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Whaler1

2015 NHL Entry Draft

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Fair enough and well put.

 

My only concern on Hanifin is that he doesn't seem to be quite as unanimous as Jones or especially Ekblad all of the sudden and Button and others, including ISS have slid him down lately. He certainly was the concensus best guy after McEichel for a long time there and IF he is that true #1 Ryan Suter kind of dman, it would be a great long term pick for sure.

 

On Crouse, I have also read opinions by some claiming to know that Crouse is an overreach at #5, and as we hacks discuss it, I remain a bit nervous about him, BUT if we go up there and call out his name, I will also get behind it and believe that our scouts have seen enough offensive potential to pick him there. He is said to be a very good skater. And as you mention, something besides size is getting these scouting services worked up about him.

Edited by remkin

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I know much less about who to pick than the staff at the Canes office. If Strome, Marner, Crouse, Hanifin, or whoever is the pick, I'm fine with that. I see the logic in all of the above. Each player brings a specific skill set and the Canes need help everywhere.

I can also see a trade down a few slots if it brought additional assets.

Edited by super_dave_1

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This is what Tony MacDonald had to say recently on Hanifin:

 

“It’s entirely possible Hanifin could slide to No. 5,” MacDonald said. “He won’t slide like Cam Fowler did, but it’s not out of the question he could be there at No. 5.”

Fowler was tagged a potential top-three selection heading into the 2010 NHL draft. Still available after the first 11 picks, the defenseman was taken by the Anaheim Ducks at No. 12 and quickly became a fixture on the Ducks’ blue line.

“That won’t happen with Hanifin,” MacDonald said.

 

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/nhl/carolina-hurricanes/article20101011.html

 

So, take what you want to from that but it reads to me like if he is there, the Canes are picking him.


 
Edited by coastal_caniac

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Coastal and SD summed it up.

I'll let the scouts do their job, and whoever we select I will support.

What makes this draft so interesting is that (as SD said) each player that is a possibility brings a different skill set...and different question marks.

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For the record, I got a laugh out "Smiling Bob", as I do from many of your motifs. Matter of fact, I kind of wish you had a place where all of them were archived; kind of a pop culture peek at the state of Canes hockey over time. 

  :)

 

You should have been around in 08-09 or the times when JR was wheeling-dealing trying to create a perfume from dog poop.

 

Their were some classics back then.  :lol:

 

I agree, SD needs to have an archive thread of his own for this stuff.  Cracks me up.

 

Luv me some humor.  Thanks SD.

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Glad to be of service.

 

Everybody has to bring something to the table.  Since I can't offer wisdom or knowledge, I bring insanity.  Sometimes it touches a nerve, but such is life.

Edited by super_dave_1

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RF from the N&O article http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/nhl/carolina-hurricanes/article20101011.html

 

“We’re looking to improve in a lot of areas and certainly skill never hurts. You always want to add speed, especially the way the game is played today. Size would help us, but it’s not always a matter of getting bigger but being able to win battles, get in front of the net and play big. You don’t have to be 6-4 to play big.”

 

Which imo clearly points to . . . ah, I got nothing. Only that all options are likely still open. And while RF didn't mention the possibility of trading down in the article, he has several times in the past, so I wouldn't be surprised to see us go that route if the right deal came available.

 

For the record, before I put on my GM hat to weigh in on this years draft I acknowledged my lack of expertise and any actual first hand knowledge of the prospects.  I will also support whatever informed decision the Canes make. But that doesn't mean I won't play GM in the interim (the key word here is "play"). 

Edited by LakeLivin

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On trading down:

 

After McDavid and Eichel, here are seven players of which one is guaranteed to be available as low as the #9 pick.

Strome

Hanifin

Marner

Crouse

Provorov

Rantanen

Werenski

 

That's why it wouldn't shock me to see us move down a couple of spots if the right deal came available.

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From Lake's post:

 

“We’re looking to improve in a lot of areas and certainly skill never hurts. You always want to add speed, especially the way the game is played today. Size would help us, but it’s not always a matter of getting bigger but being able to win battles, get in front of the net and play big. You don’t have to be 6-4 to play big.”

 

This is why I think that the focus on size is a fair issue, but a bit amplified here. I've never heard a GM say, "What we really need is to get smaller, we're just too big." And I do agree, this is a softish team. And I am not saying that we should not add size and especially grit, but that every time Francis says something about this he first mentions skill and speed, then says something like "all else equal of course you want to get bigger.". But it that quote I think he is saying what a lot here really want, a physical edge. Going to the net, winning battles, basically the anti Semin.

 

This is why we just have to move Semin somehow. Even if his skill game comes back some, he is not helping those other things. This is a big part of why the Toronto rumor is not just for morons. Yes, it is Eklund, so I get that part, but the deal is not crazy. It was picked up form the Toronto side here:

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2455955-report-leafs-talking-kessel-blockbuster-with-car

 

Basically they say good riddence to Kadri, but really don't want to lose Kessel, let alone pick up Semin.

 

 

The size thing might well be proven one way or the other if we don't trade the pick before the draft, but find ourselves at #5 with Strome and Hanifin gone. Do we pick the uber high skill guy left? Or are we dissuaded by his lack of size?

 

Marner is the embodiment of the size issue. He is an aboslute bonefide top pick outside of his stature. His size is the only reason not to pick him. So, if we trade down, or reach for a guy or pick Crouse with Marner available, then clearly size was a key issue. If we pick Marner, then speed and skill are bigger issues.

 

Here is a sumation of the Marner question for us.

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2452829-pros-and-cons-of-mitchell-marner-as-possible-carolina-hurricanes-draft-pick

 

I am not a scout or an expert (I think as a moron, I should by definitiion be exempt from adding that disclaimer every time I opine), and I'll get with the program once Francis makes his moves. The article suggests that Marner will need to go back to Juniors at least one more year and try to add bulk, so probably not NHL ready. I still don't pass on all that skill mixed with effort and determination. But again, for the record, I am not an expert.

Edited by remkin

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I think we should spend more time around here justifying our opinions.  That is sorely lacking around here.

:sarcasm:

 

I say that somewhere, whether it be in the draft or in free agency, that RF needs to address the issue of the team being smallish and soft.  Bigger guys that hit are going to affect play more than smaller guys that hit.  It's simply physics and it's part of the game.  Once the issue of "size" is brought up, then we get another "why Marner should be picked" manifesto. 

 

I get that people have different opinions. 

 

Just for sport, let's look at previous Canes 1st rounders starting with EStaal (current team).  With the exception of Paradis, the over 6 foot guys are a solid bunch. The jury is out on the sub 5 footers except for Boychuk (I think we can all agree on him).  Skinner had a great start, but has not taken any forwards steps.  Murphy still has work to do.

 

EStaal 6'4"

ALadd 6'3"

JJohnson 6'1"

BSutter 6'3"

ZBoychuck 5'9"

PParadis 6'2"

JSkinner 5'11"

RMurphy 5'9"

ELindholm 6'1"

HFleury 6'3"

 

Just food for thought.  Size isn't the end all, be all of decision making.  But it has to factor in to the decision making.  That has been the point I have tried to make.  It does matter.  Marner could very well be the pick, and that's great, but don't think that size does not factor into the decision process. 

 

edit:

By the way, Sergey Tolchinsky (projected 2nd rounder) went undrafted at 5'9".  If he was 3 inches taller, do you think that would have been the case?

Edited by super_dave_1

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I think we should spend more time around here justifying our opinions.  That is sorely lacking around here.

 

Once the issue of "size" is brought up, then we get another "why Marner should be picked" manifesto.

SD, isn't the above quote a bit contradictory?

You say people aren't justifying their opinion, then you talk about a manifesto on why we should draft Marner.

I think it's pretty obvious why someone might want us to draft Marner, he's a skilled point producer that is universally ranked highly.

I've also pointed out why we should draft a guy like Crouse, and others have posted similar reasons why.

Myself and Coastal talked about drafting Hanifin, because you build from the back out. Others have agreed.

The strengths, weaknesses, and concerns of each player has been discussed.

I don't see people throwing out names without ideas/support for their opinions.

I may be misunderstanding your post. If so I apologize.

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SD, isn't the above quote a bit contradictory?

You say people aren't justifying their opinion, then you talk about a manifesto on why we should draft Marner.

 

 

Sarcasm.  I guess I need to spell it out when I use it.  I thought it was understood, but I fixed it.

 

Maybe size doesn't matter at all.  Of course if that was the case, the world would be full of 150 lb offensive linemen and 300 lb horse jockeys.

 

:sarcasm:  <just in case it's needed

Edited by super_dave_1

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Now it makes sense.

I don't think anybody is disagreeing with you that size doesn't matter, but then maybe you are being sarcastic again.

Either way, this team has a "soft" problem. Size is a factor of course, as hard as Gerbe tries he's not going to be as effective as a bigger body doing the same thing. Like you said, it's physics.

As a note up front we have E. Staal, J. Staal, Semin, Rask, Malone, and Nestrasil at 6'2 and above. Lindholm, McLement, and Nash are 6'1.

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One of the other problems is that we all tend to take the little pokes in each other's posts as being pointed at us only. Of course now that there are only a few die hards on here it is even easier to do that. For instance I am assuming the the Marner manifesto among others, is aimed at me. I am fully prone to manifestos, but don't really think that's what my last post did. I was trying to point out that how Francis acts in that scenario will be telling of his opinion on the size vs speed vs skill issue. My points on size is not just aimed at SD. This has been a theme for a long time. And it is, in my humble opinion completely valid too. (I suspect that even those of us who favor speed and skill over size as a rule, would like to see our team bigger and tougher). But on our first overall pick it could be a delemma where Francis has to pick between size and tough (Crouse) and speed and skill (Marner), or a trade down, which would still in this case be a vote for size by passing on Marner or even Hanifin possibly.

 

In general, no matter what happens with that #5 pick, we should move to add size and grit elsewhere. I think we can all agree on that. And size does matter as a general rule too. Most of the top 25 scores are big guys. If we were in a position to pick McEichel or Strome, or even Hanifin, this debate is far less acute. It is the fact that we may well have to decide on Marner that makes this an issue.

Edited by remkin

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Now it makes sense.

I don't think anybody is disagreeing with you that size doesn't matter, but then maybe you are being sarcastic again.

 

 

I put a "sarcasm alert" there. 

 

Are you being sarcastic about my sarcasm?

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Marner isn't that small at 5'11". Most teams have one or two forwards under 6'. We just happen to have four (Gerbe might count twice) forwards under 6'. The question with Marner is at only 18 will he be able to fill that frame out another 25 or 30 pounds by the time he is NHL ready.  If his skill is that good he might be worth the risk considering by the time he reaches Carolina we may have gotten bigger as a team.

 

Defense is where I would like to see us add size.

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I put a "sarcasm alert" there. 

 

Are you being sarcastic about my sarcasm?

Maybe. :)

OBXer, I was going to say the same thing. Our defense is kind of small, and Hainsey plays small.

If you look at my above post, you can see our size up front isn't bad, we just have some soft players.

Gerbe, Skinner, and Dwyer are the only small guys that see regular ice time and Dwyer might be gone. Terry is there too but his ice time is inconsistent and who knows how he fits into our plans.

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Maybe. :)

OBXer, I was going to say the same thing. Our defense is kind of small, and Hainsey plays small.

If you look at my above post, you can see our size up front isn't bad, we just have some soft players.

Gerbe, Skinner, and Dwyer are the only small guys that see regular ice time and Dwyer might be gone. Terry is there too but his ice time is inconsistent and who knows how he fits into our plans.

 

and Skinner isn't that small at 5"11 and 200 pounds. But he doesn't play a power game very often so he appears smaller. I'm not being critical of his game because every team needs a scorer but I think he could use his size better. Overall I would like to see us get bigger in the draft but Marner might be an exception. It appears he plays big.

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mantra for training camp drilled into them... go to knett, go to knett...   Semin is the speaker.. oh wait... :huh:

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I've been poking around looking for some more scouting reports for Provorov when I came across this.  I think as an artifact of the big two, plus Strome and Marner getting so much attention, Crouse gets kind of lost in the mix.  This kind of report is why I keep saying the guy is a freak and helps me understand why he gets such a high spot in the CSS and ISS rankings.  We need a lot of what he brings.

 

http://www.thedraftanalyst.com/prospects/lawson-crouse/

 

Okay. Say to yourself  “I’ve never heard of Lawson Crouse before.” There. Now that we’ve gotten that out of the way, let’s talk about the 2015 Entry Draft’s best power forward. This talented specimen is deserving of his reputation as a top draft eligible for a variety of reasons. He has as much of a chance to develop into a star as any of his peers, and will prove to be a fantastic asset for any team who gives him the chance to shine. Simply put, Crouse is a low-maintenance, one-man demolition crew. He possesses an exception blend of power and determination, and everything good that happens to him on the ice is a consenquence of it. At 6’6, 220 pounds, Crouse has the potential to become a dominating power forward at the NHL level because he has the shot and net presence opposing coaches can only talk about neutralizing. He was given an opportunity to lead an understrength Kingston team and conducted himself with aplomb, playing in all types of on-ice situations and leading by example. Crouse does not have many flaws. He’s not a speed demon, but he’s a good skater with great balance who uses his long strides to cover ground in a hurry. He has a reputation as a fearless hitter and tireless worker; he’s at his best when he’s causing havoc along the boards and creating turnovers with his relentless forechecking, then positioning himself for a quality chance. He has very good stamina for a guy his size; he doesn’t tire out in the middle of a cycle in either zone. He sacrifices his body to make the smart play — a lost art in today’s game. Furthermore, he’s the last guy to look towards the bench for a change when an opposing attack isn’t neutralized. He is a good passer for a big man, but don’t expect him to get fancy or fool around with the puck. You notice him when he’s not scoring, and in a good way.

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Okay. Say to yourself  “I’ve never heard of Lawson Crouse before.” There. Now that we’ve gotten that out of the way, let’s talk about the 2015 Entry Draft’s best power forward. This talented specimen is deserving of his reputation as a top draft eligible for a variety of reasons. He has as much of a chance to develop into a star as any of his peers, and will prove to be a fantastic asset for any team who gives him the chance to shine. Simply put, Crouse is a low-maintenance, one-man demolition crew. He possesses an exception blend of power and determination, and everything good that happens to him on the ice is a consenquence of it. At 6’6, 220 pounds, Crouse has the potential to become a dominating power forward at the NHL level because he has the shot and net presence opposing coaches can only talk about neutralizing. He was given an opportunity to lead an understrength Kingston team and conducted himself with aplomb, playing in all types of on-ice situations and leading by example. Crouse does not have many flaws. He’s not a speed demon, but he’s a good skater with great balance who uses his long strides to cover ground in a hurry. He has a reputation as a fearless hitter and tireless worker; he’s at his best when he’s causing havoc along the boards and creating turnovers with his relentless forechecking, then positioning himself for a quality chance. He has very good stamina for a guy his size; he doesn’t tire out in the middle of a cycle in either zone. He sacrifices his body to make the smart play — a lost art in today’s game. Furthermore, he’s the last guy to look towards the bench for a change when an opposing attack isn’t neutralized. He is a good passer for a big man, but don’t expect him to get fancy or fool around with the puck. You notice him when he’s not scoring, and in a good way.

 

This guy seems to have "Peters" written all over him.  Monsters like this don't grow on trees, and certainly aren't in the Canes locker room.  Choosing between a power player like this and a highly skilled, but smaller player (by 5" and 50 lbs) is tough.

 

 

 

disclaimer: No sarcasm included in this post.

Edited by super_dave_1

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No more small guys!!   Majority do not do well in NHL.  Players target them and crush them all game/season long.  They get hurt a lot and can't quite get there game going that worked else where.  I don't beleive Marner will do to well at the NHL level.  165lbs is tiny and I'm sick of talking about waiting for guys to put on some muscle and weight, that takes a long time and we do not have time.  nobody under 190lbs please.

 

Crouse is what we need.  Size,power, and talent that can develop.   No more small Canes, and I believe RF agrees going by his statements in the recent past.

Edited by danimal-ch1

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Although I have been against how often prospects have been rushed, I think there is some merit to drafting a guy like Crouse who would probably start the year in Raleigh.  Crouse has the size and game to play with NHLers.  What I've seen on Marner is that he'll probably need another year in juniors to bulk up some (hopefully).  After missing the playoffs for 6 straight years, I can see that playing in to the decision.

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Like I said, as with Jordan Staal the contributions of a guy like Crouse are hard to measure as they go beyond mere statistics. He certainly brings much of what this team needs.

SD, I don't think that our past futility in trying to make the playoffs should factor into the decision at all. Any player we draft is likely a few years away from making a significant impact. I agree that Crouse would be the most probable in terms of being ready next year, but honestly I don't see this team going anywhere for another two to three seasons. Then again, that's just my opinion.

Hopefully we are drafting a player that will be a significant contributor for the next 12+ years, so I don't think that whether or not a player is NHL ready next year should matter. I would rather any player we draft develop properly. The only way I would want to see a guy jump right into the NHL is if it is a top-pick, hyped-up superstar that will sell tickets (see: McDavid).

Btw, I appreciate the "sarcasm disclaimer" :D.

.

Edited by Kyrule

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