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If Ron Francis reads this board.....

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It's time to blow it up, sir. I can already see whats going to happen. We are going to continue to be horrible until we get somewhat healthy and we get everyone slotted on their normal lines. When we regain some health, we will play .500 hockey or slightly above average and miss the playoffs again resulting in a mid-level 1st rd draft pick. We need to follow the penguins rebuild when they got Crosby, Malkin, etc. Now I'm not advocating a fire sale...but there are some key moves we need to make.

 

Priority #1 - Trade Semin

When the going gets tough, Semin disappears. I feel he would be a contributor on a playoff team however, so we should dump his salary and get some young prospects back. He's on pace to earn $304,000 per point for us (23 pts).

 

Priority #2 - Sign Eric to an extension right now.

Eric's value is at an all-time low right now. He's coming off a down year last year and is hurt again to start this year. But he's only 30 years old and has at least 5 years left in him. Sign him to a deal that lowers his cap hit into the $4-6M range once his current deal expires.

 

Priority #3 - Do not rush Jordan back.

His recovery period was deemed to be 3-4 months. I'd let him rest till March. That would leave us 21 games or so left and hopefully we have a good lead on worst record by then. 21 games is enough time for Jordan to knock the rust off and prepare for next season.

 

Priority #4 - Make every player available who is making $1M+ except Eric, Jordan, Skinner, Khudobin, and Faulk (I guess).

 

This means if somebody wants Cam, Gerbe, Hainsey, or Liles, you look up the quickest flight. Tlusty and Sekera are our best trade pieces, so if you can't get them to sign reasonable extensions, move them. They are UFA's anyways. We need to create the Carolina Checkers for 4-5 months. If we can dump Semin ($7M), Cam ($6.3M cap hit) and Liles (3.9M cap hit) alone, we would approach the cap floor. Now obviously, the tricky part is finding trade partners with cap space but there will be some surprise teams out there who could use a 1st line winger or an extra defensemen. I would try to trade for injured/high salary guys who will be UFA's soon with some prospects thrown in. This should be our team for the next 4-5 months.

 

(prospect or extended Tlusty)-Eric-Lindholm

Skinner-Nash-(prospect or dwyer)

Terry-Mclement-Boychuck

Malone-Rask-Brown

 

(extended Sekera or prospect) - Faulk

Gleason-Harrison

Bellemore-Murphy

 

Khudobin

minor league goaltender

 

This lineup means we have traded Semin, Cam, Gerbe, Hainsey, and Liles and extended Sekera/Tlusty. The only guys with NTC's are Cam, Hainsey and Liles. Only Cam's is a full NTC. If Cam refuses a trade, you waive him to the AHL. It's a tough decision but Cam has been well compensated the past 5 years, we don't owe him anything more for his Stanley Cup performance. What do you guys think? Any changes or other suggestions?

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If Ron Francis reads this board I have two options for him: Post something or get back to work!

 

Seriously, I'm a glass-half-full guy, a loyal citizen of Remkin Island, a faithful follower of the old-core of players who once wore the sightless eye in the post season of 2009... BUT, I'm tied of this second-rate sub-par hockey I've seen in the last three seasons.  I am ready to cut ties with most all the guys who we've been keeping around and patiently waiting to show up.  Semin, EStaal, Skinner, Wardo, etc... I never wanted to see you go in the past, but now it's time for you to get yourselves straightened out and play to your potential or get out.  Seriously, I'm tired of seeing EStaal take shifts off, fail to show total effort, etc.  I'm tired of seeing Skinner and Semin show-up for 20 minutes then fade away for 40 night after night.  How come we have to bring in a head coach with a mantra of "Earn your place" to convince our star players to try to "Earn their place"?  Where is the heart that made this team special in the past... our franchise was known for that characteristic.  Complacency has replaced Effort with the Hurricanes in the last few years - our big money guys have been doing nothing... I'm at the point where I am ready to cut bait on the whole lot of them.  I'm sick of seeing guys like Dwyer and Gleason and Nash and Gerbe out performing and out working our so called stars.  I'd rather have a team of no-name players with tons of heart than a team full of divas who decide when to show-up and complain or stop in their tracks when things don't go their way.  There is a reason why Rudy is the best sports story ever told.

 

"It's not about me, it's about the guy in front of me." "It's not about the name on the back, it's about the logo on the front."

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It's time to blow it up, sir. I can already see whats going to happen. We are going to continue to be horrible until we get somewhat healthy and we get everyone slotted on their normal lines. When we regain some health, we will play .500 hockey or slightly above average and miss the playoffs again resulting in a mid-level 1st rd draft pick. We need to follow the penguins rebuild when they got Crosby, Malkin, etc. Now I'm not advocating a fire sale...but there are some key moves we need to make.

 

Priority #1 - Trade Semin

When the going gets tough, Semin disappears. I feel he would be a contributor on a playoff team however, so we should dump his salary and get some young prospects back. He's on pace to earn $304,000 per point for us (23 pts).

 

Priority #2 - Sign Eric to an extension right now.

Eric's value is at an all-time low right now. He's coming off a down year last year and is hurt again to start this year. But he's only 30 years old and has at least 5 years left in him. Sign him to a deal that lowers his cap hit into the $4-6M range once his current deal expires.

 

Priority #3 - Do not rush Jordan back.

His recovery period was deemed to be 3-4 months. I'd let him rest till March. That would leave us 21 games or so left and hopefully we have a good lead on worst record by then. 21 games is enough time for Jordan to knock the rust off and prepare for next season.

 

Priority #4 - Make every player available who is making $1M+ except Eric, Jordan, Skinner, Khudobin, and Faulk (I guess).

 

This means if somebody wants Cam, Gerbe, Hainsey, or Liles, you look up the quickest flight. Tlusty and Sekera are our best trade pieces, so if you can't get them to sign reasonable extensions, move them. They are UFA's anyways. We need to create the Carolina Checkers for 4-5 months. If we can dump Semin ($7M), Cam ($6.3M cap hit) and Liles (3.9M cap hit) alone, we would approach the cap floor. Now obviously, the tricky part is finding trade partners with cap space but there will be some surprise teams out there who could use a 1st line winger or an extra defensemen. I would try to trade for injured/high salary guys who will be UFA's soon with some prospects thrown in. This should be our team for the next 4-5 months.

 

(prospect or extended Tlusty)-Eric-Lindholm

Skinner-Nash-(prospect or dwyer)

Terry-Mclement-Boychuck

Malone-Rask-Brown

 

(extended Sekera or prospect) - Faulk

Gleason-Harrison

Bellemore-Murphy

 

Khudobin

minor league goaltender

 

This lineup means we have traded Semin, Cam, Gerbe, Hainsey, and Liles and extended Sekera/Tlusty. The only guys with NTC's are Cam, Hainsey and Liles. Only Cam's is a full NTC. If Cam refuses a trade, you waive him to the AHL. It's a tough decision but Cam has been well compensated the past 5 years, we don't owe him anything more for his Stanley Cup performance. What do you guys think? Any changes or other suggestions?

And what's our return for these mediocre-at-best players? Or do you just not care and are advocating a salary dump and downgrading the team's ability so severely that it guarantees a dead-last finish, so we are assured of the top pick?

 

You want to extend Eric Staal, when

(1) his value is about to be at its career peak (trade deadline)

(2) he has failed to lead the team to the playoffs for five straight years,

(3) he has failed to find magic with any of the parade of wingers that has passed through for all five of those years (except for about three weeks two years ago when his line was the hottest in hockey), and

(4) he just turned 30?

 

Really??

Edited by top-shelf-1

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I would be impressed if he admitted he was here even a a lurker.   He must have some idea of the level of discontent in Canes nation.  It will be interesting to see the turnout in this weekend's games after the Canes have been away for about a month

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8 games in, getting guys back, we arent the 80s  oilers, but seriously, you all are intelligent hockey fans, give it a little time.. I would hope that we all know we HAVE  the coach.

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And what's our return for these mediocre-at-best players? Or do you just not care and are advocating a salary dump and downgrading the team's ability so severely that it guarantees a dead-last finish, so we are assured of the top pick?

 

You want to extend Eric Staal, when

(1) his value is about to be at its career peak (trade deadline)

(2) he has failed to lead the team to the playoffs for five straight years,

(3) he has failed to find magic with any of the parade of wingers that has passed through for all five of those years (except for about three weeks two years ago when his line was the hottest in hockey), and

(4) he just turned 30?

 

Really??

You are right. Most of the players I suggested trading are mediocre and are worth a couple of prospects at best. Some of those prospects turn into Drayson Bowmans and some turn into Tlustys. I'm looking at the freed salary mostly, there is no reason to keep high salary, mediocre players. But I disagree with your assessment of Eric.

 

(1) his value is about to be at its career peak (trade deadline)

Have you looked at some of the deals suggested in the headlines?  They are either for young guys who have ceilings of 2nd-3rd line or lower 1st rd draft picks. The team that trades the star player always gets pennies on the dollar. Just look at Buffalo and Thomas Vanek. Buffalo got 1 guaranteed year of Moulson, and a 1st and 2nd rd pick in 2015 (Most likely just outside top 10). We are expected to get way less than this because the Islanders overpaid.

(2) he has failed to lead the team to the playoffs for five straight years,

1 person does not make a team. Besides Staal, who has been a consistent performer for us?

(3) he has failed to find magic with any of the parade of wingers that has passed through for all five of those years (except for about three weeks two years ago when his line was the hottest in hockey), and

Actually history shows that he usually is pretty good with anybody on his line. Ray Whitney, Erik Cole, Jokinen, Tlusty, Semin(until this year...I blame healthy scratch Semin)

(4) he just turned 30?

So? Brindamour retired at almost age 40. Hockey players can play a long time. Even if you say he is not in the same shape as Rod, he still has at least 5 good years left in his career. Its not like we have another 1st line center we can slot in there and I doubt we will get one back in a trade. Do you think Riley Nash is a 70 pt guy? I don't. Guys like Eric don't just fall in your lap every draft...we won't be able to replace his production.

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You are right. Most of the players I suggested trading are mediocre and are worth a couple of prospects at best. Some of those prospects turn into Drayson Bowmans and some turn into Tlustys. I'm looking at the freed salary mostly, there is no reason to keep high salary, mediocre players. But I disagree with your assessment of Eric.

 

(1) his value is about to be at its career peak (trade deadline)

Have you looked at some of the deals suggested in the headlines?  They are either for young guys who have ceilings of 2nd-3rd line or lower 1st rd draft picks. The team that trades the star player always gets pennies on the dollar. Just look at Buffalo and Thomas Vanek. Buffalo got 1 guaranteed year of Moulson, and a 1st and 2nd rd pick in 2015 (Most likely just outside top 10). We are expected to get way less than this because the Islanders overpaid.

(2) he has failed to lead the team to the playoffs for five straight years,

1 person does not make a team. Besides Staal, who has been a consistent performer for us?

(3) he has failed to find magic with any of the parade of wingers that has passed through for all five of those years (except for about three weeks two years ago when his line was the hottest in hockey), and

Actually history shows that he usually is pretty good with anybody on his line. Ray Whitney, Erik Cole, Jokinen, Tlusty, Semin(until this year...I blame healthy scratch Semin)

(4) he just turned 30?

So? Brindamour retired at almost age 40. Hockey players can play a long time. Even if you say he is not in the same shape as Rod, he still has at least 5 good years left in his career. Its not like we have another 1st line center we can slot in there and I doubt we will get one back in a trade. Do you think Riley Nash is a 70 pt guy? I don't. Guys like Eric don't just fall in your lap every draft...we won't be able to replace his production.

 

Have you looked at some of the deals suggested in the headlines?  They are either for young guys who have ceilings of 2nd-3rd line or lower 1st rd draft picks. The team that trades the star player always gets pennies on the dollar. Just look at Buffalo and Thomas Vanek. Buffalo got 1 guaranteed year of Moulson, and a 1st and 2nd rd pick in 2015 (Most likely just outside top 10). We are expected to get way less than this because the Islanders overpaid.

Yup, I've looked at the deals, and you are correct - and that is why we haven't done them. Eric needs to prove himself healthy before serious offers come. What happened in the off-season was Toronto hoping a new GM would give them a bargain. That said, your logic re Vanek cuts both ways. Look at what happened in Calgary once they got out from under Iginla's underperforming legacy. That franchise is re-energized. Not saying it will (or won't) happen here, just that one never knows - and when you're trying to change organizational culture, you have to look at every component.

 

Now, if Eric comes back not just healthy but with a vengeance - which is what he has lacked for the past five years, IMO, that "whatever it takes" approach - his stated desire to stay here will be backed up by his performance, and his price goes even higher, assuming he'd waive the NTC. My hope has always been that Eric will fulfill the promise his contract assigned to him, and I think it is Ronnie's, Peters' and everyone else's. But up to now, his performance and his salary have been two very different, and therefore very difficult-to-reconcile things. Based on last night - and it was just one game - he has gotten the message from management that he has to earn his roster spot like everyone else, and that his is the TOP roster spot. Making that clear - i.e., separating his personal hopes and affection for the kid from the making him accountable - is what JR refused to do himself and prevented Kirk from doing, so it can only be a good thing for both Eric and the team going forward that it is finally happening.

 

Lastly on this, I'd just remind you that lots of people right here in NC thought Andrew Ladd had a second-line ceiling. Blues captain David Backes was a second-round pick, 62nd overall. Just a couple examples of why NOT to assign a ceiling to the abilities of anyone who plays at this level.

 

1 person does not make a teamBesides Staal, who has been a consistent performer for us?

Tlusty. Skinner. Faulk. Sekera. Nash. Lindy. 

 

Actually history shows that he usually is pretty good with anybody on his line. Ray Whitney, Erik Cole, Jokinen, Tlusty, Semin(until this year...I blame healthy scratch Semin)

But 9.5 million is not the price of "pretty good" in today's NHL. 9.5 million buys GREAT. In any other town in this league (except maybe Phoenix), the failure of anyone making that kind coin to go to the front of the net, to produce clutch scoring, or to put the team on his back and carry it, would have opened him to criticism long before now. Again, I am glad Eric appears to have gotten the message, because the last thing I want is for our investment in him to be a net loss. But to be clear, "pretty good" isn't good enough at his pay grade.

 

 

So? Brindamour retired at almost age 40. Hockey players can play a long time. Even if you say he is not in the same shape as Rod, he still has at least 5 good years left in his career. Its not like we have another 1st line center we can slot in there and I doubt we will get one back in a trade. Do you think Riley Nash is a 70 pt guy? I don't. Guys like Eric don't just fall in your lap every draft...we won't be able to replace his production.

I never said he wouldn't play for a long time, I said that he is at his most valuable on the trade market at the upcoming deadline. Do you think we'll ever get anything close to what we could now for Eric if we extend him five years and try to move him at 35? No. That was my only point: His value will never again be as high as it is now, because 30 is a key factor in trade value. The only scenario under which Eric's value *might* be higher than it will be at the upcoming deadline is if he just lights it up like crazy this year, we keep him, make the playoffs, and then the team tanks in the first half of next year. 

 

And yes, of course we have another first-line center, and a younger one to boot: Eric's brother, Jordan.

Edited by top-shelf-1

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Same people, same conversation.

 

Eric Staal - has a NTC and won't waive it. He wants to play with his brother who also has a NTC. They aren't leaving. Even if they wanted to, what team wants a $8.5 cap hit with a actual $9.5 payout for a underperforming player? 

 

The question you should be asking is do we want Marc Staal if Eric and Jordan can convince him to leave NY? Do we already have too many Staal's? Does what he bring on D outweigh and of the family complications? Also very interesting point the #12's worth is at a all time low (I agree), but I don't think he can negotiate a new contract till he is within a year of his current one ending. 

 

Semin - he's lazy and sucks. That is all the legacy of Jim Rutherford. Way to much term and money. Should be traded for anything...

 

Tlusty/ Sekera - lock them up if we can. Both have been good for the Canes and both have had better careers here than anywhere.

 

Skinner/ Faulk - they are using them as building blocks for better or worse. I think Skins will end up a vegetable, but just my opinion. Skins also has a NTC so doubtful he leaves...

 

Nash - sign this guy to a extension ASAP. He's played great, tries harder than almost anyone and is a stand up guy. 

 

Lindholm - he's finding his game, part of being drafted by the canes is you get rushed to mature. I think he is doing alright.

 

Our defense is the WORST. We need decent guys on D. Harrison, Gleason and Liles were all laughed out by the Leafs. If we want to be competitive, we can't take others trash. We could have gone after Leddy or Boychuk (both way better than everyone but Faulk and Sekera) but Francis is happy with what we have, his hands are tied by Karmnos or he's lacking common sense. 

 

 

Just my two cents... 

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The Vanek trade by Buffalo could be a blessing in disguise since his next sweater could have stripes with more than 2 digits for numbers playing for the Rough Riders of the N.Y. penal league.

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Same people, same conversation.

 

Eric Staal - has a NTC and won't waive it. He wants to play with his brother who also has a NTC. They aren't leaving. Even if they wanted to, what team wants a $8.5 cap hit with a actual $9.5 payout for a underperforming player? 

 

The question you should be asking is do we want Marc Staal if Eric and Jordan can convince him to leave NY? Do we already have too many Staal's? Does what he bring on D outweigh and of the family complications? Also very interesting point the #12's worth is at a all time low (I agree), but I don't think he can negotiate a new contract till he is within a year of his current one ending. 

 

Semin - he's lazy and sucks. That is all the legacy of Jim Rutherford. Way to much term and money. Should be traded for anything...

 

Tlusty/ Sekera - lock them up if we can. Both have been good for the Canes and both have had better careers here than anywhere.

 

Skinner/ Faulk - they are using them as building blocks for better or worse. I think Skins will end up a vegetable, but just my opinion. Skins also has a NTC so doubtful he leaves...

 

Nash - sign this guy to a extension ASAP. He's played great, tries harder than almost anyone and is a stand up guy. 

 

Lindholm - he's finding his game, part of being drafted by the canes is you get rushed to mature. I think he is doing alright.

 

Our defense is the WORST. We need decent guys on D. Harrison, Gleason and Liles were all laughed out by the Leafs. If we want to be competitive, we can't take others trash. We could have gone after Leddy or Boychuk (both way better than everyone but Faulk and Sekera) but Francis is happy with what we have, his hands are tied by Karmnos or he's lacking common sense. 

 

 

Just my two cents... 

Actually, the conversation changed b/c there was a reliable report late in the off-season that E would waive the NTC to go to Toronto. That prompted discussions which have since been acknowledged by both teams, but they went nowhere b/c the Leafs did not offer enough.

Edited by top-shelf-1

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Have you looked at some of the deals suggested in the headlines?  They are either for young guys who have ceilings of 2nd-3rd line or lower 1st rd draft picks. The team that trades the star player always gets pennies on the dollar. Just look at Buffalo and Thomas Vanek. Buffalo got 1 guaranteed year of Moulson, and a 1st and 2nd rd pick in 2015 (Most likely just outside top 10). We are expected to get way less than this because the Islanders overpaid.

Yup, I've looked at the deals, and you are correct - and that is why we haven't done them. Eric needs to prove himself healthy before serious offers come. What happened in the off-season was Toronto hoping a new GM would give them a bargain. That said, your logic re Vanek cuts both ways. Look at what happened in Calgary once they got out from under Iginla's underperforming legacy. That franchise is re-energized. Not saying it will (or won't) happen here, just that one never knows - and when you're trying to change organizational culture, you have to look at every component.

 

Now, if Eric comes back not just healthy but with a vengeance - which is what he has lacked for the past five years, IMO, that "whatever it takes" approach - his stated desire to stay here will be backed up by his performance, and his price goes even higher, assuming he'd waive the NTC. My hope has always been that Eric will fulfill the promise his contract assigned to him, and I think it is Ronnie's, Peters' and everyone else's. But up to now, his performance and his salary have been two very different, and therefore very difficult-to-reconcile things. Based on last night - and it was just one game - he has gotten the message from management that he has to earn his roster spot like everyone else, and that his is the TOP roster spot. Making that clear - i.e., separating his personal hopes and affection for the kid from the making him accountable - is what JR refused to do himself and prevented Kirk from doing, so it can only be a good thing for both Eric and the team going forward that it is finally happening.

 

Lastly on this, I'd just remind you that lots of people right here in NC thought Andrew Ladd had a second-line ceiling. Blues captain David Backes was a second-round pick, 62nd overall. Just a couple examples of why NOT to assign a ceiling to the abilities of anyone who plays at this level.

 

1 person does not make a teamBesides Staal, who has been a consistent performer for us?

Tlusty. Skinner. Faulk. Sekera. Nash. Lindy. 

 

Actually history shows that he usually is pretty good with anybody on his line. Ray Whitney, Erik Cole, Jokinen, Tlusty, Semin(until this year...I blame healthy scratch Semin)

But 9.5 million is not the price of "pretty good" in today's NHL. 9.5 million buys GREAT. In any other town in this league (except maybe Phoenix), the failure of anyone making that kind coin to go to the front of the net, to produce clutch scoring, or to put the team on his back and carry it, would have opened him to criticism long before now. Again, I am glad Eric appears to have gotten the message, because the last thing I want is for our investment in him to be a net loss. But to be clear, "pretty good" isn't good enough at his pay grade.

 

 

So? Brindamour retired at almost age 40. Hockey players can play a long time. Even if you say he is not in the same shape as Rod, he still has at least 5 good years left in his career. Its not like we have another 1st line center we can slot in there and I doubt we will get one back in a trade. Do you think Riley Nash is a 70 pt guy? I don't. Guys like Eric don't just fall in your lap every draft...we won't be able to replace his production.

I never said he wouldn't play for a long time, I said that he is at his most valuable on the trade market at the upcoming deadline. Do you think we'll ever get anything close to what we could now for Eric if we extend him five years and try to move him at 35? No. That was my only point: His value will never again be as high as it is now, because 30 is a key factor in trade value. The only scenario under which Eric's value *might* be higher than it will be at the upcoming deadline is if he just lights it up like crazy this year, we keep him, make the playoffs, and then the team tanks in the first half of next year. 

 

And yes, of course we have another first-line center, and a younger one to boot: Eric's brother, Jordan.

Calgary is in the position its in right now because Jonas Hiller is on a hot streak/good. I would be surprised if they maintain their current level of play with 2 defensemen leading them in points. Good goaltending can hide a lot of flaws, something we didn't have at the beginning of the year.

 

In terms of Eric's salary, yes he is overpaid. If you figure he is a 70 pt guy which he has been 7 out of 9 possible years (lockout shortened season doesn't count) he would be worth Rick Nash money on the open market. (7.5M-8M) So basically he's overpaid by 1.25 million. That is a lot of money, but it wouldn't bring us a great free agent or something. Hopefully now that we have Jordan here, Eric can sign for a smaller figure and we can turn his next contract into a small bargain.

 

Oh and btw I would still call Andrew Ladd a 2nd line player. He's never had more than 59 points in a season which puts him as a 2nd line player on a playoff team. He's only 1st line because its Winnipeg.

 

Also, none of those guys you listed have been consistent performers. Faulk  is Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde....he was a -9 after the Edmonton game. I saw 1 game this year where he had 2 turnovers in 5 sec. Tlusty scored 8 less pts in 2013 than in 2012 with 20 more games. Skinner has problems with concussions and has missed significant time the past 3 seasons. Sekera we've had for 1 year and he had a career year with 7 more goals than his career high....I wouldn't expect that again. Lindy is still a 19 year old kid going through growing pains. He might be good but he's not a consistent guy yet and the same goes for Nash unless you count the fact that he's scored at least 7 points a year consistent.

 

I don't consider it a surprise that once Staal comes back, we pretty shortly start winning games. Even if he doesn't score, he is drawing a lot of attention from the opposing team and giving favorable matchups to our other lines. Instead of facing the top pair of defensemen, the Nash line gets to face the 2nd pair. It makes a difference.....though I will say, Eric has never been able to establish chemistry with Skinner. I don't know why....

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Well I think we all agree on a couple things at least.....

 

  • Trade Semin for the best deal you can get
  • Lock up Tlusty/Sekera/Nash...they are all relatively young

I wonder when Semin will be given another chance.....

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youngfan, I could run down a similar list of inconsistencies affecting Eric. The point is that no one on this team has played up to their potential (except Skinner, despite his concussions, and Lindy, I would argue) and you have to look at the leadership in the room as a possible cause of that. And don't even get me started on goaltending; once JR signed Cam to that huge contract he refused to pay more than peanuts to any backup, which is why Cam broke down all those years. You can't expect John Graham to give Cam a break, unless you spell "break" l-o-s-s, which JR apparently did. Jimmy left us a lot of baggage and the further we get from his administration, the clearer the weight of that baggage becomes. The deal to Eric was similarly too much, too soon. 

 

As for Andrew Ladd, he's a perfect example of an all-round captain. There is much, much more to being a captain than scoring points - specifically, WHEN those points are tallied and the ability to lead the team. The that fact E's defenders always bring up his "point per game" status is laughable, because you can also count on one hand the number of game winners - and last year it only took one FINGER to count his PP goals for the entire year.

 

In Calgary, Jarome Iginla was just the start. New management is having an effect there too (Brian Burke, who tolerates no excuses), and I think you (and others) will be surprised. We're doing the same things they have, just in the opposite order: we've changed management and are seeing if players respond. Those that don't are toast, as it should be.

 

Again, no one wants E to give us a return on the millions we've paid him more than I do, and I think he's finally getting the message that the edges of his skates are for quick stops and starts, not carving circles. I was especially glad to hear the determination in his post-game remarks yesterday, about getting back on the ice and back to work today. But the chemistry you say he lacks with Skinner has also been lacking with at least one of his wings ever since he got the C, except for those three magical weeks two years ago when he, Tlusty and Semin seemed to find it. At some point he has to prove he can adapt to the styles of those around him and lead this team, and if not, he should be treated like anyone else: Asked to take his talents elsewhere.  

Edited by top-shelf-1

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Well I think we all agree on a couple things at least.....

 

  • Trade Semin for the best deal you can get
  • Lock up Tlusty/Sekera/Nash...they are all relatively young

I wonder when Semin will be given another chance.....

Yes! and at this point, for Semin, a bag of pucks looks pretty freakin' good!

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I gotta disagree with some of the points on this post. I don't think there's much likelihood of Semin going anywhere, mostly because he has 4 years left on his contract. If he were in his last year, I think he would fetch a few nice draft picks from a playoff team wanting to take that final step, but I don't see it here. And to trade him for nothing just to dump salary doesn't make sense, unless you have a real shot at signing another impact player with that money. 

 

Top, I have to disagree with you about Calgary being re energized after escaping from Iginla. For one I don't think he ever under performed, he has been one of the most consistent 30 goal guys in recent memory, but he had no help in Calgary at all. Also, they have been just as bad, if not worse than us ever since losing him. They are starting to improve with their young guys, but spent most of the time post trade being non competitive. If we are going to get rid of Eric under similar assumptions, we are accepting that we won't be competitive for another few years at least.

 

Both Eric and Semin catch a lot of criticism on here for not performing up to their salaries, but they are still performing and putting up points. They are both extremely talented and the team is better with them than without. The fact is that either of them at 70-80% is more talented and will make them team more competitive than Nash and Rask at 100% - even if that's hard for fans to live with. That's why having a team full of hard working no names - as some have stated they want - won't work at this level. We saw that with the injuries to our big guys. Our AHL team could work as hard as possible, but they didn't have the talent to seriously and consistently compete. You need those big skill guys, both for their production and to slot your less talented hard workers down to a situation where they can succeed.

 

I've been trying for a long time to find a link to this article from Justin Bourne of theScore - son of Islander Bob Bourne, and also played some good hockey himself - where he says that fans really have become bad with overestimating the impact of "value players"

 

http://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2014/03/06/the-new-obsession-with-value-players-and-remembering-why-talent-still-trumps/

 

He makes the point that fans have become obsessed with value and that makes them blind to actual contribution. Take Riley Nash vs Eric Staal at center. Say Eric gets 70 points while making 8.25 million, and Nash puts up 40 points at 575k. Yes it sure looks like Nash is a much better value at points per dollar, and many would point out that Staal is under performing and Nash is over achieveing. But why are we focusing on any of that relative value?!? Fact is, 70 points is more that 40, by quite a margin. 30 more points would equal more goals for this team, and more wins as an extension. 

 

If you want to compete, you need those big talent players, and fact is that in this market you will probably have to overpay for them. If Carolina and Chicago are going after a player and both offer equal contracts, the player probably picks Chicago more often. So to attract those guys here, you end up over paying a bit or adding things like no trade clauses. So I think we need to start focusing on what players bring on the ice, rather than if we think they are overpaid for that contribution.

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Right now, Riley Nash 7 points +1, Eric Staal 4 points -3.  What have you done for me lately?

 

Nash has played in twice as many games as Staal. On a PPG basis, Staal (0.8 PPG) is outperforming Nash (0.7 PPG). Additionally, 3 of Staal's 4 points have come on the PP, so using +/- is a bit arbitrary. And since some have been talking up the value of FO%, Staal has been better there too (53.5 vs. 51.6).

 

So that's what he's done lately. Blame him for the injury if you want, but when he's been in the lineup, he's produced.

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I gotta disagree with some of the points on this post. I don't think there's much likelihood of Semin going anywhere, mostly because he has 4 years left on his contract. If he were in his last year, I think he would fetch a few nice draft picks from a playoff team wanting to take that final step, but I don't see it here. And to trade him for nothing just to dump salary doesn't make sense, unless you have a real shot at signing another impact player with that money. 

 

Top, I have to disagree with you about Calgary being re energized after escaping from Iginla. For one I don't think he ever under performed, he has been one of the most consistent 30 goal guys in recent memory, but he had no help in Calgary at all. Also, they have been just as bad, if not worse than us ever since losing him. They are starting to improve with their young guys, but spent most of the time post trade being non competitive. If we are going to get rid of Eric under similar assumptions, we are accepting that we won't be competitive for another few years at least.

 

Both Eric and Semin catch a lot of criticism on here for not performing up to their salaries, but they are still performing and putting up points. They are both extremely talented and the team is better with them than without. The fact is that either of them at 70-80% is more talented and will make them team more competitive than Nash and Rask at 100% - even if that's hard for fans to live with. That's why having a team full of hard working no names - as some have stated they want - won't work at this level. We saw that with the injuries to our big guys. Our AHL team could work as hard as possible, but they didn't have the talent to seriously and consistently compete. You need those big skill guys, both for their production and to slot your less talented hard workers down to a situation where they can succeed.

 

I've been trying for a long time to find a link to this article from Justin Bourne of theScore - son of Islander Bob Bourne, and also played some good hockey himself - where he says that fans really have become bad with overestimating the impact of "value players"

 

http://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2014/03/06/the-new-obsession-with-value-players-and-remembering-why-talent-still-trumps/

 

He makes the point that fans have become obsessed with value and that makes them blind to actual contribution. Take Riley Nash vs Eric Staal at center. Say Eric gets 70 points while making 8.25 million, and Nash puts up 40 points at 575k. Yes it sure looks like Nash is a much better value at points per dollar, and many would point out that Staal is under performing and Nash is over achieveing. But why are we focusing on any of that relative value?!? Fact is, 70 points is more that 40, by quite a margin. 30 more points would equal more goals for this team, and more wins as an extension. 

 

If you want to compete, you need those big talent players, and fact is that in this market you will probably have to overpay for them. If Carolina and Chicago are going after a player and both offer equal contracts, the player probably picks Chicago more often. So to attract those guys here, you end up over paying a bit or adding things like no trade clauses. So I think we need to start focusing on what players bring on the ice, rather than if we think they are overpaid for that contribution.

You are correct, calling Iginla an underperformer is unfair. He was great, beloved in Calgary for years, and I feel very lucky to have seen him play in the Saddledome about four years ago. Since Calgary is in Canada everyone's under a microscope to a far greater extent than they are in Raleigh, which I believe is one reason Eric's underperformance has been tolerated by the fan base. The other is that this is the South, and fans are genuinely nice. Coming from Philly, I just don't understand that at all  :lol:

 

Which is really my overarching point about Eric. He has been able to essentially hide out here. One PP goal all last year? I think if Iginla had ever been that bad he might have decided it was time to find other work. Further, Iginla was a leader on and off the ice. Eric? I gotta tell you, after Roddy - well, maybe Rod spoiled us. But I don't think it's unfair to call out a captain whose team has had no PP and has missed the playoffs for three straight years, let alone five. It only took Calgary two seasons of missed postseason play to commit to a rebuild by thanking Iginla for his services and wishing him all the best, knowing his potential return was dwindling with each passing day, given his age.

 

I don't think that time has come yet for Eric, but I think the only reason is his age. He was able to escape accountability when JR was GM, and I think those days are finally over.

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