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If we use Peters methodology, Nash deserves top 6 time as he has been the most consistent player on the team over the course of the season. Using the same methodology, Staal needs to be 3rd line center. Now that Eric's shield (Alex) has said "no mas" all eyes should be on the captain. Staal was shielded by JR/Mueller, it's time the hammer is finally focused strictly on him. No more excuses Eric,it's not about the other guys around you to make you tick,it's about you leading those around you.If you want to stay in Carolina then prove your worth and demonstrate why we should keep you. The tide has turned and you no longer are the straw that stirs the drink. The organization no longer will be built around you as the Yutes are hungry and we hopefully will have a nice draft pick this year.IMO I would trade Eric as soon as possible,save some bucks and help build the org with the infusion of Eric's salary. Loosing Eric at this point will not make any difference,can't go any lower than last place.

No question about it. Have to disagree with cclifford on this. Nash is a -5 with a shooting percentage of over 10 and tied with Eric in total points. Nash is the picture of defensive responsibility, wins over half of his faceoffs (52.3), and is a big presence who is not afraid to go to the net. Eric's FO percentage is a gaudy 54, but in every other of those categories, he is way behind Nash - and he has NEVER gone to the front of the net.

 

Hockey means losing teeth, Eric. If you don't think so ask Marc. Sheesh.

Edited by top-shelf-1

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Eric has not been skating or playing well. He looks lost. I think a move to the wing is the last possible thing we can try to see if he can find his game.

Nash started hot, but he has not been playing very well either. He is a solid third liner and that's about it. I haven't really looked much at the recent statistics, but the eye test says that Rask is the one that seems to be developing into a top six, maybe top line, center. I think if I was the coach, and I really don't understand why RF didn't call me for an interview :D, I would put Skinner / Rask / Lindholm together and see what they could do as a unit.

Too small, IMO. We already know what Skins Nash and Lindy did last year, and a big reason was Nash's net-front presence, which drew attention and shook our snipers loose.

Edited by top-shelf-1

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I would also try to trade Eric now.  The earlier in the year we trade him, the more teams are still in it.  I would look for the team with the lowest point total that Eric would agree to the trade...Toronto comes to mind.

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Too small, IMO. We already know what Skins Nash and Lindy did last year, and a big reason was Nash's net-front presence, which drew attention and shook our snipers loose.

 

Too small would be my concern as well, although Rask is filling out nicely and Lindholm is actually pretty physical for his age. 

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the article in this morning's N&O was pretty much spot-on.  don't know what we can get for our high-price veterans

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I like Skinner but IMHO he doesn't fit Peters system. I wouldn't be surprised to see him moved. Unfortunately Semin is unmovable so the best we can probably hope for is for him to get healthy and find his game.

 

I think Skinner looks great and has a bright future in this system.  The only way I move Skins is to Edmonton or Buffalo for a solid prospect and their first round pick.  Can you imagine ending up with the top two picks this year?  Talk about a quick fix!!!

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At this point, as I've been all season thus far...blow it up.  Dump the salary, trade the dead weight.  We might as well go through the complete rebuild now and spare the fan base endless more seasons of "this is the year we make the playoffs" with the same old players who apparently don't care enough about their game to leave it all on the ice each and every night like we used to see a decade ago.

 

I'm also beginning to question Peters's hiring...I was really wishing Ron would've gone with a proven commodity, instead of going back to finding "the next best thing" like we did with Kirk.  At this stage of the game, "the next best thing" isn't going to whip the players into shape and weed out the slackers, imo.

 

It's frustrating sitting across the pond, waking up each morning to check the overnight scores....and finding out we lost by one time and time again...and reading deeper to find out it was due to yet another defensive breakdown or yet another turnover from our million-dollar players.  I'm just so exasperated from it all, I've actually taken a decent break from the boards the last few months just to spare myself the endless reality of the fact that we SUCK right now.

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I disagree.  I think that this is is ahnds down the best team game we have seen in the last 5-6 years.  We are in the game every night.  I think the system and coaching is there.  The player however, are not.  Those who are defending skinner have to realize that he does not make players better around him, cannot play defense, and cannot make plays.  He is just a goal scorer and that is it.  I would gladly trade him for a top 2 young d man.  But like you're thinking, thank god I am not GM.

 

Bottom line:  Skinner is a one-dimensional player.

Edited by bluedevil58

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The brutal truth is the entire franchise has a history of mediocrity.  The Cup runs in 2002 and the win in 2006 were an anonomoly Karmonos does not seem to do what it takes to build the franchise into one that can be a perennial playoff contender.

The fact that no sponsors were found this year for bobble head night is a sign that businesses do not want to invest money helping market a worn-out product

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I don't think we have a coaching problem in Raleigh any longer.  I don't think where we are as of now has anything to do with Peters.  We have a few players on this team that leave it out there night after night, and do it every night.  Gerbe and Ward are the only consistent players that we have this year so far IMO.  Everyone else is like a see-saw, up and down.  A few have yet to even see the up, they just don't show up at all.  It didn't just get this way folks, it has been like this for 5 years now.

 

As far as blowing it up?  Yeah, I would love to see it.  But who the hell wants to take on the salaries of the ones we have that need to be moved?  Those guys are not performing now, and haven't in a while.  What are you going to get in return?  How much of their salary will we have to eat if someone does take them?  I don't see our situation improving until some of these ridiculous contracts expire, or some of the players pull their heads out and start living up to their potential and boost their trade value.  This is not a secret, every team out there knows that we need to move costly contracts to improve our situation and that we have nothing really to bargain with to make a deal happen.

 

Realistically, I think we are stuck with the exception of some minor trades that really want make a rat's _ _ _ difference one way or the other. 

 

Someone please show me something to get optimistic over. 

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First, lots of good, reasonable discussion.

 

I have lots of thoughts on these issues, (duh), but I want to chime in on the pay for play issue.

 

The article offered on that subject listed the teams in the league by points per dollar. The thing is that is generally correlated with winning and losing. I bet if you added in goaltending performance per dollar and some measure of elite defenseman beyond just points, it would line up very closely with winning.

 

It's not just that overpaying creates locker room issues. I think it's far more that every seriously winning team needs elite players. Up front they need elite scorers. They cost money. Big money. But there is only so much money to go around. This is why it is so key for your best players to be your best players. That means if you are getting paid to put up 80 points and carry the team, the team NEEDS you to do that to have success. You need elite scorers in this league. Guys who make offense with their ability over and above the "system".

 

Well we have arguably 4 elite scores. E, Semin, Skinner, and J. Could argue about J, but he's shown the potential in Pittsburgh...then we have Lindholm who I think will be and Tlusty who is a decent finisher, but not a creator of offense.

 

So 4 elite scorers is enough to make the playoffs. IF they are performing as elite creators of offense. But right now, we have ONE of them looking elite, but really none of them producing at that level.

 

Thus my continued insistence that on paper we are easily a playoff team.

 

But the game is not played on paper. And this group has simply been unable to ice our elite goalie and even 3 elite scores at the same time. The results are right there in the standings.

 

Injuries have played a big role in this, but how long do you stay with a thing that just does not seem to be able to come together?

 

For me, that time just passed. For others it has been longer.

 

I still look at a healthy producing Semin, and explosive E, and a solid J. with Skinner dancing concussion free, and Ward playing well and see an easy playoff team. But I'm tired of only seeing that in my head. Injuries, growing tired, whatever, it just has not come together. Time to move on.

 

Combine that with a very deep, juicy draft and two franchise changers at the top.....

 

The decision is clear. The only question now is timing.

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I'm not surprised about that at all either. It's nice that they were able to put up some points, but it was bound to slow down before long. And reading posts on the GDTs about how Jagr or Datsyuk score against us when the team needs it, its very apparent that you need big guns going to compete at this level. Now our big guys have not done that for a long time, and it seems that we may have the wrong stars on this team. But also I can never understand or agree when some on here think we should get rid of our Staals, Semins, etc for "a bag of pucks" either. What does that accomplish??

 

To make the team worse, just for the sake of not having to see them make more money than us for what we perceive to be less effort than we think we would personally put in for that money? As if its a personal attack on us, or that our own financial wellbeing or happiness is dependent on whether they are "earning" those millions in our eyes? Are we jealous, or have our own egos that make us prefer to have a probable worse team, as long as we're not "overpaying" for anyone? Come on, time to get off of our high horses here and let's look at the HOCKEY.

 

Say we trade Staal and Semin tomorrow for nothing. We save around 16 million this year and more in the future. So what?? Are we as fans, or even some of you as season ticket holders, going to be receiving benefit cheques in the mail for the money we'll no longer be giving them? Of course not, so unless your name is Peter Karmanos, it doesn't matter at all. Now if you say there are some free agents this year you really want and that money is better spent on those players than Staal and Semin, then fair enough. That is a good HOCKEY reason to make moves and I'll happily discuss with you. But salary space just for the sake of having salary space is something that doesn't make sense for any fan to cheer for.

 

That stat about Riley Nash awhile ago being first in points per dollar was cool and all, but ultimately meaningless. I want this team to be first in the actual NHL standings, not tops in points per dollar. If it was possible for the Canes to find a loophole and spend $100 million a year then I would be all for it, and so should all other fans because that would give you the best chance to put a top team together. That's what the trophy at the end of the year is for, the best team period.

 

I'm not against trading guys like Staal, but it needs to be for a purpose. There are two gamechangers in this years draft. So if you want to trade our stars for picks, race to the bottom and try to get as much young talent as possible on the team in the couple years, that is definitely viable. Or maybe you want to trade for someone on another team who you think could work out well here. These are all potentially good HOCKEY reasons to look at making trades as well. But the whole point is to make the team better, not just to get rid of them because you don't want to see them get paychecks from this team.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm as happy as everyone else to see guys like Gerbe and Nash playing well, and I hope they can continue to impress. But let's not lose sight of why they are so good to have. They are great supporting players. They can be used to round out a team very well. But they aren't top guys. If you want to get rid of stars that are underachieving (Staal, Semin, Skinner maybe) and lean on those guys and the Boychuks, Rasks, Terrys, then prepare to be really, really, bad. As in like Buffalo bad.

 

I get the argument to develop the young guys and that is definitely important for the future. But eventually you will still need some stars to compete. If you think that even after a few years developing that this team can into the playoffs with Nash, Rask, Gerbe, Nestrasil, etc leading the way and compete for the Cup because they work really hard every night and the system is good then I got some bad news. Look at all the teams that consistently compete, whether its Kane and Toews in Chicago, Crosby Malkin in Pittsburgh, Quick Doughty and Kopitar in LA and it becomes pretty obvious.

 

Like I said at the start, its looking more like we have the wrong stars on this team. But just because we have been burned by some of our top players in recent years not performing up to expectations, doesn't mean we should abandon the idea of having high paid stars on our team in the future. Its always risk/reward. If you never give any players big contracts then you never have to worry about being disappointed if they underachieve again, so its a safe way to go. But you'll never challenge for a top spot that way either.

 

(Just to be clear, this rant wasn't meant as an attack on any one person or post, more just some general thoughts and feelings I've seen on here over the last two months or so that I thought about responding to for a while)

 

I think this article touches on some of the same points you're trying to make:

The new obsession with “value players,” and remembering why talent still trumps

Edited by LakeLivin

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Just to clarify my take...

 

I think that the cost/price value line is a curve. You have to pay disproportionately for goals at the top. And that is fine. You need that. Those goals are the exact ones that separate winning from losing.

 

However, you have to still get at least roughly the points/$ for that part of the curve.

 

If you are paying 3 guys for elite production and you aren't getting even average production from them, you are almost certainly going to lose. You only have slots for so many elite guys. If they don't produce, you aren't getting high end scoring, and generally you aren't winning.

 

True "value" guys are great and you need some of them too. Classic example would a guy on an entry level that is performing well, but even a guy like Nash helps.

 

But you need a minimum amount of elite talent, playing elite. And we are not getting that.

Edited by remkin

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Just to clarify my take...

 

I think that the cost/price value line is a curve. You have to pay disproportionately for goals at the top. And that is fine. You need that. Those goals are the exact ones that separate winning from losing.

 

However, you have to still get at least roughly the points/$ for that part of the curve.

 

If you are paying 3 guys for elite production and you aren't getting even average production from them, you are almost certainly going to lose. You only have slots for so many elite guys. If they don't produce, you aren't getting high end scoring, and generally you aren't winning.

 

True "value" guys are great and you need some of them too. Classic example would a guy on an entry level that is performing well, but even a guy like Nash helps.

 

But you need a minimum amount of elite talent, playing elite. And we are not getting that.

 

Agree completely.  And it's a big reason I don't think this team can do much now other than rearrange the deck chairs. 

 

The veteran core group - Staals (mostly Eric), Cam, and Semin (well, I'll throw him in there) are value players but their contracts and NTC's make it difficult to move them.

 

The youth - Faulk, Lindholm, Skinner - are value players we don't want to move in the first place.

 

Then there's all the other guys, all who have value, but aren't worth much (excluding Sekera)..  All easy to move but you don't get much back.  JR made most of his moves here.

 

I don't see a way out of this in the short-term.  It's a dim view, but it explains most of my frustration.

Edited by coastal_caniac

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I think Skinner looks great and has a bright future in this system.  The only way I move Skins is to Edmonton or Buffalo for a solid prospect and their first round pick.  Can you imagine ending up with the top two picks this year?  Talk about a quick fix!!!

Yeah, only it isn't a quick fix. It is a long way for ANYBODY - McDavid, Eichele, I don't care who - from junior or college hockey to the NHL, and the AHL is the weigh station. The only reason our euro players have made the jump is that both were playing with older guys in their countries' most elite professional leagues.

 

McDavid, Eichele and others will get the same "welcome" to this league that Skinner did - and they will either learn to play at NHL speed or they won't. Are their odds of success off the charts? Absolutely. But trading any of our young gunslingers that we've been developing the last several years (Skins, Lindy, Rask, Nash) to get undeveloped young gunslingers is a mistake, IMO. We've got those four (and potentially two more, Jordan, Gerbe) as birds in the hand. If we get lucky in the lotto and get a top pick, great - but trading away the heart of our youth, and I think it's pretty easy to see Skinner is that guy - on the chance that a youngster who has never played at NHL speed will be our savior is a gamble I wouldn't take.

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I disagree.  I think that this is is ahnds down the best team game we have seen in the last 5-6 years.  We are in the game every night.  I think the system and coaching is there.  The player however, are not.  Those who are defending skinner have to realize that he does not make players better around him, cannot play defense, and cannot make plays.  He is just a goal scorer and that is it.  I would gladly trade him for a top 2 young d man.  But like you're thinking, thank god I am not GM.

 

Bottom line:  Skinner is a one-dimensional player.

Your post is not supported by the facts. Skinner has played great on the D side of the puck for the past month, during which time he has gone from -7 to -3 while the other "elites" minus factors have soared. Eric Staal is everything you are accusing Skinner of being. Except a scorer.

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Yeah, only it isn't a quick fix. It is a long way for ANYBODY - McDavid, Eichele, I don't care who - from junior or college hockey to the NHL, and the AHL is the weigh station. The only reason our euro players have made the jump is that both were playing with older guys in their countries' most elite professional leagues.

 

McDavid, Eichele and others will get the same "welcome" to this league that Skinner did - and they will either learn to play at NHL speed or they won't. Are their odds of success off the charts? Absolutely. But trading any of our young gunslingers that we've been developing the last several years (Skins, Lindy, Rask, Nash) to get undeveloped young gunslingers is a mistake, IMO. We've got those four (and potentially two more, Jordan, Gerbe) as birds in the hand. If we get lucky in the lotto and get a top pick, great - but trading away the heart of our youth, and I think it's pretty easy to see Skinner is that guy - on the chance that a youngster who has never played at NHL speed will be our savior is a gamble I wouldn't take.

 

I would have to disagree with that...Here are the first year stats of a few top prospects:

 

Ovechkin 52G 54A 106P

Malkin 33G 52A 85P

Crosby 39G 63A 102P

Kane 21G 51A 72P

MacKinnon 24G 39A 63P

 

The list can go on and on... Sure, there are some misses or guys that take awhile to develop, but if McDavid and Eichel are as good as advertised, there is no reason to think they won't make a major impact right away!

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I think Skinner looks great and has a bright future in this system.  The only way I move Skins is to Edmonton or Buffalo for a solid prospect and their first round pick.  Can you imagine ending up with the top two picks this year?  Talk about a quick fix!!!

Buffalo isn't about to give up a first round pick. They have three first round picks in the top 30 and they are in the cat bird seat. We are in a precarious position as there is no way that we receive any where near contract value for Staal if he is moved. The rumors of Toronto wanting Eric for Kadri and Gardiner would be true panacea at this point with the exception of Kadri being an RFA and his contract is up at the end of the year. Moving Cam at this point is dangerous in my opinion as we have not seen enough of Khudini this year as others have pointed out. He did the job last year but let's not forget he is without a win this year. The losses may not be his fault,but he is 0-6-2 .903 Semin won't be going anywhere as there will be no suitors.We can only hope that the wrist can heal and he returns to Alex of old next year. We will have to see how Jordan returns and how he looks at the end of the year. So moving our top contracts is not possible with the dilemma we are in as much as we would like to see them moved. I think if we can move Eric before playoff time (for other teams) the change of the face of our team will come from B level and C level players. I include Dwyer/Malone/Tlusty/Boychuk/Terry/Gerbe as players that could be packaged for a higher level player to a team looking to shed salary. Yes I love Gerbe, but he should be included if the return is an improvement. So,blowing up this team as much as some  may want it,isn't going to happen. The next two years are going to be rocky,but let's hope we make well thought out trades one at a time and hope that we see a nice draft pick this year. I didn't realize that the draft format will change again in 2016 as it is really becoming a lottery.  http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=728795

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Wow. Really? Skinner is 8 years younger than Staal, scored 33 goals last year, has chemistry with Lindy, Nash, Rask, Gerbe, Jordan - pretty much everyone he plays with - and he "doesn't fit Peters' system"? A system which emphasizes quickness, an unrelenting forecheck and snipers (Skinner is one) who pick corners while big guys screen the keeper?

 

Can you clear any of that up for me?

I know he is young and fast but I guess I long for speed AND size AND scoring. Also tougher on the puck. I definitely wasn't saying Staal is better than Skins. Just that I hate to see him go. Would rather see him as a number 2 center. We haven't seen a healthy Staal in awhile. I know I am slow to give up on players I like. hmmmmmm I'm not GM material lol

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Buffalo isn't about to give up a first round pick. They have three first round picks in the top 30 and they are in the cat bird seat. We are in a precarious position as there is no way that we receive any where near contract value for Staal if he is moved. The rumors of Toronto wanting Eric for Kadri and Gardiner would be true panacea at this point with the exception of Kadri being an RFA and his contract is up at the end of the year. Moving Cam at this point is dangerous in my opinion as we have not seen enough of Khudini this year as others have pointed out. He did the job last year but let's not forget he is without a win this year. The losses may not be his fault,but he is 0-6-2 .903 Semin won't be going anywhere as there will be no suitors.We can only hope that the wrist can heal and he returns to Alex of old next year. We will have to see how Jordan returns and how he looks at the end of the year. So moving our top contracts is not possible with the dilemma we are in as much as we would like to see them moved. I think if we can move Eric before playoff time (for other teams) the change of the face of our team will come from B level and C level players. I include Dwyer/Malone/Tlusty/Boychuk/Terry/Gerbe as players that could be packaged for a higher level player to a team looking to shed salary. Yes I love Gerbe, but he should be included if the return is an improvement. So,blowing up this team as much as some  may want it,isn't going to happen. The next two years are going to be rocky,but let's hope we make well thought out trades one at a time and hope that we see a nice draft pick this year. I didn't realize that the draft format will change again in 2016 as it is really becoming a lottery.  http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=728795

Yup, even if you're dead last in points this year, you only have a 20 pct chance of getting the first pick overall.

 

I really like Gerbs too, but there may be no alternative but to throw him in with Staal to get a sufficient return.

Edited by top-shelf-1

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Your post is not supported by the facts. Skinner has played great on the D side of the puck for the past month, during which time he has gone from -7 to -3 while the other "elites" minus factors have soared. Eric Staal is everything you are accusing Skinner of being. Except a scorer.

 

 

I don't judge by play of the last month.  I judge by what I have seen over the past couple of years.  I feel that if we traded him for a top 2 dman we would be in much better shape.

Edited by bluedevil58

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Mr. Ron Francis,

 

We, the devoted fans of this organization realize that major changes need to be made in order for this organization to move forward.  The previous General Manager failed to realize this and continued to place hope in a hopeless situation.  You have already lost the casual fans, so all you have left are the hard core fans that understand what must be done.

 

Yours truly,

Us

Edited by super_dave_1

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