/Boychuk/Rask up as our TOP line, then make Nash/Gerbe/Nestrasil as our #2 and E.Staal/Skinner/Tlusty as our #3. If that doesn't work, switch but keep the Staal line as #3. Can't hurt; not the way things are going now.
 

OK, I've said my peace. I am skating to the penalty box.

:pb:

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It is OK, Remkin.  The first step is acceptance.   Glad to see you've finally passed denial.  Only took 2 years.   :)

 

You know, I'll come over to the dark side.

 

I still think it could have played out differently. But it's one of those things. Which ever way it broke, that position will be correct. It certainly appears that it broke the wrong way. To be fair really all I've really said is that the potential is there. I think that one more loss combined with the realization that Semin is probably not going to be very effective moving forward either....

 

Gotta be willing to accept it.

 

But for the record Semin's clipped wing is a major issue, that was hard to predict. Add in J.s major injury....

 

Still hold that there is a potentially better team in there than a lot of people think.

 

But unless Semin and Staal suddenly find their games, it is increasingly clear that this group has run out of time to find it.

 

Frankly, I still think major deals could be a ways off, but the outcome seems increasingly certain.

Edited by remkin

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hopper,

 

I'm all for being Detroit. I do think that the plan is to be more like them. But that will take time and process. I would also add that there is nothing about getting Conner McDavid that keeps us from finding a gem in later rounds.

 

That said, the other model is the more standard model. Yes, the Oilers have monumentally failed despite top picks. But take Crosby and Malkin off Pittsburgh, Take Toews and Kane off Chicago, not to mention other high picks.

 

And this year's draft is even more special.

 

As a rule, if you go back and look at the #1 and #2 picks of each draft going back 15-16 years, total misses are pretty rare.

 

The Oil aside, in general, a good antidote for weak scouting is picking #1. The other rounds are still there for the hidden gems.

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Yea I threw a lot out there. I've had a lot on my mind of late. One thought I had was with the wealth of youth Edmonton has right now, perhaps we could go shopping. Hall, Nugent-Hopkins and Eberle are under contract at $6mil/season. Yakupov, who is not living up to being a #1 draft pick, will be a RFA next season, so Edmonton will have to decide what they are going to have to do. They do have about $5mil in cap space right now. Could see Edmonton do what Boston did a couple season's ago when they traded Seguin to Dallas. None of the youth in Edmonton has a NTC, so.........

 

The Blackhawks are another team that will have to move players, as they are up against the cap. Rumors are they are looking at moving Sharp. They have $20mil wrapped up in Toews and Kane, so they may have to move one of those pieces as well, otherwise they will have problems trying to bring in/re-sign players in the coming years.

 

The Penguins are another team that will have problems too. They are the most cap strapped team in the league.

We do need to do a better job at scouting and developing. While we have had good success from recent draft picks, we have had quite a few duds as well.

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I think we have to trust that there is a plan. Francis has a goal in mind to rebuild this team. I don't know how it will shake out or how long it will take but I sure hope there is a plan.

 

With all the finger pointing at former GMs, coaches, past and current players and even fan support it is easy to get lost in the fact that this team is already rebuilding.  I'm trying to be patient but I said it before and I'll say it again, I don't like this group. We need changes,  not a fire sale but calculated changes.

 

Players know this is coming, most fans can feel it coming. Until something happens expect uneven play and a nearly empty house.

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I agree there is a plan. I think there was an honest sense of "well on paper the talent is there" combined with "no one really wants to offer anything for the guys I want to move" combined with "Eric really wants to stay, so let's give it one more chance" combined with "lets see what our other pieces look like".  That was plan A.

 

I have no question that there has always been a plan B. Shake it up. Move some key guys.

 

The question is when do you make the decision to go to plan B? And when do you execute? For me, the decision just got made.

 

I still contend that a terrible Semin and J on crutches pushed the timing up some, and ideally Francis would like to get J back on the ice before the shake up.

 

But this has always been plan B.

 

Clearly I've been late to that party,. but I maintain that the first part of November and a hope that Semin might improve, this early in the season, was reasonable. I don't know if Francis is just now thinking that, thought it before or is still holding out. But for me, this homestand, ending in that game yesterday, just flipped the switch. It may not happen now, but the moves seem almost innevitable.

 

If I'm Francis, I'm warming the phone up. No rush. But to me at least, this was the moment the final shoe dropped.

Edited by remkin

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I typically don't get on a soap box and rant, but I feel the need!

Afterwards, I'll go quietly into the penalty box for unsportsmanlike conduct!

 

While getting a high draft pick is the "IT" thing, it does not always translate to success on the ice.

(SEE EDMONTON)

Since 2010, Edmonton has had the #1 pick three times.

Taylor Hall; 2010

Ryan Nugent-Hopkins; 2011

Nail Yakupov; 2012

This has translated to one bad season after another.

The Hurricanes draft history hasn't really panned out as well, with only a handful of players we've drafted in the 1st round playing with the Canes, much less in the NHL.

Detroit builds by finding players that fit their system. They typically don't have 1st round draft picks. They scout for those hidden gems later in the rounds.

Here are a few examples:

Pavel Datsyuk, Drafted in 1998 in the 6th round

Henrik Zetterberg, Drafted in 1999 in the 7th round

Johan Franzen, Drafted in 2004 in the 3rd round

Justin Abdelkader, Drafted in 2005 in the 2nd round

Darren Helm, Drafted in 2005 in the 5th round

Tomas Tatar, Drafted in 2009 in the 2nd round

Petr Mrazek, Drafted in 2010 in the 5th round (The goalie who beat us Sunday)

They draft for their AHL team, develop and do not rush players to the NHL until they feel they are NHL ready.

Perhaps the Canes should take heed and look at Charlotte. How are we developing our future players? Have we been sucessful in doing so? Is Jeff Daniels imploring the same game plan and system down there as Coach Peters is here? If not, are changes needed there?

A quick fix is not always the best answer. We've been patching this team since 2005-2006 and with little to no result. We've brought in aging veterans and cast-aways with little to no success.

Outside of Faulk, Sekera and recently Jordan, our blue line is atrocious. Hainsey is pretty solid and Bellemore seems to be finding his game up until he got injured. Jordan has been a surprise. He's been pretty steady and we've really not seen many, if any, mistakes. Harrison, Gleason and Liles are old and slow. Murphy, who is in Charlotte, in my opinion was a wasted draft pick. He does not have NHL size to play in the NHL as a defenseman. Really if he wants to make it in the NHL, he should consider making a change to forward or forever be a AHL lifer.

The one knock in previous seasons has not been a liability this season. Goaltending. Cam has found himself and looks calm and since Nov 1st, is considered a TOP 10 goaltender in the league. Khudobin, who has yet to get a win, has also been solid after a rocky start.  Both are under 3.00GAA and are getting little to no support from our offense and until the offense is found, both will need to be perfect for the Canes to have any hope of winning anytime soon.

Offensively, we stink! Semin, E.Staal, Skinner and Tlusty are not getting the job done. Tlusty after a good start has gone cold. Eric started off injured, seem to find his game somewhat, then went into the tanker.  Skinner as well. The biggest disappointment has been Semin. Its pretty bad that Nestrasil has almost as many points through 8 games with the Canes as Semin through 21.

Perhaps the loss of J.Staal has affected this team more than we know. Without a threatening 2nd line, opponents are concentrating on our top players and pretty much saying, "We'll shut your top guys down; see if you can score with your complimentary players and if you do score, we don't care, we'll keep these guys off the score sheet so they can't beat us"

Maybe Peters needs to bring the hammer back.  If E.Staal, Skinner and Tlusty aren't getting it done, maybe they need their ice time affected. Put Terry/Boychuk/Rask up as our TOP line, then make Nash/Gerbe/Nestrasil as our #2 and E.Staal/Skinner/Tlusty as our #3. If that doesn't work, switch but keep the Staal line as #3. Can't hurt; not the way things are going now.

 

OK, I've said my peace. I am skating to the penalty box.

:pb:

 

Carolina has a pretty decent draft history as far as 1st rounders.  Our problem is our draft picks were traded away in the past.

 

2002- Cam Ward.  Still starting.

2003- Eric Staal.  Still starting.

2004- Andrew Ladd- Traded for Ruutu- Traded for Loktionov- Nothing

2005- Jack Johnson- Traded for Gleason (we all know the story)- Next to Nothing

2006- No 1st round pick (who'd we get in exchange? Doug Weight?)- Nothing

2007- Brandon Sutter- Traded for Jordan- Nothing this season

2008- Zach Boychuck- on current roster, not great but not horrible

2009- Philippe Paradis- Traded for Tlusty- leading goal scorer currently

2010- Jeff Skinner.  Still playing.

2011- Ryan Murphy- Developing as we speak.  I think he has upside, but I doubt he's going to live up to it in Carolina.

2012- Traded to Pittburgh for Jordan- Nothing this season

2013- Elias Lindholm.  Developing as we speak.  Tremendous upside.

2014- Haydn Fleury.  Developing.

 

In the past 10 years, we've traded away 6 first rounders and all we have to show for those 6 are Jordan, Tlusty, and Gleason.  That's what is unacceptable.  The only bust in that group as of December 9th, 2014 is Boychuck, which was a mid-round pick.

 

The formula for a lot of current contenders is to draft star players, and mix in with key veterans.  The key to successful drafting is to draft the right players to build around.  A team like Edmonton has only really drafted one or two players worth building around (Hall & Hopkins).  Besides Taylor Hall, I remember a lot of people saying they should've sent there other yutes to the minors for awhile to develop, but they chose otherwise.  You look at a team like the Islanders, and what's changed between now and previous seasons?  This past offseason they signed multiple free agents to go along with the properly drafted players they already had (Tavares, Nelson, Okposo).

 

There has to be a balance of drafting and veterans to make a good team.  Where Carolina can favor from that formula moving forward is as long as we don't trade away all our veterans, we'll have a few to continue to build around (Jordan, Skinner, Faulk) and start the drafting part of the process.

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Yea I threw a lot out there. I've had a lot on my mind of late. One thought I had was with the wealth of youth Edmonton has right now, perhaps we could go shopping. Hall, Nugent-Hopkins and Eberle are under contract at $6mil/season. Yakupov, who is not living up to being a #1 draft pick, will be a RFA next season, so Edmonton will have to decide what they are going to have to do. They do have about $5mil in cap space right now. Could see Edmonton do what Boston did a couple season's ago when they traded Seguin to Dallas. None of the youth in Edmonton has a NTC, so..........

 

I was thinking the same thing.  They need veteran players on that team, and we need better youngsters on ours.  I was thinking something along the lines of Eric/Murphy for Nail/Schultz/1st rounder(which will be a top 5 pick this draft).  They'd make the perfect trade partners.

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