Jump to content
The Official Site of the Carolina Hurricanes
OBXer

2014/15 In-Season Canes News, Updates and Talk

Recommended Posts

Can we order a player from the NHL catalog that has Gerbe's heart, Dwyer's speed, Semin's vision, J. Staal's size, and Murphy's hands?  Maybe we could get a buy one, get one deal...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can we order a player from the NHL catalog that has Gerbe's heart, Dwyer's speed, Semin's vision, J. Staal's size, and Murphy's hands?  Maybe we could get a buy one, get one deal...

 

Conner McDavid?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Shelf, I appreciate it. It was meant as a surprising/interesting analysis.

Still, maybe I worded it poorly or it just came off wrong.

Either way, no big deal. He'll probably net two next game (at even-strength) now that I brought this up.

Why stop at two!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think we are running out of things to nitpick-analyze. :)  Time for a poll.  About something.  Then I can nitpick the poll. 

 

Seriously, polls seem to get the old heart pumping around here.

Edited by coastal_caniac

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is an interesting  article about the Canes and decisions that will have to be made moving foward, good little article:

 

http://thehockeywriters.com/two-events-could-determine-hurricanes-future/

It is a good little article, a nice overview of the predicament the Canes are in.

 

Gardner is a promising writer who seems to have finally dropped his unqualified love for Eric Staal and ceased defending JR's boneheaded long-term deal for Sasha. The Caps learned that one-year deals are the best remedy for Sasha's spotty play but JR, taking a gamble with OUR MONEY, ignored all that and in so doing handcuffed the franchise and gave us limited options at best for the foreseeable future.

 

My two takeaways from the piece: (1) We are tied to E and Semin for the next couple of years whether we like it or not, so rather than getting caught up in dreams of McDavid and Eichel we should be focused on developing the young core that will replace E and S, and begin right now to scout the heck out of the 2017 draft pool, and (2) whatever success we have in the meantime will be proportional to the degree to which E and S (and J) perform.

 

Jim Rutherford hitched this franchise to two fading stars, but not before assuring the team he went to got our best young center (Sutter). Much as we loved him for bringing the Cup to Raleigh, so should we disdain the terrible job he did for the Canes ever since.

Edited by top-shelf-1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks caniac fan, the writer actually has a clue, and he includes the recent claim by Friedman that Staal won't waive his NTC.

 

I am trying to wrap my head around what moves can and will be made of significance, if the Staals flat out refuse a trade (I guess the NTC's do matter).

 

It pretty much leaves Sekera, Skinner, Ward and Small Ball.

 

JR was the small ball king, until he wasn't, and went and got J and Semin. Not to belabor it, but JR giving E and then J NTC's was a big deal that has left Francis hamstrung. On J, did he really have to include it? Maybe to make it happen. But this has to be added into the cost of that trade: #8 pick, Sutter, Doumalin, and taking on a NTC. If we had waited for UFA, we'd have had to dangle the NTC probably, but we'd still have Sutter and that #8 pick would be just arriving to NHL play (as he is for Pittsburgh right now).

 

Anyways. First, I would love to know how "in the know" Friedman is. I could not get the video of him saying it to play, and the quote just says he isn't likely to waive. This could be posturing by Staal though. But since JR brought the brother's Staal here and gave them the keys to the kingdom and bilateral NTC's, how can we really go full rebuild?

 

Sekera. Unless Sekera wants out or really wants to take us to the cleaners, we gain little by trading him. He is clearly one of the better #3 dmen in the league. He is the perfect model of what current NHL thinking wants. He would be a bear to replace. The article above suggests the NYR want him, and that the asking price is their first round pick.

 

The NYR currently sit #11 in the league and #7 in the East. Could be a bubble team that fades? Not likely. They are better than they're record. At +29 goal differencial, they are actually the #4 team in the NHL. They are playoff tested. And they would be that much better gaining Sekera and losing nothing from this year's team. The best bet is that the NYR pick will come very late in the draft, nearly a second rounder.

 

It is a deep draft, and if Sekera wants out, and that is the deal that is there, you take it, but you draft in the first round to FIND a Sekera, then wait 5-6 years for him to round into form. Dmen peak at age 29. Sekera? 28. (I am aware that Buffalo drafted Sekera in the 3rd, but we've had less luck witht that, and even still, have to wait for developement).

 

So, Sekera out, makes us much weaker, and gives us, at this point, a low first round pick. Net loss. Sekera is not on the list of overpaid underachievers.

 

Skinner. Ah the Skinner debate. If all guys w/ NTC's use them, and if Semin is unmovable, then Skinner is the only one left. Look, we can trade Skinner if we get some king of fair market return, but he is so young still, and already superstar potential, this is a risky trade for a GM. The kind that can go down in the "worst trades" column. Other teams have scouts. They know that Skinner is a liabliity in his own end, they know he is concussion prone too. I find it nearly impossible to consider a Skinner trade because I just cannot guess what the return would be. It would be ironic though, if he ended up being THE big move. Doubt that would sit well with some of my long time friends on this board. Really? The problem was Skinner?

 

Ward. Yes he has the NTC, but I've heard no rumors that he intends to use it. He said offseason that he thought he was "gone". So clearly he wasn't planning on fighting it then. And if I'm Ward and I have a shot w/ a contender? I'd arrive so early to that team that I forgot to pack. It make so much sense from his vantage to get a change of scenery, that, I doubt he enforces it unless RF tries to trade him somehwere horrible, like Edmonton.

 

Ward's salary is an issue as is his stretch of play a couple of years past through this October, but he only has one year after this, is playing near elite since October, is playoff tested, for a goalie is amazingly balanced in the noggin, and teams wanting to make a run would be nuts not to kick the tires on him. Our problem would be replacing him. As w/ Sekera, this is the guy you want your draft pick to become eventually, say 6 years after you draft him. Otherwise, it's back to the goalie scrap heap to find a back up AND hoping Khudini is a true #1.

 

As w/ Skinner, what is the return on Ward? Here I part w/ some, but I can't see the value of moving him for less than a first rounder. Again, could easily be a bottom half first rounder if he is traded to a contender. What is a near elite, playoff goalie worth to a team that is good outside of goaltending? Are you kidding me? If that's not worth a mid round first round pick...

 

 

So, we know Francis wants to rebuild this thing. But JR stuck it to him good w/ the NTC's to the Brother's Staal, and the big contract to Semin. Even JR's most impressive handiwork, Sekera, might be gone.

 

IMHO the full on rebuild that Francis probably wants, has to involve E. But if E. in fact invokes his NTC? E is the piece. He's the one that might fetch a first rounder plus. He's the face of the losing. He's the Captain. He's the one that's been here through 4 coaches and two GM's. Don't tell me NTC's don't matter. I'm guessing as Toronto keeps knocking on the E. door, Francis' frustration is building. That's the deal he wants to make. And just as E is starting to score and look better on the ice and could be a bluer chip.

 

So, if Sekera reups and so does Tlusty, then Franicis almost has to trade Ward and/or Skinner, or he'll have done esentially nothing.

 

Just passing time here. But to me the signal that E doesn't intend to waive his NTC suggests that we have to move forward one more year with most of the same team, and somehow, even I, who have held this team is better than people think, am not really ready for that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, we're seeing why JR stepped down/retired/quit/was fired.

 

I hope JR finds more ways to damage the Pens.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think most astute fans saw it long before JR stepped down/retired/quit/was fired.

 

The writing has been on the wall for quite some time now.  We are likely going to be stuck with the big contracts until they expire.  The last nail in the coffin of moving away from this "core group" occurred when we signed Jordan Staal.  Semin was holding the hammer and doing the nailing.

 

Fans can gnash their teeth attempting to GM our way out of it, but it is what it is.  Ron Francis' hands are tied, and even though he might want to put his stamp on the lineup, he likely won't be able to steer the ship from the current deck hands for a couple of more years.

 

In the interim, I hope we don't hesitate to get the best value for those players not coming back and do everything possible to accumulate picks.  Continue to build the scouting department (get to work Samsonov and Niewendyk), and think about going in a different direction behind the bench in Charlotte.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The thing is that only Semin has untradable contract. And that is arguably because of injury. Jury still out on that one.

(If Semin was putting up his usual .8 ppg, someone would take the contract, maybe not return much, but he'd be tradeable). 

 

E, Ward, and J could all be traded w/ their contracts if they didn't have the NTC's, even though they have all underperformed their pay. The return could be an issue, but a deal could be made.

 

These seemingly unimportant NTC's are important and might be a compelling reason to trade Skinner now, and not to give them out in the future, especially to 20 somethings.

 

The impact of the NTC was exponentially magnified when both Brother's Staal got one each and brought in to play together. That was the move that put us all in on the Staals, where we still are.

 

Edited by remkin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

PK could have pulled out his compliance buyout checkbook, and bought us out of a couple of those deals a few months ago.  That just isn't going to happen here, and we will be the ones suffering because of it.

 

Thanks JR, for all the dead money on the books.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Did anyone else notice that, with the exception of Faulk, all of the All Star D-men are from the Western Conference? 

 

And if we're being honest, the reason Faulk made the team is because he was judged "the most deserving Cane" rather than one of the top 12 D-men in the league this year.    

 

Basically, the All Star teams are saying that all of the best D-men are in the West this year. Interesting . . .   

Edited by LakeLivin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was very surprised to see that PK Subban did not make the list.  I like Faulk, but Subban plays a different game IMO

 

Did anyone else notice that, with the exception of Faulk, all of the All Star D-men are from the Western Conference? 

 

And if we're being honest, the main reason Faulk made the team is because he was judged "the most deserving Cane" rather than one of the top 12 D-men in the league this year.    

 

Basically, the All Star teams are saying that all of the best D-men are in the West this year. Interesting . . .   

Edited by allboys

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The thing is that only Semin has untradable contract. And that is arguably because of injury. Jury still out on that one.

(If Semin was putting up his usual .8 ppg, someone would take the contract, maybe not return much, but he'd be tradeable). 

 

E, Ward, and J could all be traded w/ their contracts if they didn't have the NTC's, even though they have all underperformed their pay. The return could be an issue, but a deal could be made.

 

These seemingly unimportant NTC's are important and might be a compelling reason to trade Skinner now, and not to give them out in the future, especially to 20 somethings.

 

The impact of the NTC was exponentially magnified when both Brother's Staal got one each and brought in to play together. That was the move that put us all in on the Staals, where we still are.

Not to oversell my earlier point, but the big problem with this org since the Cup win was Jim Rutherford refusing to allow coaches to coach and hold players accountable. We've seen in just four games, now that we have the full complement of players that we expected to have in October, what accountability can do. 

 

Until Peters and RF came in, we tried everything - EXCEPT holding players accountable, because JR blocked for them. Those days are over; we need to let the new sheriffs do their jobs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not to oversell my earlier point, but the big problem with this org since the Cup win was Jim Rutherford refusing to allow coaches to coach and hold players accountable. We've seen in just four games, now that we have the full complement of players that we expected to have in October, what accountability can do. 

 

Until Peters and RF came in, we tried everything - EXCEPT holding players accountable, because JR blocked for them. Those days are over; we need to let the new sheriffs do their jobs.

No...he held the players accountable at the WRONG times due to the coaching.  See: LaRose's exit, Jussi trade due to coaching ineptitude, Ruutu's trade due to coaching ineptitude, etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No...he held the players accountable at the WRONG times due to the coaching.  See: LaRose's exit, Jussi trade due to coaching ineptitude, Ruutu's trade due to coaching ineptitude, etc.

 

Clearly we disagree, and that's okay.

 

JR didn't allow coaches to coach. Before Peters, when's the last time you remember any Cane being scratched for poor performance? JR was more concerned about ensuring the big names were on the ice every night, even when their performance didn't warrant it. That's because he was more interested in keeping butts in the seats from one game to the next than he was in winning hockey games, which of course is the surest way to keep the house full. Then he traded lesser-known names so he could look like he was addressing the team's failures. He never pressured this team to win, not even during the Cup year - that was all Brindy and Lavi.

 

JR gave E a revolving door of wingers at E's insistence - none of whom E could work with, not even Cole - but never once read E the riot act. He kept Crackers way too long, forcing Cam to be used too much and break down physically. He paid what players wanted but didn't make them uphold their end of the deal (performing). His long-term signing of Semin was absolutely boneheaded.

 

If he had simply refused to accept losing instead of trying to keep revenue constant with tricks and gimmicks, the revenue would have taken care of itself. Instead he spent big money on things that have nothing to do with the on-ice product (interesting that bobbleheads and JR went away at the same time, don't you think?) - and the on-ice product got progressively worse.

Edited by top-shelf-1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not to oversell my earlier point, but the big problem with this org since the Cup win was Jim Rutherford refusing to allow coaches to coach and hold players accountable. We've seen in just four games, now that we have the full complement of players that we expected to have in October, what accountability can do. 

 

Until Peters and RF came in, we tried everything - EXCEPT holding players accountable, because JR blocked for them. Those days are over; we need to let the new sheriffs do their jobs.

But the NTC's play into this. Note that Peters has yet to scratch a Staal.

How do you hold a guy accountable who not only has a NTC, but also has a brother on the team w/ his own NTC?

The Coaches-Fired to Staals-traded ratio tells that tale, and never more loudly than right now.

When it comes to the pay, and being moved Eric and Jordan will see, they decide.

 

So you cannot take my pay and you cannot fire me or move me? Oh and you made me Captain too? Hmmm. Who has the Hammer in this relationship? JR made that situation by giving E the monster contract AND the NTC. He then threw some more chips in the pot by making him Captain, then went "all in" when he brought his brother in, with his own monster contract, with his own NTC, and put an A on his jersey to boot.

 

So JR made that bed, and then laid in it. So, yes, the JR coddling is gone. But the fundamental power arrangement is unchanged. If E and J want to stonewall any move involving them, they can, and apparently are. 

 

I do think that the Staals do want to win. I really do. But I'm not buying that they've been suddenly snapped into line by the new GM and the Hammer. And even if they have, once they realize they are untouchable, it can be back to business as usual.

 

Again, I think both Staals want to win, and are giving it a go for that reason. But not because they're being held accountable.

 

The only way to hold E accountable is to trade him. But we can't. He won't allow it.

 

 

 

As a final aside, I do like Peters. I think he is sharp as a tack and has a great temperament for a coach. He has a history of winning even before Detroit, but then also brings their system, which has worked pretty well for the last 20 years. Also, I do think Peters holds guys accountable w/ ice time and line assignments. And while Semin needed to be benched more than anyone in recent memory, it was a strong move to do it. But even w/o JR there, he doesn't have the power to really dictate much to the Staals.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

rem, I completely agree with your reasoning regarding the totally impossible situation that RF finds himself in, with one exception!! If I might interject, "JR made that bed, then slept in it", would be better phrased, JR made that bed, then PEED in it!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Clearly we disagree, and that's okay.

 

JR didn't allow coaches to coach. Before Peters, when's the last time you remember any Cane being scratched for poor performance? JR was more concerned about ensuring the big names were on the ice every night, even when their performance didn't warrant it. That's because he was more interested in keeping butts in the seats from one game to the next than he was in winning hockey games, which of course is the surest way to keep the house full. Then he traded lesser-known names so he could look like he was addressing the team's failures. He never pressured this team to win, not even during the Cup year - that was all Brindy and Lavi.

 

JR gave E a revolving door of wingers at E's insistence - none of whom E could work with, not even Cole - but never once read E the riot act. He kept Crackers way too long, forcing Cam to be used too much and break down physically. He paid what players wanted but didn't make them uphold their end of the deal (performing). His long-term signing of Semin was absolutely boneheaded.

 

If he had simply refused to accept losing instead of trying to keep revenue constant with tricks and gimmicks, the revenue would have taken care of itself. Instead he spent big money on things that have nothing to do with the on-ice product (interesting that bobbleheads and JR went away at the same time, don't you think?) - and the on-ice product got progressively worse.

 

I don't 100% agree with everything, but overall you bring up good points.

 

What I saw in the fan base this season was called "capitulation".  Definition 2 of http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/capitulation

 

It seemed like every bad year JR had some trick or luck to pull a Jedi mind trick on the fans.  Skinner, All-Star Game, Staal brothers, etc.

 

And then it came crashing down last year.  I saw life time fans who were STHers from the start bail.  I couldn't believe it, but they finally capitulated.

Edited by wxray1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 Note that Peters has yet to scratch a Staal.

 

Now, at what point in this season are you suggesting that Peters should have sat a Staal?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do think that the Staals do want to win. I really do. But I'm not buying that they've been suddenly snapped into line by the new GM and the Hammer. And even if they have, once they realize they are untouchable, it can be back to business as usual.

 

Again, I think both Staals want to win, and are giving it a go for that reason. But not because they're being held accountable.

 

The only way to hold E accountable is to trade him. But we can't. He won't allow it.

 

 

I do think the Staals want to win but I do not think it is their number one priority. As much as we would like hockey to be a players number one priority,it is not always the case. Eric has lived in Raleigh since 2005, has a NTC, enjoys Raleigh and now has family roots here. He has become very comfortable and his play often looks like he is very comfortable. As much as Eric may get frustrated by not making the playoffs,it is not his number one priority. He will not give up his NTC and uproot his family to go to just a playoff contender, it would have to be to an elite team with a juicy contract. I do think Eric enjoys playing more under Francis and Peters but his continued expectations are for the GM and owner to open the pocket book and build a team around him until his contract expires.

Edited by slapshot02

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now, at what point in this season are you suggesting that Peters should have sat a Staal?

 

Well J kind of got sat. But E?

 

The thing is that I think E has been trying to do the right things for the most part. From what I can see, he has likely also been nagged w/ injuries. So it would have been a stretch to go that far. He did send him down to lower lines.

 

But there was a pretty good stretch where E was on the wrong side of plus-minus and not putting up points. Didn't look good either. Again, the team was so depleted, and Semin was so much worse by comparison that actually sitting E was not really going to happen.

 

So perhaps the point was more rhetorical. Muller didn't scratch Semin, but the "bad" Semin of last year was light years better than the staggeringly ineffective Semin of this year.

 

I guess I'm just saying that while I have great expectations for Peters, the size of his Hammer, smiling Bob, has still not been completely determined. If he were to scratch E., his hammer would be Thor-like. Scratching a bewilderingly inept Semin after many many tries on the ice, was a solid move, but not Thor-like.

 

But my REAL point is that the NTC clauses shatter the hammer.

Edited by remkin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do think that the Staals do want to win. I really do. But I'm not buying that they've been suddenly snapped into line by the new GM and the Hammer. 

That's good, because it's not what I'm selling. :) Nothing about righting this ship is going to be sudden, that's for sure.

 

What I'm saying is that if they underperform - and by "they" I mean Eric mostly, b/c thus far I'm pretty happy with Jordan, but we're kinda forced by circumstances to think of them as the Eastern Conference version of the Sedins - they will be sat like anyone else. The one tool JR had but refused to use was embarrassing KEY players into either performing or getting the heck out of Dodge. Instead he used it with players who consistently gave 110 percent but lacked the skill to be true game changers - LaRose, Gleason, Jokinen, Ruutu. All relatively good players, but nobody's picking them for the Hall, and if Eric doesn't start doing what he's capable of doing he won't be getting in either.

 

NTC or no, I don't believe any player wants to consistently disappoint his fans and I agree that Eric is no exception to that. But the longer he goes without playing on a par with others making his kind of coin, the more fans he disappoints, and at some point THEY will convince him either to waive his NTC or start playing like we all know he can. And I do think he is showing signs of that, but given his on-again off-again history, I'm going to need to see it for a whole season before I'm sold.

 

But I don't want to get off topic here and make this about Eric, because it's not. It's about changing the organizational culture from one that tolerated losing as long the crowds kept coming to one that simply doesn't accept it. That begins - has to begin - with management. And we finally seem to have that manager in place, one who collaborates with, not dictates to, the coaching staff, and puts winning where it belongs, as the top priority. 

Edited by top-shelf-1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...