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Top,

 

Well thought-out post and very clear.

 

Well, everyone here knows how I feel about Skinner. He's a rare talent who, either by learning to protect himself or having teammates who step up for him, can be a real game-changer. As you well know, Rem, I advocated most of the season for keeping all our youth together (including J Staal) and losing Eric and Alex as the best way to build a team with an identity that enables them to look back as they improve and feel like like they did it together. I think Skinner can and should be a part of that, but if that is not possible, so be it. That said, if we give him up and keep Eric, it will pretty much seal for me that the only thing that has really changed in the GM's office is the name on the door.

 

Yes, I'd like to get player returns for Eric, but realistically, if a team is taking all his salary that's a return in itself, in the form of money to go out and get guys. If we are retaining some salary then absolutely, we need a top-six guy coming back. But I'm fine with either scenario.

 

All of this being said, my gut (and RF's public comments) tell me he has drunk the Eric Staal Kool-Aid and will ride it out at least one more season. If E is his usual slow-starting self next year and the Canes are out of the running for the playoffs by the TD, he's (hopefully) gone - and that would be a feather in RF's cap, IMO. Now as organization-changing as dealing him RIGHT NOW, but at least an acknowledgment that on-ice leadership is non-existent. If E somehow lights it up early next year, though, the news could get really bad, b/c RF will face pressure to re-up him and can try to frame it as a good thing - even though it would really do nothing more than saddle us with crummy on-ice leadership for x more years, until E decides to hang 'em up.

 

I hate to sound this resigned to such a scenario, but it is what it is. I truly believe Eric Staal can dominate when he wants to, and that he is only slightly less lazy than Alex Semin. I really do. So my fear is that he will come out gangbusters next year, secure his next contract, and then it'll be more of the same. There is just too big of a sample size at this point to reasonably believe anything else, at least for me. So (again, for me) unless and until Ronnie does the admittedly very hard thing he must do - end the era of Eric - I am believe the prospects of this team producing markedly different results with Eric on the roster - in any role - are slim and none.

 

Top, well thought out post and clear.

 

At the deadline I was having trouble figuring you out. I guess you just wanted to wait and deal with this in the offseason. 

My point at the deadline was why not clear the decks now? Maybe E goes along w/ a trade to a contender...but the move either wasn't there or wasn't made. Or E blocked it. Probably wasn't there. So in the end we offloaded one of our best players for a pick next year and a prospect, and offloaded the rest to restock the minor league pond a bit. Fine. But those are just some early clear out moves. They make us considerably worse in the short and medium term unless more moves follow.

 

OK. That was all that was there at the deadline. But how about now (this offseason)? I think this off-season is very important for Francis if he wants to put his mark on this team. Semin is an enigma, Eric is a dilemma. Who even knows what affect E might have had on Semin? Just a shot in the dark. Semin has been stunningly bad, but Eric is the constant. He is the one clear cut face of the franchise constant through post cup, and three (now four) coaches, and all kinds of player movement around him. BUT he is still a very good player, and just jettisoning him for a "winning culture" is a double edged sword.

 

THIS is why I would try like crazy to trade him in the offseason, ideally before the draft. His high salary is just for one year, so is more of a cap issue at this point. Here's the other side of that coin. Don't trade him.

 

Ron, if you don't trade Eric, then what? A. We win. Now you have to re-sign him. But another NTC? What salary? B. We lose. He becomes a deadline rental? He has a NTC and could Whitney us. C. We slog by and almost win. We don't trade him, we lose him for nothing.

 

Eric probably wants yet one more whack at it here. So, again the NTC might be the tie that binds. BUT if Eric can be convinced, and could be traded before the draft? It all comes down to return.

 

First round pick, plus at least one decent player. A team with some cap space. After the lottery maybe an upper midround pick and a decent defenseman and a good prospect. One possible place if he didn't have the NTC is Edmonton. They need veterans, they have a slew of top forward prospects, and if they don't win the lottery...but doubt E would allow it. Colorado would be the #9 pick. Trading E out west would be best, and they are an up and coming team. In the East, Columbus could have a cup contender next year with all their bodies healing up plus E? Is in the East, but they have tons of cap space and the #8 pick.

 

The cryptic Ward response, which I didn't see, but heard about here, makes me wonder...Ward has a NTC clause too. This is a huge leap so bear with me. It would be extremely JR-like for Francis to just ride this team one more year until the Ward-E contracts expire, and get little to nothing for them.

 

This would be the year for Francis to put his hand on this team.

 

IF the Ward weirdness was a tell. Then it only makes sense that Ward is NOT the only move. If RF wants to ride this same team into one last sunset, then trading Ward makes NO sense. Our goalies are our biggest strength. It only makes sense to move Ward if other moves area also coming.

 

Would Ward bring a first round pick? Maybe. Would Eric? Yes. Skinner? Check.

 

If Francis moved all three he could load up on the draft and get at least two players back. Also he would have massive cap space to just go ahead and spend a bit to fill a couple of holes with UFA's.

 

Even if he kept Skinner, Ward and E would return two first rounders and probably one position player. Say he pulled off a move with Colorado for E, and say San Jose for Ward (just examples): we'd get the number 5, 9, 11 picks this year, and two first rounders next year.

 

But Franicis would also have a big cap space opening to just try to flat out buy a defenseman, and a veteran forward.

 

Next year the team could surprise with those pieces in place. But if not? Who couldn't see the coming greatness, with another high pick plus LA's first rounder next year (could be used to move up also), and all of this year's top picks and our boy Fleury all coming on line with the expected improvement of Rask and Lindholm.

 

I don't know, Ward might not bring that back, but then why trade him?

 

The main problem w/ trading Ward is the gamble for next year in goal. RF would have to find a back up, and Khudobin would have to be ready for prime time.

 

 

It would be interesting to see if Francis has a move like that in him this year. Is the Ward thing a tell of big moves to come? Or do we like our group one more time?

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Rem, it's hard to describe without experiencing it. This place is like the land of unicorns and lollipops compared to others.

The fans are much more brutal than here. The media puts guys down and puts constant pressure on under-performing players, essentially putting them under a microscope.

Players are essentially run out of town because the big market teams can flex that kind of muscle/exert that kind of pressure.

Smaller market teams have a harder time fixing their mistakes so they have to tread a little lighter. They have to be a little more upbeat (even if it isn't warranted) to try to keep the fan-base hopeful.

I guess what I'm saying is that I think that Carolina has grown enough as an organization, and it's fan-base is knowledgable enough that we could start acting like a bigger market/more established franchise.

Constantly being positive and avoiding the hard questions is fine early on when you are trying to build up optimistic fans, but eventually it gets old, and almost insulting as it becomes obvious that it is a media ploy tailored toward the casual fan.

I want under-performing players to feel the heat. I want players to fear/respect the organization.

I just don't think that is the case here. I think some players think they are above the organization or are too comfortable. I think others think they can "hide" here a little because it's just Carolina and nobody is really watching.

People here have described it as the "country club" atmosphere that exists here when referring to management, but I would like to see that change and extend even further (the fans, the media, etc.) so that players actually feel some pressure to perform.

And I'll just piggy-back here and say that Eric Staal would absolutely wilt in Toronto. As tough as the markets Ky has mentioned can be, when it comes to hockey, Toronto is as brutal as it gets for players, even more so than NY.

 

The reason Eric is sooo freakin' happy here is that he's unaccountable - to the tune of 9.5 million a year.

Edited by top-shelf-1

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Can some of y'all just get to the point a little quicker?

 

I'm finding myself disinterested in reading these long posts.

 

It's gotten a little ridiculous.

 

If not, I'll just start skipping over them.

 

Thanks.

Edited by coastal_caniac

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Can some of y'all just get to the point a little quicker?

 

I'm finding myself disinterested in reading these long posts.

 

It's gotten a little ridiculous.

 

If not, I'll just start skipping over them.

 

Thanks.

 

OK.

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Top,

 

Well thought-out post and very clear.

 

 

Top, well thought out post and clear.

 

At the deadline I was having trouble figuring you out. I guess you just wanted to wait and deal with this in the offseason. 

My point at the deadline was why not clear the decks now? Maybe E goes along w/ a trade to a contender...but the move either wasn't there or wasn't made. Or E blocked it. Probably wasn't there. So in the end we offloaded one of our best players for a pick next year and a prospect, and offloaded the rest to restock the minor league pond a bit. Fine. But those are just some early clear out moves. They make us considerably worse in the short and medium term unless more moves follow.

 

OK. That was all that was there at the deadline. But how about now (this offseason)? I think this off-season is very important for Francis if he wants to put his mark on this team. Semin is an enigma, Eric is a dilemma. Who even knows what affect E might have had on Semin? Just a shot in the dark. Semin has been stunningly bad, but Eric is the constant. He is the one clear cut face of the franchise constant through post cup, and three (now four) coaches, and all kinds of player movement around him. BUT he is still a very good player, and just jettisoning him for a "winning culture" is a double edged sword.

 

THIS is why I would try like crazy to trade him in the offseason, ideally before the draft. His high salary is just for one year, so is more of a cap issue at this point. Here's the other side of that coin. Don't trade him.

 

Ron, if you don't trade Eric, then what? A. We win. Now you have to re-sign him. But another NTC? What salary? B. We lose. He becomes a deadline rental? He has a NTC and could Whitney us. C. We slog by and almost win. We don't trade him, we lose him for nothing.

 

Eric probably wants yet one more whack at it here. So, again the NTC might be the tie that binds. BUT if Eric can be convinced, and could be traded before the draft? It all comes down to return.

 

First round pick, plus at least one decent player. A team with some cap space. After the lottery maybe an upper midround pick and a decent defenseman and a good prospect. One possible place if he didn't have the NTC is Edmonton. They need veterans, they have a slew of top forward prospects, and if they don't win the lottery...but doubt E would allow it. Colorado would be the #9 pick. Trading E out west would be best, and they are an up and coming team. In the East, Columbus could have a cup contender next year with all their bodies healing up plus E? Is in the East, but they have tons of cap space and the #8 pick.

 

The cryptic Ward response, which I didn't see, but heard about here, makes me wonder...Ward has a NTC clause too. This is a huge leap so bear with me. It would be extremely JR-like for Francis to just ride this team one more year until the Ward-E contracts expire, and get little to nothing for them.

 

This would be the year for Francis to put his hand on this team.

 

IF the Ward weirdness was a tell. Then it only makes sense that Ward is NOT the only move. If RF wants to ride this same team into one last sunset, then trading Ward makes NO sense. Our goalies are our biggest strength. It only makes sense to move Ward if other moves area also coming.

 

Would Ward bring a first round pick? Maybe. Would Eric? Yes. Skinner? Check.

 

If Francis moved all three he could load up on the draft and get at least two players back. Also he would have massive cap space to just go ahead and spend a bit to fill a couple of holes with UFA's.

 

Even if he kept Skinner, Ward and E would return two first rounders and probably one position player. Say he pulled off a move with Colorado for E, and say San Jose for Ward (just examples): we'd get the number 5, 9, 11 picks this year, and two first rounders next year.

 

But Franicis would also have a big cap space opening to just try to flat out buy a defenseman, and a veteran forward.

 

Next year the team could surprise with those pieces in place. But if not? Who couldn't see the coming greatness, with another high pick plus LA's first rounder next year (could be used to move up also), and all of this year's top picks and our boy Fleury all coming on line with the expected improvement of Rask and Lindholm.

 

I don't know, Ward might not bring that back, but then why trade him?

 

The main problem w/ trading Ward is the gamble for next year in goal. RF would have to find a back up, and Khudobin would have to be ready for prime time.

 

 

It would be interesting to see if Francis has a move like that in him this year. Is the Ward thing a tell of big moves to come? Or do we like our group one more time?

Glad you finally figured me out :)

 

My aversion to doing anything at the TD this year was based mainly on mgt's promise going in, that this was the year that everybody would be evaluated. If RF/BP broke that promise, player trust in mgt would be lost, and anytime management loses worker trust - which there are strong indications was the case under JR - bad things happen.

 

So, I'm glad they saw it through.

 

I'm glad the Canes were competitive about 70 percent of the time, despite their marquee players being absolutely terrible.

 

Most of all, I'm having a hard time seeing how you dump any of the 16 guys (including Cam) who proved they want to play here, in order to retain the four who simply. Did. Not.

 

Lumping Jordan (and even Skinner) into that latter group is hard/borderline unfair, given his injury. But at the end of the day, IF the deal is that in order to keep J we must also keep E, nope, sorry. That is unfair to management, to fans - to pretty much everybody except Eric, who then laughs all the way to the bank. I'll even include Jordan as one to whom it is unfair, because it ties his success to his brother's. After watching Eric for all this time, I was completely unsurprised that Marc did not want to come here, and can't help but wonder if Jordan has any regrets. 

 

I've been asking this now for eight years, without an answer: At what point does Eric Staal stand up on his own, accept personal accountability for his lousy leadership and, instead of blaming the lack of wingers "he can work with" start playing EVERY NIGHT, EVERY SHIFT, like a guy pulling down $9.5 million is expected to play?

 

The fact that I've received only one playoff season in reply is exactly why I want Eric traded, preferably the day after the Cup is raised.

Edited by top-shelf-1

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Can some of y'all just get to the point a little quicker?

 

I'm finding myself disinterested in reading these long posts.

 

It's gotten a little ridiculous.

 

If not, I'll just start skipping over them.

 

Thanks.

Maybe we need a text-message version of this board just for coastal  :P

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Well Top, that would be the other extreme, but since you seem to like to deal in extremes it's not a surprising comment..... :rolleyes:

 

And I'm sure it's not just me, seems I remember a recent comment somewhere suggesting the same thing.

 

If I have to scroll down an entire page to maybe find a point somewhere I stop reading.  I'm interested in what everyone thinks so it's a shame, but like I said, no biggie, I'll just start skipping over them.

 

That's about it. :)

Edited by coastal_caniac

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Well Top, that would be the other extreme, but since you seem to like to deal in extremes it's not a surprising comment..... :rolleyes:

 

And I'm sure it's not just me, seems I remember a recent comment somewhere suggesting the same thing.

 

If I have to scroll down an entire page to maybe find a point somewhere I stop reading.  I'm interested in what everyone thinks so it's a shame, but like I said, no biggie, I'll just start skipping over them.

 

That's about it.

That's cool, was just trying to get a laugh out of you. 

 

:rolleyes:  back atcha.

Edited by top-shelf-1

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Ha ha, give me a couple of more weeks Top and I probably won't be so grumpy.

 

On blowing up the team now, I just don't know what folks are expecting RF to do?  I'm pretty sure blowing up the team and finding suitable replacements is much harder to do in real life than making it happen here on a message board.  Especially in one off season.

 

Seems to me if that is the plan (to get rid of connected at the hip Staals, Skinner, and Semin) it would have to be a big move at the draft or at next years' trade deadline, or both.

 

Exit interviews should be interesting this year.  Get off your sofa Chip and do your job and get some good stuff.  Otherwise we will send Rem back up there.

Edited by coastal_caniac

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Ha ha, give me a couple of more weeks Top and I probably won't be so grumpy.

 

On blowing up the team now, I just don't know what folks are expecting RF to do?  I'm pretty sure blowing up the team and finding suitable replacements is much harder to do in real life than making it happen here on a message board.  Especially in one off season.

 

Seems to me if that is the plan (to get rid of connected at the hip Staals, Skinner, and Semin) it would have to be a big move at the draft or at next years' trade deadline, or both.

 

Exit interviews should be interesting this year.  Get off your sofa Chip and do your job and get some good stuff.  Otherwise we will send Rem back up there.

If you want to feel better, here's a suggestion: Follow the Sens. What a great story.

 

They're playing Philly right now, up 2-1, less than a minute in the second.

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Hammond is about to deal with what Cam did 10 years ago. It'll be interesting to see if he develops solid fundamentals after this run so he can have longevity, or sticks to acrobatics.

Edited by top-shelf-1

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Like Coastal, unfortunately there are many posts for me that fall into the TL;DR bucket. Strangely, I did read the last few in this thread.

I agree on the fatique, and as one poster put it, the definition of insanity. I'm on board for major change, and hope RF is, too.

Eric and Skinner are too slow IMO to play BP's style. Their cheating, head start, hanging at the Blue Line is very telling. Their dis-interest in defense is part of that problem. I'd hate to see Skinner go,but feel it is best for him and us. We have multi-years of evidence with Eric and it is time for change.

Lastly, thank God our fan support is unlike Philly's. When was their last Cup to prove how effective it has been?

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How did I know that my post would be taken completely out of context.

Not once did I say I want us to be like Philly, I'm pretty sure I said the exact opposite.

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On blowing up the team now, I just don't know what folks are expecting RF to do?  I'm pretty sure blowing up the team and finding suitable replacements is much harder to do in real life than making it happen here on a message board.  Especially in one off season.

 

Otherwise we will send Rem back up there.

 

Yeah, blowing it up requires a willing trade partner for each move, and in the case of E and Ward a waiving on the NTC. The charges have to be placed correctly or you just get destruction. That it what I'm on about when I keep harping on return.

 

But, while E has never said he would waive, he's never said he wouldn't, and Cam keeps acting like a trade is about to go down, so I have to think he's not planning on forcing his NTC. Skinner, just need the right trading partner.

 

I guess that's the thing I'd like to know. Is RF just not hearing the right deal yet, or is he really sold on this group?

 

 

As to the other thing..send me in coach!!!

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Actually if you read Chip Alexander's story today  CanesNow  E clearly stated he want to be part of this team but said he wouldn't stand in the way of a trade (depending on where) if Canes decided to change direction.

 

My feeling is E gets another year or at least part of one.

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If we beat Wings,  Sen move up to 3rd in their division, great story,  they deserve to be in, hope they make some noise.... Praying, Bruins just lose, even though, pens dont deserve to be in it..

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Everyone, I'm new here but I've been lurking around here for a while. Just a comment, if there's an expansion draft soon, it might help us if decides to take Semin off of us.

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Everyone, I'm new here but I've been lurking around here for a while. Just a comment, if there's an expansion draft soon, it might help us if decides to take Semin off of us.

 

Welcome donwake.  Semin wandering aimlessly in the desert, now there's a thought.

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14-15 mercifully over. How apropos we end up being shut out!! Thanks all for stimulating discussions thru this year, Hopefully the off seasons moves forward with some improved moves and outstanding draft, Praying we'll be cheering on April 18th.Go Canes

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Actually if you read Chip Alexander's story today  CanesNow  E clearly stated he want to be part of this team but said he wouldn't stand in the way of a trade (depending on where) if Canes decided to change direction.

 

My feeling is E gets another year or at least part of one.

He'll go at the deadline.  It'll be a easier pill for a contender to swallow at that point.

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Actually if you read Chip Alexander's story today  CanesNow  E clearly stated he want to be part of this team but said he wouldn't stand in the way of a trade (depending on where) if Canes decided to change direction.

 

My feeling is E gets another year or at least part of one.

 

Hadn't seen that. Well good. Of course he is saying depending on where you ship me, like you pointed out, but then I'm guessing Ward is of the same mind. That means Francis can make moves. I wonder if the idea of taking less cash comes up.

 

It could get tricky if E. stays and we're better, but not great...

 

Forslund said he is sure that Francis knows what he wants to do and it will be an interesting offseason. Of course he doesn't really even clearly hint what Francis will do. But the hint is strong it will be more than "We like our group". Could be an interesting offseason.

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Everyone, I'm new here but I've been lurking around here for a while. Just a comment, if there's an expansion draft soon, it might help us if decides to take Semin off of us.

Hey donwake, welcome. 

 

So you're thinking if the NHL were to announce this summer plans to expand in 2016-17, and since Semin is under contract anyway, it makes sense to give him a final chance and to start the season with everyone indisputably healthy. If he produces great, and if not he moves out to Vegas or Seattle or Quebec City or to an existing franchise in 2016, thanks to the additional openings created by expansion? (Tell me if I'm misreading you.) 

 

That's certainly an option, but I favor a more proactive approach, especially if RF and BP are serious about instilling accountability at every level of the organization. It's just my opinion, but BOTH Eric and Semin have slid by for too long without repercussions. The longer the rest of the roster sees that (the guys who are working their butts off night in and night out) the less toward accountability and more toward the kind of passive management approach of the JR era we move. This team has missed the playoffs for six straight years now, and for the new management team not to take this opportunity to follow through on setting the new tone, right now, this summer - since the whole basis of the season just ended was that everyone needs to prove their value - would send the wrong message. So I think Semin has to be bought out, now, regardless of the league's expansion plans. As for Eric...

 

The "typical" approach with franchise players is to extend them before their last season on the current deal begins. That means E would get his extension this summer. Not doing the extension would certainly send him a message going into October, especially if expansion plans are announced. But my concern is that he'll step it up enough to get a new deal before next years' trade deadline, and then we're saddled with more of the same for an indeterminate number of years and, more important, we've changed nothing culturally, in the room, if he remains. Even if he doesn't remain Captain but remains on the roster, I think there is a good chance he becomes a destabilizing influence in the room, not intentionally mind you, but just by virtue of being the former Captain and still being there. Former Captains need also to be former players, IMO, if an org is truly going to move on.

 

Look what that change did for Calgary - and that's in spite of their former Captain being universally loved in that city and by everyone, top to bottom, in the org.

 

I think this summer is the time for for the new brain trust to do what it has to do, regardless of the league's larger plans. We've got two young players on the verge of stardom (Lindy and Rask) one stud Dman who is already there, and a solid second-line center who can play the first slot until Rask is ready. So let's bring in the combination of youthful, hungry players and journeymen guys we need now; the longer they play together the better their chances of success as a unit for multiple years, which in turn buys us time to develop our picks and establish a rotation of players onto and off of the NHL roster as they develop, age, and their roles change.

Edited by top-shelf-1

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As we transition this thing to off season talk, I'll just point out that I have posted a thought about some of this on the Off Season thread.

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