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Awac:  In other news...how's Tolchinsky doing?

 

 

I'll start by stating I don't know much about Sergei other than what I have read or seen on brief clips. At 5'8 169 lbs he will need to bulk up considerably to survive the NHL. Some of the articles I have read do state that he can be a defensive liability. A true goal scorer and play maker as his assist numbers identify. So for those who are on the trade Skinner bandwagon,isn't Sergei version 2.0 of Skinner? Sergei may even have more play making skills than Skinner when Jeff was 20 yrs old. IMO I would rather have two Jeff Skinner's than none. Two potential high scoring wings couldn't hurt the team. Again Tolchinsky would have to bulk up to survive,but I do like the potential of seeing Skinner and Tolchinsky in our top 9.

Edited by slapshot02

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And since we're reading posts in an environment where some seem to be implying that we should dump Skinner asap...........my first impression was more negativity than humor. Which I think we could use a lot more of around here. 

Why did Skinner cross the road?

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To avoid being hit

Well done!

I wanted to leave the question as the joke, I was combining the negativity with humor.

If forced to give an answer, "to avoid being hit" was exactly what I was going to say. I took it out because I thought I was being negative again.

It is kind of funny though...

.

Edited by Kyrule

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So, if Skinner gets 10 goals in Feb. than we want to keep him right? Now if Eric doesn't get but 1 goal in Feb. than we want to trade him again right? In all seriousness, they are all tough calls. Talented guys that have proven themselves multiple seasons all struggling now. RF is gonna have a stressful summer trying to decide which "big" pieces to get rid of and which ones to keep. One things for certain, he's gonna have to dump at least 2 fan favorites this summer or the fan base will not take him seriously if he decides to "stick with our main group" again.

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LakeLivin, on 05 Feb 2015 - 12:12, said:snapback.png

And since we're reading posts in an environment where some seem to be implying that we should dump Skinner asap...........my first impression was more negativity than humor. Which I think we could use a lot more of around here.

 

Why did Skinner cross the road?

 

Ok, first off, I like the joke. 

 

But :pb:  for leaving out "some seem to be implying that we should dump Skinner asap regardless of the return" since that totally changes the meaning of my post.  ;)

 

For the record, I'm not against dealing Skinner, I just want a decent return.  He's proven the ability to score in the NHL over a long enough period of time that I don't buy that he's washed up based on his current slump  ("maybe this is the true Jeff Skinner").  I recognize his weaknesses but I don't discount the possibility that someone like Peters (and the rest of the team, as we develop a culture) might "motivate" him to improve in those areas, especially since he's only 22 years old.  And even as just a scorer, I believe a young sniper like Skinner has a lot of value to the right organization. 

 

Now the concussion concern is a different matter completely.  The higher you think the probability is that he's going to take another hit to the noggin that ends his career, then the more urgency you place in dealing him.  As always, it's a risk/ reward calculation.  Personally, I think it's a real enough risk but that it's weighed against a potential high enough reward that I want something of pretty good value back if we deal him.  I recognize that others are going to weight things differently, though.  

Edited by LakeLivin

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If I had to put money on the trades, I would bet that nobody is going anywhere of any significance.  We really like our group and when they are healthy, they can bring it.  :sarcasmalert:  For several years now, we get at each other around this time of the year, peeing in each others corn flakes, bad mouthing a Mother or 2, only to be disappointed in the end and have to make up when nothing has happened.  We may move a little piece or 2, but I don't think that anything.....of any significance will transpire.  I hope I am wrong, but I have seen this movie too many times as a Canes fan.  So far as who to trade?  I hope they trade any and everybody that will make improvements to the team so that I can again get excited about driving 1 1/2 hours to a game that I am going to pay a hell of a lot more to see than I did the last time I made the drive with excitement. 

 

So, I am expecting the usual and hoping for the opposite.  No blood on the boards, the opinionated ones are all that we have left and God Bless You All!! :whiteflag:

Edited by allboys

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Lake, perhaps you've read on the "Who Do You Trade" blog, that I sense being called out for not proposing a trade for Skinner, when I suggested that he is the player I'd look at to effect a significant change in the composition of this team.

 

Now I'm not sure if your reference to "trade Skinner ASAP" was a comment intended to address my thoughts, but to clarify, although I'd advocate to strongly consider trading this player, that I didn't necessarily intend "ASAP". 

 

Now in the voluminous discussions that have involved Jeff Skinner, I just cannot conceive , if we Canes fans have explored his "warts" ad infinitum, how its reasonable to expect that GM's throughout the league don't have a comprehensive view of him also? If I understand the arguments for insisting on a "reasonable" return, and I may not, than I have 2 questions. 1st, there appears to be multiple flaws in his game, discussed at such length that I'll not attempt to repeat. If so, and the pervasive argument seems to be to hold on to this player to correct, and thereby make him more attractive in a trade scenario, my question becomes, How long do we use this approach? Wks, Mos, Yrs? And do we ever attain a point where we get what we perceive as "equal value"?

 

2ndly, you addressed this, the issue of concussive fraility is huge, unpredictable and medically unknown! Will the next incident be catastrophic or will he be able to weather it again? I think it fairly evident that Skinner's basic playing style coupled possibly with bad luck has culminated in the precarious situation. What's worse, I don't know that this style can be trained out of him, and still leave him as an effective player. If for instance, his style is a product of subconscious habits he evolved as a child skating protégé, than it might be impossible to unlearn??

 

Therefore, my question becomes, At what point do you pull the plug, and please don't misunderstand, I love Jeff as much as anyone on here? I'd welcome a comeback from him as he WAS an amazing talent.  

Edited by KJUNKANE

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Just to further expound on the previous posting, Sittler27, on Canes Corner gives a little of his personal insight on how he was affected by his concussion. Worth reading and certainly explains some issues we've witnessed in Jeff.

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Does anyone think an Evander Kane for Jeff Skinner trade (straight up) could be possible and make sense for both teams?

 

I've raised this one and not gotten much response, and posted on the official trade deadline that it is rumored now that Kane might need surgery and the price might be dropping.

 

Tons of rumors swirling around. Interestingly though, none I've heard linked with us.

 

I get that he has off ice and attitude issues the probabaly will scare most off, and possilby for good reason. But he his young, fast and has tons of talent and off the charts potential. Could Peters subdue his wild side?

 

Maybe they take Skinner AND Semin.

Edited by remkin

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Semin for Kane straight up I'd do in a heartbeat.  There's an argument to be made that both players are toxic to their teams (in different ways) and perhaps a change of scenery for both is beneficial to all parties.

I've raised this one and not gotten much response, and posted on the official trade deadline that it is rumored now that Kane might need surgery and the price might be dropping.

 

Tons of rumors swirling around. Interestingly though, none I've heard linked with us.

 

Maybe they take Skinner AND Semin.

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But is Skinner adjusting to the very culture you speak of? Is Skinner just in a slump or is he just too much of a round peg in system built for square pegs? Not screaming for a trade really, but if a trade for a youngish player, who while they might not have the big upside, would still have a solid scoring potential but a bit bigger and more of a north south, two way game, was there. Make it.

To your first questions, there is no way of knowing unless you're on the coaching staff.

 

As far as a trade, nobody seems willing to say who that might be. Evander Kane? Seriously? Talk about jumping from the frying pan into the fire. 

 

Skinner is a young - not merely youngish - player, who 24 hours ago we thought was getting benched. Now BP sounds genuinely thrilled about having him back with Semin and Rask in that very same game.

 

I think there is a lot of talking going on between the coaching staff and players, who are together many hours every day, working on their craft, about how to get where they want to go. I also think most of the talk here is based on the glimpses, caught by fans, of bench interactions during the heat of battle, when players are O2-deprived and coaches are looking for winning combinations. Which sort of interaction would you think is more measured, focused, and reasonable?

 

I don't think anyone here can make any accurate conclusions about who is fitting the system and who isn't - until, that is, they are no longer on the roster. 

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Hey, of course we don't know.  We're only fans; doesn't mean it's not fun to speculate and discuss.  This board is entertainment for the ones who care to discuss/play armchair GM etc.  Cheers!

To your first questions, there is no way of knowing unless you're on the coaching staff.

 

As far as a trade, nobody seems willing to say who that might be. Evander Kane? Seriously? Talk about jumping from the frying pan into the fire. 

 

Skinner is a young - not merely youngish - player, who 24 hours ago we thought was getting benched. Now BP sounds genuinely thrilled about having him back with Semin and Rask in that very same game.

 

I think there is a lot of talking going on between the coaching staff and players, who are together many hours every day, working on their craft, about how to get where they want to go. I also think most of the talk here is based on the glimpses, caught by fans, of bench interactions during the heat of battle, when players are O2-deprived and coaches are looking for winning combinations. Which sort of interaction would you think is more measured, focused, and reasonable?

 

I don't think anyone here can make any accurate conclusions about who is fitting the system and who isn't - until, that is, they are no longer on the roster. 

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Oddly sometimes I seem to hearing wait and assess from you still sometimes, which seems at odds with the idea that something has to change (w/ the players), which confuses me some but in general I assume you favor changing some player or players, though I'm not sure which ones.

 

Rem, I don't believe I've ever said that we should wait and assess.

 

What I have maintained is that Francis just can't trade everyone given the high-priced long term contracts, NMC's and NTC's, poor play or production, and that it would likely take another season to make significant changes to begin to build "his" team.

 

I've said we should trade any UFA that either won't sign or we don't plan on resigning by the deadline.

 

In your poll, I chose Cam Ward because the Staals are connected at the hip, I would like to keep Sekera, Tlusty won't bring much, and I hadn't really made up my mind about Skinner.

 

I am and always will be open to any trade that makes the team better.  It's hard for me to figure out what that would be right now, as I'm sure others are finding that difficult as well.

 

So, I guess we do agree. :lol:

Edited by coastal_caniac

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Lake, perhaps you've read on the "Who Do You Trade" blog, that I sense being called out for not proposing a trade for Skinner, when I suggested that he is the player I'd look at to effect a significant change in the composition of this team.

 

Now I'm not sure if your reference to "trade Skinner ASAP" was a comment intended to address my thoughts, but to clarify, although I'd advocate to strongly consider trading this player, that I didn't necessarily intend "ASAP". 

 

Now in the voluminous discussions that have involved Jeff Skinner, I just cannot conceive , if we Canes fans have explored his "warts" ad infinitum, how its reasonable to expect that GM's throughout the league don't have a comprehensive view of him also? If I understand the arguments for insisting on a "reasonable" return, and I may not, than I have 2 questions. 1st, there appears to be multiple flaws in his game, discussed at such length that I'll not attempt to repeat. If so, and the pervasive argument seems to be to hold on to this player to correct, and thereby make him more attractive in a trade scenario, my question becomes, How long do we use this approach? Wks, Mos, Yrs? And do we ever attain a point where we get what we perceive as "equal value"?

 

2ndly, you addressed this, the issue of concussive fraility is huge, unpredictable and medically unknown! Will the next incident be catastrophic or will he be able to weather it again? I think it fairly evident that Skinner's basic playing style coupled possibly with bad luck has culminated in the precarious situation. What's worse, I don't know that this style can be trained out of him, and still leave him as an effective player. If for instance, his style is a product of subconscious habits he evolved as a child skating protégé, than it might be impossible to unlearn??

 

Therefore, my question becomes, At what point do you pull the plug, and please don't misunderstand, I love Jeff as much as anyone on here? I'd welcome a comeback from him as he WAS an amazing talent.  

 

Kjun- no, my comment wasn't in reference to you or anyone else specifically.  I just grabbed a couple extreme examples of the negative "tone" that I've been feeling on the boards so as to point out to coastal why I didn't catch his attempt at humor as such.  The better (more extreme) example was that we should fire Peters. :P

 

As far as your questions about my thoughts on Skinner;

 

Sure, NHL GMs are going to have complete insight as to Skinner's warts. And concussion risk (which I think should be it's own factor separate from his other negatives).  What they're also going to have, and what I haven't heard mentioned much at all in the discussion about trading Skinner, are his . . . what's the opposite of warts?  :lol: 

 

On the plus side:

Skinner has shown to be an elite goal scorer over his first 4 years in the league (the stats back that up).  He's tied for #26 in total NHL goals scored over that period in spite of the concussions, and his G/60 min ranking is much better (#8 overall for 5-on-5 play, #15 overall for all situation).  And that's on a below average team. 

 

He's still only 22 years old and most forwards hit their scoring peak (I believe) somewhere near 26 or 27.

 

He's still only 22 years old which at least leaves the possibility that he might improve on some of his warts.

 

We hit most of Skinner's negative qualities, one positive one is his record as one of the best in the league at drawing penalties.  Not a huge deal imo, but I'm a GM selling Skinner, I'm going to list it.

 

So offsetting Skinner's warts is a very high potential ceiling with regards to scoring, a skill I perceive as being highly valued in the NHL.

 

All of this is subject to how how much one thinks Skinners career is going to be negatively impacted by additional concussions. And that is the biggest question imo.

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Kjun- no, my comment wasn't in reference to you or anyone else specifically.  I just grabbed a couple extreme examples of the negative "tone" that I've been feeling on the boards so as to point out to coastal why I didn't catch his attempt at humor as such.  The better (more extreme) example was that we should fire Peters. :P

 

As far as your questions about my thoughts on Skinner;

 

Sure, NHL GMs are going to have complete insight as to Skinner's warts. And concussion risk (which I think should be it's own factor separate from his other negatives).  What they're also going to have, and what I haven't heard mentioned much at all in the discussion about trading Skinner, are his . . . what's the opposite of warts?  :lol:

 

On the plus side:

Skinner has shown to be an elite goal scorer over his first 4 years in the league (the stats back that up).  He's tied for #26 in total NHL goals scored over that period in spite of the concussions, and his G/60 min ranking is much better (#8 overall for 5-on-5 play, #15 overall for all situation).  And that's on a below average team. 

 

He's still only 22 years old and most forwards hit their scoring peak (I believe) somewhere near 26 or 27.

 

He's still only 22 years old which at least leaves the possibility that he might improve on some of his warts.

 

We hit most of Skinner's negative qualities, one positive one is his record as one of the best in the league at drawing penalties.  Not a huge deal imo, but I'm a GM selling Skinner, I'm going to list it.

 

So offsetting Skinner's warts is a very high potential ceiling with regards to scoring, a skill I perceive as being highly valued in the NHL.

 

All of this is subject to how how much one thinks Skinners career is going to be negatively impacted by additional concussions. And that is the biggest question imo.

Very well said, Lake. The concussion issue is the biggest question mark with Skinner, and (while I'm not comparing them talent-wise) he is facing the exact same learning curve as Crosby, who was also thought to be one concussion away from ending his career.

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Fair enough Lake and top. I don't want to prolong these argumentative discussions to either one of you(or anyone else), but in terms of statistics, and whereas I completely agree with the premise of "larger sampling" being more predictive, what  I wonder out of your statistic is how is this trending? My gut tells me that much of his goal scoring came on the front end, with downward trend recently?

 

Next, as to drawing penalties, am I imagining this, but again, is the "league" tiring of what is perceived as "embellishment", and his effectiveness at drawing penalties diminishing?

 

Finally, and believe me I appreciate your looking at his good qualities, and no doubt there are considerable, IN THE RIGHT MILEAU, the one issue I raised which neither of you addressed and perhaps no one considers, is how much of his skating style is innate? If it is, than can he be retrained? Sure, we can cite Crosby and say he appears to have learned, but as we all know, each player is different and just because one player was able to adapt, does not mean another can.

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LakeLivin, on 05 Feb 2015 - 12:12, said:snapback.png

 

 

Ok, first off, I like the joke. 

 

But :pb:  for leaving out "some seem to be implying that we should dump Skinner asap regardless of the return" since that totally changes the meaning of my post.  ;)

 

 

Sorry Lake, I didn't mean anything by the deletion. I was just trying to shorten the post and point out the negativity vs. humor thing. I didn't mean to change the context of anything. My post was simply for humor, it wasn't in reference to the points you were making concerning Skinner.

 

At least I didn't get a double-minor or a major.

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Ok, now that I've discovered it, I'm sending Kjun to :pb:!!

 

No, not for your opinion on Skinner :P. That's what this forum is for, a place to share our opinions. 

 

What should be penalized is teasing us with an interesting article(?) but not providing enough information so we can find it. I looked at the Canes Corner site, googled varying combinations of "Canes Corner" and "sittler27", and couldn't find anything.  Can you cut and paste the link to the material?

 

 

Just to further expound on the previous posting, Sittler27, on Canes Corner gives a little of his personal insight on how he was affected by his concussion. Worth reading and certainly explains some issues we've witnessed in Jeff.

 

As to your question about Skinner's style of play and the chances of him modding it to lessen chances of future concussions, that's way out of my range of technical expertise.  If someone else has an informed take on that, I'd love to hear it as well.

Edited by LakeLivin

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Sorry Lake, I didn't mean anything by the deletion. I was just trying to shorten the post and point out the negativity vs. humor thing. I didn't mean to change the context of anything. My post was simply for humor, it wasn't in reference to the points you were making concerning Skinner.

 

At least I didn't get a double-minor or a major.

 

No problem Kyrule, I just didn't want people to think that I see Skinner as untouchable. :)

Edited by LakeLivin

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If Kane did some how get here. off ice issues or not our fearless vocal captain would keep.Kane in check.

 

I didn't know Roddy is back! :lol:

 

Hopefully we learn our lesson with picking up a "problem child" from another team, thrives for a couple season, signs a huge contract before tanking it.

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