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It's that time of year...Season Ticket Renewal email

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SuperDave - best comment yet. Ticket rep told me today that "business side" of franchise had been neglected for 5-10 years and these increases are necessary to make team competitive. I replied, "but in what city." crowds of 6-8 thousand seem like they will not assure the franchise staying in Raleigh. Rep said there was no consideration at all being given to relocation. Canes are here for the long term. OK.

If it's true that the business side has been ignored, then they have to expect some blow back when they try to fix it all at one time. Why does the fan once again have to pay for the organization not handling business as they should? I'm still not buying that though for the reason you stated. How is ensuring less fans buy tickets going to make the team competitive? How about putting a competitive team out there first? On moving, what does anybody expect them to say? PK is getting older and will sell sooner rather than later. If Las Vegas has a bunch of deposits for season tickets and makes a good arena offer, all the "Canes are here for the long term"s go out the window.

And Swanson, you can be my friend even if we don't agree on how they implemented this. I get they want more full STH's, but that just isn't a fit for everybody. Money for some. Time for some. Distance traveled for some. Driving those fans away with huge increases hidden in smaller ticket packages is going to be a tough sell. They need to improve the product and increase ticket sales before they want to start acting like some of the other clubs in the league.

Edited by super_dave_1

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I think the biggest mistake the Canes have made over the years is treating all the STH’s the same as far as benefits. I’ve bought single tickets (using the 20 different discounts the Canes offer each year), 12 game, 26 game and full season tickets over the last 7 years. The benefits should be based on the commitment (money spent) from the purchaser. I don’t see how someone spending $645 on a full season in the upper deck should get the same benefits as someone spending $2064 in the lower level. It’s a completely different level of commitment financially. I think the Canes have started that approach and went with ticket # commitment instead of overall $ amount.

 

I've been a STHer of various flavors going on 10 years.  In that time, they've always treated partial season holders differently.  This year, however, they've made the separation even greater, sticking them down in the boiler room of the Titanic.

 

As for upper deck full STHers in the "Fan Zone", this just baffles me.  I totally agree with you.  They either have to create a separate class for fan zoners or raise their price.  It is a great deal.  We were there, but found that we used zero of the full STHer perks.  The best perk was simply the price per game.  I'll be surprised if FZ tix are not overhauled next year.  (Assuming this hard line continues.)

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It took 7 calls to get to a live person today...and not a sales rep. Was told that the reps were all busy and I could leave message. I said, flooded with complaints over the renewal package and they replied, oh no, with happy STH getting on their renewals ASAP. Haven't stopped

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It took 7 calls to get to a live person today...and not a sales rep. Was told that the reps were all busy and I could leave message. I said, flooded with complaints over the renewal package and they replied, oh no, with happy STH getting on their renewals ASAP. Haven't stopped over that yet.

 

I'm going to let them call me.  Not pressing renew until they call me.  They are going to have to work for it.

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I'm going to let them call me.  Not pressing renew until they call me.  They are going to have to work for it.

 

I taking the exact same approach.  I'm pretty pissed right now and the last thing I want to do is say something inappropriate to my ticket rep.  He's been a great asset over the years and none of this is his doing.

 

Did I mention I was pissed?

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Took a quick look (as best I could) at average team ticket prices for NHL teams and I'm guessing that Canes price increases are not driven by the CBA revenue clause.

 

This is the best site I could find listing average season ticket prices for NHL teams.  There are other sites that list after market (e.g., Stub Hub) average ticket prices, but that's not what the NHL counts.

 

https://www.teammarketing.com/public/uploadedPDFs/nhl%20fci%2015.pdf

 

It's dated Oct. 2014 but lists Canes parking at $10, so right there it's questionable. And it states that "Premium seating (tickets that come with at least one added amenity) are not included in the ticket average."  Whatever that means, but it doesn't add to my comfort level as to accuracy.

 

But even if it's in the same zip code, it indicates that Canes have got to be well within 75% of the league average threshold without a price increase.  Canes listed at $61.  League avg listed at $62, 75% of 62 = $46.5.  Sabres listed at $50, Dallas at $37, TB at $45.  Assuming those other teams are within the threshold, doesn't sound at all close for Canes to me.   

Thanks for the compliment earlier :blush: , and for putting up a working (and more recent) link.

 

Unfortunately, there is no standard way to calculate the “average” ticket price. As you mentioned, perks complicate the issue, as do box seats that are for all events in an arena, and the myriad of special deals. Since we don’t know how the NHL calculates it, we don’t really know the situation.

 

Maniscalco was discussing the ticket increase this morning, and was quoting Forbes, indicating that not only are the Hurricanes prices below the average, they have the lowest ticket prices in the league – by a good margin. I suspect he was looking at this: http://blog.tiqiq.com/2013/09/2013-14-nhl-average-ticket-prices-team/ , which appears to be secondary market prices. So not exactly relevant, except to make it even more clear why STH are upset – the prices for tickets that could be purchased on the secondary market instead of STH tickets are, well, cheap.

 

Anyway, I looked at the latest Forbes numbers for each team, which lists the average ticket price (whatever that means and however they calculate it). From those numbers, the Hurricanes are not the cheapest, but are only marginally above the 75% cut line. Although at only $1 higher than Buffalo, with all the complaining Buffalo has done that they have to increase prices because of the CBA, it would not be unrealistic to believe the Hurricanes are in the same situation. If the NHL comes up with similar numbers, of course. If they come up with numbers more in line with the report from teammarketing that you linked, then perhaps not.

 

For those interested, here are the numbers from Forbes (from last season), with those below the 75% line (48.05) asterisked:

Team  Average ticket price

FLA   35 *

ARI   40 *

TBL   44 *

CBJ   47 *

NJD   48 *

COL   50

DAL   51

BUF   52

CAR   53

STL   53

ANA   53

NYI   55

OTT   55

NAS   56

MIN   65

CGY   65

WAS   66

DET   66

LAK   66

SJS   68

PIT   71

PHI   72

EDM   76

WPG   77

CHI   79

NYR   80

VAN   87

BOS   89

MTL   91

TOR  112

Average:  64.07

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. . .

My questions now are:

·         Is there a team that offers a lower cost and more benefits for 2015-2016 than the Canes?

. . .

 

Don't know about the benefits part, but TB, Dallas, and Colorado all have their 2015-16 packages listed. I scanned them, and while it's hard to compare given the large variation in ticket prices within each stadium, it looks to me like all three are probably cheaper on average than Carolina.  Examples (per ticket for full season ticket package):

 

Team         "Fan Zone"   Upper Level Center   Lower Level Center

Carolina          $15                        $40                         $116-$119

TB                   $19                        $30                         $85(?)

Dallas              $15                        $21                        $110

Colorado         $19                        $30                         $115

 

If you really want an accurate comparison for locations similar to "your seats" you should check the team sites.

 

[Florida, Arizona, and Buffalo weren't up when I looked)

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. . .

 

Maniscalco was discussing the ticket increase this morning, and was quoting Forbes, indicating that not only are the Hurricanes prices below the average, they have the lowest ticket prices in the league – by a good margin. I suspect he was looking at this: http://blog.tiqiq.com/2013/09/2013-14-nhl-average-ticket-prices-team/ , which appears to be secondary market prices. So not exactly relevant, except to make it even more clear why STH are upset – the prices for tickets that could be purchased on the secondary market instead of STH tickets are, well, cheap.

 

Anyway, I looked at the latest Forbes numbers for each team, which lists the average ticket price (whatever that means and however they calculate it). From those numbers, the Hurricanes are not the cheapest, but are only marginally above the 75% cut line. Although at only $1 higher than Buffalo, with all the complaining Buffalo has done that they have to increase prices because of the CBA, it would not be unrealistic to believe the Hurricanes are in the same situation. If the NHL comes up with similar numbers, of course. If they come up with numbers more in line with the report from teammarketing that you linked, then perhaps not.

 

. . .

 

I'm almost positive the Forbes numbers are from TiqIQ ( a ticket seller) and that the TiqIQ numbers are from the secondary market.  If so that would seem to invalidate any calculations based on those numbers as they pertain to the CBA clause.  Think about it:

better teams -> higher franchise-sold prices to start AND higher prices on the secondary market (maybe even inflated from original ticket prices). 

worse teams -> lower franchise-sold prices to start AND most likely deflated prices on the secondary market. 

 

Sure, there's exceptions (Toronto), but you get the drift.

 

While I don't completely trust accuracy of the Fan Cost Index numbers (https://www.teammarketing.com/public/uploadedPDFs/nhl%20fci%2015.pdf) at least they claim to be based on actual season ticket prices.

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I agree that using the secondary prices will be invalid. And a lot of the Forbes articles do use the secondary market prices from TiqIQ,  (like here http://blog.tiqiq.com/2013/09/2013-14-nhl-average-ticket-prices-team/) which I am thinking Maniscalco was using. That matches the claim he was making that the Hurricanes pricing is the lowest in the league, by a good bit.

 

However, I think the ones in the pages for each team (for valuations) are the team pricing. The numbers are not the same as what they list for secondary prices, and those are the numbers I used. (If I had used the secondary numbers, the Hurricanes would need to double their ticket prices to reach the 75% mark.). For example, Toronto has an average listed as $112 on their valuation page, and their report on the secondary market prices lists them as $200-400+. Just comparing the numbers between the valuation pages on Forbes and the TiqIQ page, it seems like that the valuation pages are using the actual sale prices. Those numbers put the Hurricanes at #22 in the league. And puts Buffalo at #23 (which is where Buffalo claimed to be.)

 

Of course, I can't see anywhere Forbes states what they mean by "average ticket price" on those pages, either, so who really knows. 

 

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We may be boring some folks, but I think this is a great discussion.

 

First, Waddell said "Bottom 5".  When I hear that from a guy like him, I assume that means "5th", because if we were last, he would have said so.

Second, I got miffed by Maniscalco saying "last by a good margin" this morning since I had just read Waddell's "bottom 5."  I knew something was amiss.

 

So you guys bring up the secondary market.  Good point, but surely not used in any CBA.  To complicate matters, Florida was giving away so many tickets that it had to depress their secondary market.  My understanding is those Forbes quotes are old.  Florida finally tightened it up a bit this year.

 

There is so much room for interpretation!  How do you calculate it?  Here are some ways:

 

1) Just average the different ticket zone prices.  Simple, but really doesn't tell the story because there are many less "on the glass" seats than other zones.  This method would inflate prices.

 

2) Take all the seats at box office price and average them.  You'd add up all 17,000 seats or so and divide by 17000.  This is the most true average.  But does box office price make sense?

 

3) Same as 2, but use season ticket prices.

 

4) A twist on 3.  Take the SOLD season tickets and average only those.  This could be interesting, considering the fan zone attendance for full STHer's.

 

5) Literally take all the ticket revenue received last year, and divide by "seats sold" attendance.  This is the ultimate true average.

 

6) Come up with another method.  I could think of a few more.

 

 

So, when you want to talk prices, pick whichever method makes your case.  I have no idea what method Mr. Waddell is using.  I have no idea what the CBA is using.    Frankly, we're in the dark and just pawns in rich men's games.

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As long as we are splitting hairs, someone (mgmt., fans, whoever) should not lose sight of the fact that in major markets EVERYTHING, including housing -in some places by a lot - food and transportation costs a lot more than here. And in those markets, people are typically better compensated for comparable jobs. So they have more $$ for entertainment, including sporting events.

Speaking of getting more for your money, I have posted elsewhere more than once that any "in-game" entertainment virtually disappeared after the All-Star break. Amber is gone. The pre-game report by John Forslund regarding the opponent and what to expect from the game has disappeared. I mean they still do a couple of promotions that were paid for by a sponsor and throw out t-shirts, but that is about it. I'm there to see the game, but for casual fans, the little folksy extras probably make the experience more enjoyable. Essentially it seems like everything aside from the game itself that costs the team anything to produce or provide at the games is gone.

And someone should take a poll. Will these changes, including eliminating popular mini-plans, increase attendance or cause it to decrease? This would be the closest we would ever come on this board to 100% agreement. So who or what benefits if attendance falls again next year?

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Just did the math for tickets in my current section (112),   if I got all "cheap" Bronze games next year (that will be on stubhub very cheap) the cost will go up 28%.    If I got tickets to all Gold games,  the cost will go up 57%.     I assume I would lean towards Gold with a few Silver and maybe a bronze or two,  so I am estimating the increase is around 40% per game for me.    I can not believe that ANYONE would think an increase like that is justified.

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I had the same concern as you, but then saw where they said that there will be at least 25 bronze games, which leaves no more than 16 games that can be Silver or Gold. I believe this season they had 4 "marquee" games and 4 "marquee gold" games, so it might end up being similar. Obviously it will still be an increase, but hopefully not as bad as it initially looked like it could be.

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All 8 of us who plan to renew will adore being in an arena full of opposing fans.

 

(EDIT:  Clarify: 8 total canes fans... not 8 tickets for me)

 

I looked at costs, and continuing as a full STH vs. the 22 pack.  I'm moving to the Fan Zone.  If they give me grief, I'm done.

Well, last year about this time PK said that fans "needed to be more patient".  I wonder what miracle spin he will put on this?

"I like our team."

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Still dealing with the effects of  the stroke and other health issues. Have been to just one game since that time.  Even if my health improves to the point I have the energy to attend games,, I am not renewing. 

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I would just comment that if you want accurate data you have to hunt for it, you can't listen to the 99.9 shills or the Canes organization, or the broadcasters paid by the club.  They are the same ones feeding us the lines about who the good players are, what the great moves are, etc.

 

The last time Mo got fired I never heard such a stunning turnaround by media in my life.  They went from constantly supporting him to immediately touting the team had serious deficiencies that would take a lot of time to address.  Just a great example of how the company line permeates those broadcasts.

 

It's a side effect of not having enough media coverage here on the Canes.

 

Your only sources of truth are sorting through all the wheat and chaff here on this message board (or the other one) and an occasional Luke DeCock gem.  In all fairness to Maniscalco, he said Cam was around the 30th player to play 500 games before the game, then Johnny F told us 64th player after the game, there is the latest example of truth in broadcasting.  Its not malicious in my opinion, just not fact checked.  Mike might think we have the lowest season tickets because someone told him that.

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Well I doubt this earns me any friends (luckily I’m not taking applications for them right now) but here’s my opinion on what’s happening.

What has happened that would justify a 43% price increase? 

I think the obvious answer here is nothing.

In my opinion the Hurricanes organization is trying to make it more appealing to full STH and less appealing (and closer to what other teams do) for smaller ticket plans. It will also allow the Canes to get a fair market value for what they have here in Raleigh.

 

Are there any teams offering what the Canes did/do at the same or less price for half or partial seasons?

·         Unused Ticket Exchange?

·         Vouchers (half only)?

·         Opportunity to give guidance where you want to sit?

 

Out of Toronto, Columbus, Arizona, Edmonton and Buffalo I would think only maybe Arizona or Columbus even come close but I still think Canes are cheaper. In Edmonton and Buffalo you have to pay just to be on a season ticket waiting list.

 

I think the biggest mistake the Canes have made over the years is treating all the STH’s the same as far as benefits. I’ve bought single tickets (using the 20 different discounts the Canes offer each year), 12 game, 26 game and full season tickets over the last 7 years. The benefits should be based on the commitment (money spent) from the purchaser. I don’t see how someone spending $645 on a full season in the upper deck should get the same benefits as someone spending $2064 in the lower level. It’s a completely different level of commitment financially. I think the Canes have started that approach and went with ticket # commitment instead of overall $ amount.

My questions now are:

·         Is there a team that offers a lower cost and more benefits for 2015-2016 than the Canes?

·         Are all season ticket holders mad or just 26 and 12 game plan holders?

·         Will any partial plan holders join up with others to do a full season and split the tickets/benefits? (This is my personal plan)

 

Good luck to those that are unhappy. I don’t see the Canes changing packages at this point but they have been flexible in the past.

 

On a side note, I did two full seasons just buying them with the various discounts/ Craigslist and I was able to pay less than a full STH price. It just required a ton of work but I guess it’s all what you put into it…

 

Because commitment = $$?  Ok. 

 

Sorry, but no.  How about leaving work early to get to games on time, paying for parking for every game, making plans to get someone to watch the kids/dog whatever for 40 nights a year?  People pay what they can afford to pay.  Season tickets to a pro team is a luxury item.  How much is that season ticket package as a percentage of your income? 

 

I go to every game and buy fan zone tickets because it's the only section left I can afford.  I'm sorry, but when you're talking about commitment, someone who goes to every game should get more benefits than someone who goes to 12, no matter how much money you're spending.

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The sad thing is that there is a base here that would fill this building if we could just put a winning team on the ice for a few years. Seems like the organization made an executive decision to lay most of the pain on the mini pack people this year. Not sure that was a great idea.

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The sad thing is that there is a base here that would fill this building if we could just put a winning team on the ice for a few years. Seems like the organization made an executive decision to lay most of the pain on the mini pack people this year. Not sure that was a great idea.

As a current 12 gamer, I'd have to agree. With the changes in price plus the elimination of vouchers, the per game cost is going to rise about 40%, and there is no such thing as "my seats" any more. They have eliminated just about every reason to be a partial plan STH. The make your own plan is just committing to buy 11 games for the year and get a modest discount. Playoff priority can be had with a 3 game pack late in the season if you want.

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Because commitment = $$?  Ok. 

 

Sorry, but no.  How about leaving work early to get to games on time, paying for parking for every game, making plans to get someone to watch the kids/dog whatever for 40 nights a year?  People pay what they can afford to pay.  Season tickets to a pro team is a luxury item.  How much is that season ticket package as a percentage of your income? 

 

I go to every game and buy fan zone tickets because it's the only section left I can afford.  I'm sorry, but when you're talking about commitment, someone who goes to every game should get more benefits than someone who goes to 12, no matter how much money you're spending.

 

No matter where you sit or what you pay all your examples are true - How about leaving work early to get to games on time, paying for parking for every game, making plans to get someone to watch the kids/dog whatever for 40 nights a year. I pay for a babysitter for 2/3rds of the games however I've never had to have one for my dog...  :D  Plus once again, these are choices you make, you could get to the game a few minutes late, park outside the arena, cut back on food/ drinks at the PNC, etc. I made a deal with my wife to not buy 2 beers every game this year like seasons past. That alone has saved me $670.

 

Now to your point - I'm sorry, but when you're talking about commitment, someone who goes to every game should get more benefits than someone who goes to 12, no matter how much money you're spending. That's EXACTLY what the Canes are doing now. They are making sure the Full STH get the best benefits and aligning the other plans/ benefits to create that shift in culture. 

 

I get why people are upset. Price increases and loss of benefits for anything sucks. I personally think the "Fan Zone" is bad for business. It creates a entry point for a professional sports team that is to low and creates secondary market of "cheap" tickets which isn't good for the Canes. I also think Rutherford steered the Canes way off course on and off the ice for the last 10 years. The effect is now is Waddell is trying to clean up the mess in one big swoop. I think everyone agrees this could have been a phased in approach with a pre-warning going to those affected plans/ ticket holders to set expectations and it would have been received a lot better.

  • 2015-2016 - cut back vouchers, preferred seat location and STH perks for mini plans. (keep ticket prices the same)
  • 2016-2017 - move to Gold, Silver, Bronze format. (increase ticket prices accordingly)

At least this way it's not one big cost increase and loss of benefits all at once and mini plan holders know what to expect. I do think though the Canes need pull back the benefits. Partial plan holders get almost zero benefits with other teams. The benefit is the cheaper cost. 

 

Compare cost and benefits the Canes offer now for partial plans vs other teams and they align a lot better. If that means the Canes can't sustain a fanbase here then they will be moved at the end of 2024 or if someone buyouts the PNC Center lease agreement before that.

 

Granted none of my opinions account for how bad the on ice product has been. I quit getting upset when they lose and see the games more as a chance to watch NHL caliber hockey with my wife (or son) at a price that's cheaper than almost all the other 30 teams. We went to the Canes/ Hawks game in Chicago last year. The Hurricanes got me the tickets (so I didn't have to scalp at crazy prices). To sit in the exact location I do at PNC in the United Center cost me $380 just for two tickets. My price here is $110. This is the same when I got to Canes/ Caps games in DC. My same seats there are $188 for two at their STH rate. I realize both those teams on ice product is much better but it's hasn't always been that way. Plus it makes it easier to justify (at least in my head) what I spend knowing other teams charge way more.

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As a current 12 gamer, I'd have to agree. With the changes in price plus the elimination of vouchers, the per game cost is going to rise about 40%, and there is no such thing as "my seats" any more. They have eliminated just about every reason to be a partial plan STH. The make your own plan is just committing to buy 11 games for the year and get a modest discount. Playoff priority can be had with a 3 game pack late in the season if you want.

 

At least you think so, if they follow the old pattern.  And it is probably true... But...

 

SD, very good points.  They have eliminated just about every reason for partial STH.  True statement, and it is painful.

 

I'm just glad they are excited over in ticket operations.  Boy, if they get excited at screwing their customers, I wonder what it is like to work there?

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Still dealing with the effects of  the stroke and other health issues. Have been to just one game since that time.  Even if my health improves to the point I have the energy to attend games,, I am not renewing. 

 

Colliefan - Hope your health improves! We miss seeing you (and your jersey that stumps most) down in 130 this year.

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We may be boring some folks, but I think this is a great discussion.

 

First, Waddell said "Bottom 5".  When I hear that from a guy like him, I assume that means "5th", because if we were last, he would have said so.

Second, I got miffed by Maniscalco saying "last by a good margin" this morning since I had just read Waddell's "bottom 5."  I knew something was amiss.

 

So you guys bring up the secondary market.  Good point, but surely not used in any CBA.  To complicate matters, Florida was giving away so many tickets that it had to depress their secondary market.  My understanding is those Forbes quotes are old.  Florida finally tightened it up a bit this year.

 

There is so much room for interpretation!  How do you calculate it?  Here are some ways:

 

1) Just average the different ticket zone prices.  Simple, but really doesn't tell the story because there are many less "on the glass" seats than other zones.  This method would inflate prices.

 

2) Take all the seats at box office price and average them.  You'd add up all 17,000 seats or so and divide by 17000.  This is the most true average.  But does box office price make sense?

 

3) Same as 2, but use season ticket prices.

 

4) A twist on 3.  Take the SOLD season tickets and average only those.  This could be interesting, considering the fan zone attendance for full STHer's.

 

5) Literally take all the ticket revenue received last year, and divide by "seats sold" attendance.  This is the ultimate true average.

 

6) Come up with another method.  I could think of a few more.

 

 

So, when you want to talk prices, pick whichever method makes your case.  I have no idea what method Mr. Waddell is using.  I have no idea what the CBA is using.    Frankly, we're in the dark and just pawns in rich men's games.

 

To me, 5) is the only one that seems to meet what I believe to be the spirit of the "ticket price" clause, and it should be easy to calculate, as well.  The only "down" side I can see is that it could only be calculated after the season is over, not before. 

 

As far as what Waddell is using, I suspect it's the method that shows ticket prices in the best light possible from a Canes mgmt perspective.    

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Up until last year, my family of 4 would go to 20 or more games a year.  We would buy them when we got there, or a week or so before because I could get the military discount.  We went to 4 last year, and we have been to 2 this year (one which was free).  We didn't see the need for season tickets, we live 1.5 hours away and we had to go when it was good for us.  With the ticket price increases, the parking and the concessions (Good Lord), we depend on Fox Sports South to get our hockey fix.  The value is not there any longer, in my opinion.  Besides, when they are sucking it up and I am home, I can change the channel.

 

I really do feel for you season ticket holders.  You have stuck it out, for several years, and this is the thanks you get in return.  I hope that I am wrong, but I swear it almost seems like they are trying to sabotage the team.  Maybe the long term goal of management is to be another Atlanta, whether intentionally or not.

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