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remkin

POLL: VOTE: Who Do You Trade?

Who Do You Trade?  

35 members have voted

  1. 1. You are the GM. The hockey gods have determined that you can only make one trade of a player making >$2 million. They have also determined the return, and NTC is waived: Who do you trade?

    • Eric Staal: Return: Mid first round draft pick, top 6 forward, defensive prospect
      2
    • Cam Ward: Mid first round draft pick
      9
    • Andrej Sekera: mid-late first round pick (UFA next year)
      7
    • Juri Tlusty: mid-late second round pick
      8
    • Jeff Skinner: #2 dman OR similar young forward with upside plus or minus picks if player lower quality
      8
    • Anton Khudoben: Mid first round draft pick
      0
    • Jordan Staal: mid-high first round pick, lower end top 6 forward
      0
    • None. (Assumes Sekera and Tlusty re-sign). I like our group
      1


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Not to keep defening the poll, btw if you ever do a poll, and anyone can do one, get ready to have it's flaws commented on, but anyhoo...

 

The poll asks what you would do. Who would you trade? And one option is "we like our group". Which would apply to trade no one.

 

Really the only option not on there was trade Semin because it would be so hard to do and we don't need a poll to determine what people would do if he could be traded.

 

I don't know that I would call the moves made to this point blowing it up though.

No, it asks what I would do based on your concept of what constitutes appropriate returns.

 

As others have pointed out, Skinner will not return a top-two Dman or a similar forward given his head issues. If I'm the trading partner, what's my incentive to give up those sorts of players for a guy whose next injury could be career-ending? The best case for Skinner is to stay here, grow with the rest of the yutes (he played with Murphy in Kitchener and roomed with Murph and Lindy last year), and learn to stand up for himself.

 

Conversely, your return for Cam is too low. Yes, any trading partner would take on a lot of salary, but at the deadline you have to assume a team looking for a keeper is not looking for a backup and is replacing a high-dollar number one who is injured. (For example, if Columbus thought it still had a shot, they'd take him to replace Bobs). Any team would be crazy to sign him a back-up, even if we retain half his salary.

 

And not to belabor the point, but asking now about Eric without somehow controlling for his habit of not showing up until December or later every year discounts that pattern, and is the main reason I objected to the poll in the first place. Ron has emphasized in all recent interviews that this is the team we thought we'd have in place Oct. 1., and his comments infer that any moves at the deadline are likely to involve any unsigned UFAs. He's said since last summer that they want to give this group a full season of evaluation, and I think the injuries can only reinforce that; you can't evaluate what you have until they're playing together. If you could, this would be golf or tennis, not hockey.

Edited by top-shelf-1

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I picked Sekera, but if I could pick more than one, I'd add Skinner and Ward to the mix.

 

As much as I like Andrej and his defensive grit since he arrived here, I think that his asking price in a trade is something we should jump at...and then try to re-sign him in the off-season if that works out.

 

With Khudobin finally getting the W's (and finally getting some help in front), Cam is now expendable again...and he has a nice string this season to prove that he's still a great commodity.  He should fetch a 2nd...maybe a low-end 1st.

 

I like Skinner...but he is one more concussion away from being permanently sidelined, and I just haven't seen the numbers I was expecting the past few seasons since his repeated concussions.  I say trade him now while we still can.

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No, it asks what I would do based on your concept of what constitutes appropriate returns.

 

As others have pointed out, Skinner will not return a top-two Dman or a similar forward given his head issues. If I'm the trading partner, what's my incentive to give up those sorts of players for a guy whose next injury could be career-ending? The best case for Skinner is to stay here, grow with the rest of the yutes (he played with Murphy in Kitchener and roomed with Murph and Lindy last year), and learn to stand up for himself.

 

Conversely, your return for Cam is too low. Yes, any trading partner would take on a lot of salary, but at the deadline you have to assume a team looking for a keeper is not looking for a backup and is replacing a high-dollar number one who is injured. (For example, if Columbus thought it still had a shot, they'd take him to replace Bobs). Any team would be crazy to sign him a back-up, even if we retain half his salary.

 

And not to belabor the point, but asking now about Eric without somehow controlling for his habit of not showing up until December or later every year discounts that pattern, and is the main reason I objected to the poll in the first place. Ron has emphasized in all recent interviews that this is the team we thought we'd have in place Oct. 1., and his comments infer that any moves at the deadline are likely to involve any unsigned UFAs. He's said since last summer that they want to give this group a full season of evaluation, and I think the injuries can only reinforce that; you can't evaluate what you have until they're playing together. If you could, this would be golf or tennis, not hockey.

Well you are correct that I did set the returns. I guess I could have just said, "if the player gets "fair" return who would you trade?" But a similar poll to that one was put up last year and the vaugness also earned critism. To gauge a trade you have to know the return. So the question is "if" you get this return would you trade this guy? Polls have a place because they can tap into the collective opinion of the group, even those who don't tend to post. But I can tell you after having made many of them that the first thing people love to do is attack the poll. We are not making any decisions here. This is not the Constitution. I should put "within the many limitations of this poll"..... accept the limitations of the poll and vote, is what I would say..

 

On your specific points of trade value, you are offering your opion as fact also. You may be right. But it is worth noting that on Cam you say my return is too low of a mid to high first round draft pick. Others have chided me that my return is way too high. On Skinner, well he's not playing well now, so his return is too low. I think if Skinner was on a characteristic scoring run right now, the return would be correct. How many times have people said, "You want to trade Skinner? He's still a kid. Imagine how good he'll be when he peaks," So the return is set high. If you want to move Skiner, lets assume you get something back. If not, clearly you don't move him.

 

I get that you think we need to basically not trade anyone now to see what they can do. I will say that probably I'm guessing that for you I should have added: trade no one now, reevaluate at the deadline.

 

The idea of the poll was to make the return a bit high so that the return was not an inhibiting factor. No one knows what the market will bear until an offer has been made. The E. return is based on a rumor that that exact offer was on the table from Toronto. Anyway, I mentioned in the intro and still maintain that your perception of what is fair return is fair discussion.

 

 

But here's my bottom line. Lots of people love to throw around comments, especially in responses, that create the sense that clearly we need to do a general sort of thing: blow it up, get rid of those big contracts, stop the JR way of business, draft better, establish a winning culture, etc. etc. etc. OK then. So I start thinking, "Hey, these guys seem to know what to do." But then when I put out a poll, to see what they would do....instead of answering, attack the poll.

 

What is your first actual move with an actual player? Let's see it. Let's hear it. That was the idea.

 

OK I will agree on one thing. The discussion generated about actual trades and players is more instructive than the vote to this point, with the exception of the surprisingly litte stomach for trading E. So keep that up, and I'll try to make a better poll next time.

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Here's why I have a hard time with the poll (and this isn't an attack on the poll).  You want us to suspend the reality of what the actual terms of the trade would really be vs what you put up there.  What is the salary retained?  Would Ward and Khudobin both bring back the exact same return with a mid 1st rounder?  Do NTCs suddenly dissappear?  I know you said you took care of all of that and just wanted answers, but I can't be "internet GM" like that.

 

I did pick the Skinner trade and said why.  But I'll give my opinions on all the options.

 

EStaal for a mid 1st, top 6 forward, and D prospect.  No team in the league gives that return without the Canes eating a big part of that contract.  I know people want E gone because of his slow starts, but has this news not traveled outside of Canes circles?  There is also that pesky NTC that he has and he's finally playing with his brother and that's the whole deal they put together when he got JR to make the trade.

 

Cam Ward for a mid 1st.  Again, this isn't happening without eating half of his contract.  Eat half and pay another backup goalie, and all of a sudden you are back to square 1.  The mid 1st sounds good, but I don't know who is offering that now.

 

Sekera for a mid 1st.  Yes, but only as a last resort if a reasonable deal is not to be had.  I wouldn't overpay (max $5m x 5 years) and I would move him if a deal can't be had.  Getting a mid 1st who may be at best, Andre Sekera 5 years down the line doesn't make the team better.

 

Tlusty for a mid 2nd.  Yes, but only as a last resort if a reasonable deal is not to be had.  I wouldn't overpay (max $2.5m x 2 years) and I would move him if a deal can't be had.  Getting a mid 2nd who may be at best, Juri Tlusty 5 years down the line doesn't make the team better.

 

Jeff Skinner for #2D or young forward.  This was my pick for a couple of reasons.  It's realistic.  Skinner may not be (outside looking in) singing with the rest of the choir under Peters. 

 

Khudobin for a mid 1st.  Somebody is going to have to be in bad shape goalie-wise to give up a 1st.  Also, replacing him with a cheaper option won't save a ton of money.  Gotta have a backup goalie.  If I could get the mid 1st, I'd say yes, but I think it's not happening.

 

JStaal for a mid 1st and 5/6 forward.  Only happens as a BOGO with his brother.  No team in the league has a spare $15M for next year.

 

None.  Can't play internet GM and select this.

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SDave,

 

Your response is excellent overall. Very detailed and specific point by point, and well thought out, and in the end you made a decision and voted. I appreciate that.

 

I would just say that we are playing internet GM. That's what we do. As I've put elsewhere, if I'm actually creating real trades that actually happen, A. no one has told me and B. I need to get paid.

 

The only other thing is this: all members can make polls. They are fun. But once you've made one, you will feel some of my angst.

 

Still, good discussion so I'll take it! (The discussion I mean. I'll take the discussion. Not the angst. I meant the discussion).

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Voted.  Cam Ward. Why? His absence has the least impact on the current team (with a healthy Khudobin).

 

I was tempted on Eric.  So many chances, late start to season, only better when linemates are better, etc.

 

Passed on 2 UFA deals since they're contingent on signing or not.  More like not enough info influenced my vote.

 

I'm sold on Khudobin (coming from a Ward fan).

 

Wouldn't trade Skinner.  Youth and low current value.  Rare snip skills are hard to find.

 

No way I'd move Khudobin or Jordan.  The latter is perfect for the system Peters wants.

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I voted Tlusty. Assuming I could only make one move Tlusty is the easiest to replace either through free agency or promotion. McGinn is in the wings, Boychuk is still an option, Nesty is sitting etc.

 

I'm not saying we should trade Tlusty only that if given the choice of one move this is the one I would make.

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Hey we got a vote for None. Funny what some winning will do.

 

Other than that, the story of the poll at this point seems to be ABS. Anyone but a Staal. (I know we had one comment on trading E., but no votes).

 

So the board seems pretty content with moving into next year with the Staals in tact (again, this is why the assumption of the waiving of the NTC, to see what people might do if the move were there). Outside of that it is a pretty even split.

 

Since I'll keep this up unit the deadline, I'd like to see if opions shift, so I'll document the current results:

 

E. Staal: 0

J. Staal: 0

C Ward: 6 (23%)

Sekera: 5 (19%)

Tlusty: 8 (30%)

Skinner: 6 (23%)

None: 1 (4%)

 

 

Technically Tlusty is winning, but not statistically significant. I still maintain that outside of actually voting "none" that Tlsuty is the closest option to we have affection for our collection. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Edited by remkin

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Lets expand this action ...

 

I voted to trade Cam if at all possible, but doubtful of any return and RF would have to pay a significant portion of the salary due forward.  BUT it frees up a rebuild spot.  Personally, I don't want to buy a game ticket and get stuck watching Cam in net for the Canes ever again.

 

If at all possible trade or waive or buy out Semin.   What a waste of $7 mil a year.   Pressure him, assign him to Charlotte, maybe he refuses to go and we're done with his annual $7 mil.    Frees up a rebuild spot.

 

Trade Skinner before his NTC kicks in.   Might get a decent return;  might not.   Doesn't matter.

 

Earlier this season I would have had E. Staal up high on the trade wish list.   Now, I'm less anxious, and I've heard the rumors that Staal won't waive his NTC.   But I'd listen to all possible options.

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Just sat thru another heart breaking loss, and once again have experienced my conviction that Skinners should be the trade we make. Stupid penalties, uninspired play, absolutely cannot battle for pucks and inconsistent play!!

 

Move him and get someone more dependable.

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Just sat thru another heart breaking loss, and once again have experienced my conviction that Skinners should be the trade we make. Stupid penalties, uninspired play, absolutely cannot battle for pucks and inconsistent play!!

 

Move him and get someone more dependable.

I agree on your assesment of Skinner, but you forgot to add one hit away from possibly ending his career. Based on all those qualities, I bet there is a long list of teams wanting a guy like that! I can't imagine getting a lot for him, at this point.

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Just sat thru another heart breaking loss, and once again have experienced my conviction that Skinners should be the trade we make. Stupid penalties, uninspired play, absolutely cannot battle for pucks and inconsistent play!!

 

Move him and get someone more dependable.

 

Based on that assessment how do you expect to get anything in return...much less someone dependable?

Edited by richardfoc

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Don't take this personally richardfoc, but this is really not MY problem, is it? I'm just reflecting on what I see!! You may want to debate this, but I'm not. Skinner may be an absolute DYNAMO in some other coaches'system, but he's not doing so here, and hasn't for a long time.

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Don't take this personally richardfoc, but this is really not MY problem, is it? I'm just reflecting on what I see!! You may want to debate this, but I'm not. Skinner may be an absolute DYNAMO in some other coaches'system, but he's not doing so here, and hasn't for a long time.

 

Gosh, sorry I asked. Won't make that mistake again.

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The thing is return is key. It is hard to buy low and sell high because, well if a guy is producing, he becomes a favorite and why the heck would you trade him (ironically Skinner has been there several times and at least a couple times after being down), and if a guy is seriously struggling we all want that guy traded, but no one would give us anything for that guy.

 

For the better part of at least a year E was the guy everybody said or implied had to go. Now we have one vote for him.

 

As hard as it is to buy low sell high is why I voted for Cam. Outside of his contract, he value has to be as high as it's been in 2-3 years. Sell high.

 

It is just so hard to have any kind of reasonable opinion unless you know the offered return. (That's why I tried to provide the return in the poll).

 

On Skinner, the guy retreats back after each concussion. It's mentinoned on the other thread where Skinner is also being discussed, that the league has figured Skinner out. But we've heard that before. That was the theory after his rookie year, but he still came out and put up points, so I'm not sure that's it. My theory is that it is recovering from the concussions that sets his game back. He has had serious dropoffs after each concussion.

 

Skinner also gets moved around on diffenent lines. The idea seems to be to get him away from the other team's top d pairings, but it is also harder for him. For a while we had Skins and Finns, w/ Skinner and Jussi and Ruutu, which worked for a while.

 

Anyway, I wonder what the offers are for Skinner. I have never heard a credible offer being on the table to get any gauge of what he might return. If he were puttting up 35 goals, I have to think offers would be rich. But this is not a defensive player, so if he ain't scoring, his value drops.

 

If offers are thin, then we must keep him.

 

What kind of offers do people think we might get?

 

Evander Kane is a problem child for off ice issues in Winnepeg, but a big talent. I don't know. I really don't know what the offers might be.

Edited by remkin

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Glad to see Skins and Nash riding the pine in Phoenix and maybe longer. Both have looked unfocused and need to experience the consequences.

 

One of two things need to happen for Skinner to stick on this team or any other: His teammates need to retaliate on his behalf (I found it interesting that E felt the need to stick up for his 6-4, 210 bro when he was blindsided in TOR but has never gone to bat for Skinner - a 5-10 featherweight - in four-plus years as "Captain"); or Skinner needs to take boxing lessons and do it for himself.

 

Jeff, this is hockey. Hit or be hit.

Edited by top-shelf-1

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Don't take this personally richardfoc, but this is really not MY problem, is it? I'm just reflecting on what I see!! You may want to debate this, but I'm not. Skinner may be an absolute DYNAMO in some other coaches'system, but he's not doing so here, and hasn't for a long time.

Dude, yipes. Isn't it fair to ask, when you propose a trade, what you think you'll get back? Is 4.5 million really a fair price for a bag of pucks?

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Thanks remkin for stepping in and somewhat clarifying my position. Now to top-shelf and richardfoc I wasn't trying to be belligerent, but my post was not intended to put a "value" on Skinner's trade, but merely an observation of continued frustration I'm experiencing with his play, vs what I'd hoped from his rookie year. It is readily apparent that the sentiment throughout this and other Canes' related boards, is that basic structure of this team needs to and appears to be headed toward a significant, if not "major" overhaul.

That being the case, I've tried, and believe me it's difficult for me as a sentimentalist, to move forward from favorite players of mine, to consider how this overhaul can be accomplished. To do so will obviously involve a player of some status. There are obviously only a few of those that would be in the mix to attain anything of significance. Skinner's name is thus at the forefront. One could offer up the Staals or Cam Ward, but these are the only candidates that significantly change our team. Granted, Sekera, Tlusty or I suppose Faulk could result in a somewhat less dramatic team composition, so thus we are left with realistically only 4 names.

Having said all this, and perhaps I am not understanding the basic concept of rem's discussion, but it was not my understanding that when a proposed trade was suggested, I then had to justify how a trade could be accomplished with a "tarnished" player. Ergo "how do you expect to get anything in return" really did not even enter my suggestion. Further, now that I think of it, could it not be that the desired "positive" of a trade could be attained thru an apparent monetarily "negative" trade situation. To amplify this thought, what if the trade results in better chemistry, or a player better equipped to function in THIS COACH'S system. The result then could be a loss of money, but an improved team.

Now, if the concept is to wait so that we "don't sell low", than the question in my mind, how long does this possibly "negative" influence allowed to continue? Does RF believe that the current struggles that Skinner apparently is experiencing are all concussion related, or, like Semin, is it something else?

So there you have it. I vowed I wouldn't get into a discussion over this, but I did. Thanks for reading.

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I don't want to trade Sekera and think the D will suffer if we do, but if its apparent that we're not going to be able to resign him at a price we can afford, I think he is our biggest return on investment in the trade market.

 

Similar circumstance with Tlusty. He had a down year last season, leading to the 1 year deal. He's looked better this year, but that means other teams will pay more than we can afford probably. Better to get a decent asset (not just a draft pick) if he won't stay.

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If we are moving Eric to the wing full-time, we need to actively be looking for a 2nd/3rd line center that can provide consistent offense.  I love both Nash and Rask, particularly Rask, but long term there's no room for the both of them.  Rask I think will eventually become a solid 2nd/3rd line center, but not right now.  I say we can package Nash with one of our UFA's to get a prospect to that can eventually be slotted there.  Our prospect pool for centers is not that good.

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New Update:

 

Not much change: but we do have one vote for E now.

 

Other than that we have esssentially a dead heat 4 way tie for:

 

Ward (8)

Sekera (7)

Tlusty (8)

Skinner (7)

 

then E (1), Like our group (1), and J (0)

 

Of course, I can't help myself but to try to interpret the poll. What I get is this:

 

As a collective we want change badly, but we have decided we don't want a Staal moved. After that, we don't really know what the best move would be.

 

I would say that's what I pick up from the collective of posts on the entire boards too. Very little interest right now in kicking the Staals, desire for some kind of change, but no clear direction what form that change should or will take.

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Skinner's value is probably at a career low. Why trade him now? I think about Ladd for Ruutu - 2 high draft picks who seemed to need a change of scenery. For the first couple of years, it seemed to be a trade that worked out both ways. But in the long run, we gave Ruutu away for a bag of pucks, and look at what Ladd is doing now. Sometimes the best trades are the ones you do not make.

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I finally broke down and voted, Rem. 

 

Eric Staal. 

 

I'm done with his uninspired a$s.

 

Straight up for Tyler Myers, then pay Sekera what he wants, and build this team with draft picks, current talent, and internal competition. The way we should have been all along.

Edited by top-shelf-1

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