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2015 Off-Season talk

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Bottom line is E doesn't excel anywhere.  The "we have to find someone to get him going has already commenced".  He is our Captain, and he couldn't lead a group of Eskimos to a firepit.  He wants to be a part of the rebuild, he just doesn't want to put the effort into it that it takes to make it happen.  Haven't posted much, just looking and reading.  Dejavu, the same damn conversations concerning the same people year after year.  I am just surprised that we still have folks up here that will come to his defense when you can clearly watch him and tell he could care less by the way he plays.  Yes, he is arguably the best that we have, which doesn't say much about the remaining talent.  NEWSFLASH PK, you can't make chicken salad out of chicken ----! The worst part is RF has probably done everything that he could to turn the ship, no money and undesirable big names and stupid contracts will limit your ability to change very much.  Oh well, at least we are accustomed to what we can expect come October.  The shock factor is long gone in Carolina.

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Eric Staal was drafted as being known to score dirty goals. He went to high traffic areas and had a knack for finding the puck on rebounds. That game may not be as apparent anymore, but that type of play is usually coached into a player. Look at his career point totals and you'll see he's produced a ton on a team that rarely has a winning year. He was drafted 2nd overall, AND leads every other player in his draft year (which was a DEEP draft) to this day. Stop trying to find a singular part of this team to blame. If anyone, blame JR and be glad he is gone. Eric Staal is one the best players in the league. His point totals lately may not represent that, but please realize as a player gets older, they tend to decline over time. Not only that, but look at our rosters the past nine years. We haven't iced a lineup that actually had skill, size, speed, and physicality besides maybe two of those years (2009, 2014 [arguably]). We are building towards that, and anyone who says Eric Staal shouldn't be a part of that because he's suffered on a crappy team the past almost decade, then you're not really being very fair. 

 

We move Eric and we move our ONLY legit top 3 forward. Stop looking at it like all these players we try to put with Eric doesn't work out because Eric. Semin obviously wasn't Eric's fault. Tlusty wasn't either. And everyone loves to ignore the fact the entire team was learning a new system AGAIN after beginning to memorize and understand the previous system. Eric Staal is not immune to the adjustments that have to be made to buy into a new system. Yes he had a horrendous year statistically speaking. The only players on the roster who didn't in my opinion was Victor Rask (who wasn't even supposed to make the team), Cam Ward, and Justin Faulk. 

 

Stop trying to start up a witch hunt on one player when first off it's a team sport, secondly the team is following a set of plays created by BP, and thirdly to continue to blame the team's fortune on one player in a team game is just irresponsible. You can point out he's the captain all you want, if you think stitching a C on someone else's jersey will somehow miraculously make the team better, you're not thinking realistically.

 

My bottom line is, we are rebuilding and trying to set up a long term success. In this fan's opinion, it'll be a hell of a lot longer of a rebuild without Eric as opposed to with Eric.

 

Do you really think we'll be able to replace even 50 points of his next season without replacing him (which we are absolutely NOT in a position to do)? 

 

I see both Skinner and Eric having huge years this year, barring injury.

 

Sorry, I'll go back into the shadows.  :hide:

Edited by SuckaPunchd

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Not to be an E. Staal apologist, but I don't think we have seen him play wing for more than a fraction of a season. Jordan was not even playing last year until almost game 40, and Eric was not placed on his line for quite some time after Jordan returned. I'd say the sample size for deciding if they play well together is pretty small. That being said, I don't think we paid Jordan $60 million to center his brother's line.

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Not sure he is a wing, and while I appreciate the sentiment, I would not use the term "lethal sniper" and EStaal in the same sentence.  

 

My buddy and I call him "Captain Stuffy" at the games and I think his goals are usually more of that variety, poking it in off the reeb or the wrapper.

 

That play is more of a possession center play.

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IMO the problem isn't Eric. Say anything you want about him but in the end he is NHL top 6 caliber.

 

Move him to center we are a stronger team down the middle

Keep him on left wing. and we are stronger on the left side

Move him to right wing (I think that is were he belongs) and we are stronger on the right side.

 

The problem is we only have one Eric. Unless we upgrade our top lines you can move him anywhere you want but you can't hide the fact we need at least two more top players. That has nothing to do with Eric.

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I guess my comments sparked off this annual discussion. 

 

Funny thing is, I wasn't trying to focus on Eric and start up this debate again. I said neither is good at the role they were in and I hope they break up the Staals.  I don't think Eric is a particularly good winger over and above what he currently brings at center.  With the eye test only, I don't think Jordan is particularly good as a primarily offensive center, regardless of who he is playing with.

 

That post was intended to be directed at Eric-Jordan, and particularly whether Jordan Staal was the best fit as Eric's center.  It's a small sample size as mentioned, but it did span the course of parts of two seasons. 

 

I respect that some people find Eric to be a natural winger, or those that think he is better suited to play wing at this time in his career.  So, getting past that, and assuming he remains at wing, is Jordan the best fit beside him as the number one offensive center, or would the team be better served to try someone else there to balance out the lines?

 

GMRF doesn't seem to be in any rush to add a FA, so I'm going off the players we have now or in the system.

Edited by coastal_caniac

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JStaal gives great effort and the team is better with him, but he has hands of stone. He is not an offensive forward. He is going to score a certain ammount from sheer effort. I'd say E is still the top center on the team. I'd split them up. They don't have some kind of mind meld thing going on while on the ice. E's best productivity has been at center. In my opinion, keeping them together is not maximizing their abilities.

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Says you Top.

 

The one who ignores the fact Jordan Staal is certainly not demonstrated he's a number one center.  And I do have 8 years of proof of that, both in Pittsburgh and in Carolina.

 

Regardless of whether Eric Staal is a better fit at wing (or not), Eric-Jordan hasn't worked, which was the original point.  One you chose to ignore to get right to your predictable shots at Eric Staal, or your condescending remarks to anyone you see as a fan.

 

So, using your own logic and words above....

 

"Let's go back to doing what we KNOW doesn't work, instead of trying something different that just might".....

 

....like separating the Staals.

coastal, full respect, but I have said repeatedly on this board (even in direct agreement with you, I recall) that Jordan is no #1 center. He's a #2 at best. But that doesn't make Eric a #1, either. 

 

Roddy was the last #1 center this franchise has had, and (for my money) Rask is probably the next. But to your more pressing claim, that playing them together "hasn't worked": On on hand, we have seven years of Eric at #1 with pretty much every winger JR could bring in not working. On the other, we have about three months, when the team was already way out of a playoff spot, of having them together - and without a set guy on the other wing. And you are holding those three meaningless (standings wise) months as proof that having them together doesn't work (though, it is important to note, the team's performance in the second half last year was light years better than the first).

 

Clearly we disagree, and that's okay. But to my ears, you are saying "let's go back to what we have a seven-year data set showing it doesn't work." I am saying, let's put a freakin' fencepost on the other wing (which would be more active than Sasha ever was) and as long as it's the SAME fencepost, these two guys together have the skill and hockey sense to figure out how to carom the puck off it to create scoring opportunities. 

 

IMO, if one your two top-paid players is better at faceoffs and holding real estate in the slot (Jordan) and one is better shooting and making plays from the perimeter (Eric), put em' both on the first line with a predicable third linemate night in and night out and let's give the line the same opportunity to gel that that we gave countless other combos over all these years, with Eric at the dot. 

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I guess my comments sparked off this annual discussion. 

 

Funny thing is, I wasn't trying to focus on Eric and start up this debate again. I said neither is good at the role they were in and I hope they break up the Staals.  I don't think Eric is a particularly good winger over and above what he currently brings at center.  With the eye test only, I don't think Jordan is particularly good as a primarily offensive center, regardless of who he is playing with.

 

That post was intended to be directed at Eric-Jordan, and particularly whether Jordan Staal was the best fit as Eric's center.  It's a small sample size as mentioned, but it did span the course of parts of two seasons. 

 

I respect that some people find Eric to be a natural winger, or those that think he is better suited to play wing at this time in his career.  So, getting past that, and assuming he remains at wing, is Jordan the best fit beside him as the number one offensive center, or would the team be better served to try someone else there to balance out the lines?

 

GMRF doesn't seem to be in any rush to add a FA, so I'm going off the players we have now or in the system.

Well the obvious answer is Rask, and I guess if we're willing to give Hanifin a shot at 18, this might be the year to experiment with Rask at #1. That being said, I think a lot depends on whether Eric is extended before the season begins. If not, I think he is kept with his brother on the first line and Rask is given more time to develop before getting first-line minutes. But if Eric is extended, I'd love to see Rask and Lindy with Eric as the top line and Jordan with Skinner and Nesty as the second.

 

And - I can hear the board shuddering collectively - I don't think BP has given up on making Murphy into a wing, based on the numbers he put up at the same time he played with Skinner in Kitchener. But I'm really hoping Nesty gets a shot at the top six, because he brings an edge we really need, one we're not going to see from Smurf.

 

I'm also really intrigued by the Ryan signing. Being a point-per-game guy in Sweden doesn't mean he's one here, but he's a center we clearly went out and got for a reason. I can't wait to see if he plays his way onto the roster.

Edited by top-shelf-1

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...But to your more pressing claim, that playing them together "hasn't worked": On on hand, we have seven years of Eric at #1 with pretty much every winger JR could bring in not working. On the other, we have about three months, when the team was already way out of a playoff spot, of having them together - and without a set guy on the other wing. And you are holding those three meaningless (standings wise) months as proof that having them together doesn't work (though, it is important to note, the team's performance in the second half last year was light years better than the first).

 

 

Yes, I am, and the season prior.  And to clarify, I said it ISN'T working.  And I also stated my opinion of the Eric-Jordan combo was based only on my eye test, which means not on television, or the radio - depending on where you watch your games, and not based on production, which obviously is not in your arguments favor.

 

I'm less impressed with the Staal experiment thus far. That's about it.  I'm not attempting to conger up some 8-year old juju for failure. :)

Edited by coastal_caniac

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IMO the problem isn't Eric. Say anything you want about him but in the end he is NHL top 6 caliber.

 

Move him to center we are a stronger team down the middle

Keep him on left wing. and we are stronger on the left side

Move him to right wing (I think that is were he belongs) and we are stronger on the right side.

 

The problem is we only have one Eric. Unless we upgrade our top lines you can move him anywhere you want but you can't hide the fact we need at least two more top players. That has nothing to do with Eric.

f7FdEdG.jpg

 

I believe GMRF and BP are hoping some players in the system really do something special and someone pulls a Rask. I also think we may invite a player or two to camp on a tryout basis. 

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Well, you know things are bad when people are discussing Rask as our possible number one center.  An Ahl'er who had a good start last year but didn't produce anything the last half.  Man,  lets go canes. 

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Well, you know things are bad when people are discussing Rask as our possible number one center.  An Ahl'er who had a good start last year but didn't produce anything the last half.  Man,  lets go canes. 

I feel ya, danimal. We all want to see more production out of everybody. But there is a HUGE elephant in the room that we really need to notice and take into account: Last year was never going to be a good year for anybody, and we all knew it before the season started. Nobody played on a set forward line for more than about 15 seconds all year. 

 

I don't think the "evaluation year" is over (in Peters' mind) until the last game of the coming preseason. I think BP will start the regular season with set lines and give them time to gel - 20 games at least, hopefully the whole first half. I'm hoping his message on opening night is "Guys, these are our lines. If you work hard every shift, play for each other, and have each other's back, the sky's the limit, but it isn't going to happen overnight. Now get out there and start working towards it."

 

As for Rask, nobody's saying he's ready for #1. But at 22 years old, 6-1, 200 lbs and 8 years younger than Eric, could he be that guy? All he did at Worlds was combine with Lindy for 10 points in 8 games (5 G and 5 A between them, Rask had 3 markers). And that was on the 3rd line, whose job it usually is to keep the opposition's 1st line off the scoreboard. So I can totally see both guys turning into first-liners three or four years down the road with Peters' guidance.

 

In the meantime, there will be pain for we fans and plenty of it. But if BP's plan works, some bright spots should peek thru the clouds by the second half of this year.

 

The optimist in me says we catch lighting in a bottle, have a great start this year, and slip into the playoffs. That'd be great for this team in countless ways. But the realist says it's 2016-17 before Peters' system becomes second nature and the whole team has the experience and complete trust in each other that it'll take to reach the next level.

Edited by top-shelf-1

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Well, you know things are bad when people are discussing Rask as our possible number one center.  An Ahl'er who had a good start last year but didn't produce anything the last half.  Man,  lets go canes. 

 

This isn't even close to accurate.

 

Rask scored 22 of his 33 points after January 10, including 2 game winning goals (second on the team).  He was also damn good on shootouts.  After that, he went on to tear it up with Lindholm at the WC, which was even more impressive, given the grind of an 82-game NHL schedule on a young body.

 

I'm not saying he's even close to being ready to be a number one center, but come on, he was one of the bright spots on the team last year. 

 

I know the Canes had a bad year, but give credit where it's due.

Edited by coastal_caniac

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On most teams Jordan Staal would be a second or third center depending how he was used. But he would be a darn good one in whatever role he played. We aren't most teams so as it stands I don't have a problem with him on top line and skating with E if that is how it shakes out. I thought Eric and Jordan did show some good chemistry together and I will be interested to see if it can develop further this season. Francis could still make some moves and that could change the scenario but at the moment I think Staal and Staal are the best option.

 

I wouldn't think Rask is a first line center but I'm not going to sell him short again. Last season I didn't think he was ready to make the leap and did he prove me wrong. The kid has game.

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This isn't even close to accurate.

 

Rask scored 22 of his 33 points after January 10, including 2 game winning goals (second on the team).  He was also damn good on shootouts.  After that, he went on to tear it up with Lindholm at the WC, which was even more impressive, given the grind of an 82-game NHL schedule on a young body.

 

I'm not saying he's even close to being ready to be a number one center, but come on, he was one of the bright spots on the team last year. 

 

I know the Canes had a bad year, but give credit where it's due.

My point exactly, and right, he is nowhere near ready for #1. But 3-4 years from now, he'll be in the prime years of his career and his progress has been remarkable so far. 

 

On most teams Jordan Staal would be a second or third center depending how he was used. But he would be a darn good one in whatever role he played. We aren't most teams so as it stands I don't have a problem with him on top line and skating with E if that is how it shakes out. I thought Eric and Jordan did show some good chemistry together and I will be interested to see if it can develop further this season. Francis could still make some moves and that could change the scenario but at the moment I think Staal and Staal are the best option.

 

I wouldn't think Rask is a first line center but I'm not going to sell him short again. Last season I didn't think he was ready to make the leap and did he prove me wrong. The kid has game.

The thing many are overlooking is that, from the org's point of view, this is the perfect time to put guys into situations they are not yet ready for and see how they'll respond, just to see how close they are. Not saying he's put at #1 by any means; but it's hard to imagine that going into camp and preseason he has not earned the right to compete for #2. If he solidifies that and has a good year, logic dictates that he'd challenge for #1 in a future camp.

 

BP is all about competition for ice time, and that's how it should be - no matter what name is on the sweater or how much a guy is making. 

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Sad state of affairs currently when there's more current chatter on Chantel's replacement, and MM's imagined drinking proclivity, than on our team! Oh the Dog Days of summer.

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Lack's new pads.  Coastal approves :applaud:B)

 

BfvuUp.jpg

 

 

Whenever I see the manufacturer's logo turned sideways, I keep seeing Hello Kitty.  I have 5 daughters, so I may have a skewed view of the world.

 

2zh1pp4.png

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Unless some changes are made before the season, I see two possibilities for our opening night top line.  It will either be:

 

E. Staal / J. Staal / Tolchinsky

                  or

E. Staal / Rask / Lindholm

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I thought the NHL.com 30 Teams In 30 Days gave an honest assessment of our chances. 

 

NHL.com

 

 

Of course as a fan I would like to see us in the playoff mix and it could happen. But I can settle with the assessment that we could be in the mix late but not quite make it. That's better recognition than we got going into last season. 

 

Once the puck drops in October I'll be all. Playoff bound B)

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So, been gone a bit, reading, but not posting.

 

Just listened to GMRF interview and read the NHL.com article shared by OBXer.

 

This is a strange Canes offseason year for me. Even your eternal optimist is finding it hard to envision this group as not being at least a year away, but even more if E ends up leaving (unless we get great return somehow). Long term it is easier to see a plan forming, especially if Eddie Lack is as good as hoped and signs an extention. In that case, Francis really has one task: find some top 6 forwards. Draft, trade, developement, that should be the need w/ goal and the back end set.

 

Oddly though, that is the need for this year too. Listening to Francis, it seems pretty clear that at least at the moment, the hope is that guys currently on the team or in the system pick it up, especially since Peter's style and system are not new anymore. I'm guessing this is the plan because we have little other choice. Sure adding a Justin Williams to our top line would have helped a lot, but what are the chances he would have come here?

 

Just for a minute though I want to reflect on the comment that E has been tried with lots of first line wingers over the recent years and clearly he is the problem. Just one request. Name one of these first line wingers that we didn't just buy out due to utter failure to show up.

 

The only legit first line winger E has had since we last made the playoffs is Alexander Semin. And for that brief glimmering moment that Semin played like a first line winger, E put up a ppg. We hoped Skinner would be that guy, but Skinner is a specialist of somewhat unique talents, of which making his linemates better has been far from first line. Tlusty? 18 and 19 yo Lindholm? LaRose? Gerbe? Post hip surgery Ruutu (both hips)? Who exactly?

 

I don't know what the future holds for E and the Canes as a unit, but the idea that he has had first line talent to play with here since at least 2009 if not really 2006? Nah. I know there have been other issues such as back checking and questionable leadership, but one thing is for sure, if I'm Eric I'm seriously wondering about my career arc waiting here for a legit first line winger vs. moving on where one is waiting. I still think that if a top scoring winger came here that at least on the ice, E can still bring it. Proably not a popular opininon, but IMHO true. Problem of course...finding one. We don't seem particularly close at the moment, at the very moment we are discussing an extension btw.

 

I do wonder what Cam might bring. IF Eddie Lack can be the man, moving Cam for some part of a deal to get a top 6 winger might be a nice move.

 

Finally, I was reading back over a lot of good posts from the last couple of weeks, but w/ my short attention span was most recently looking at cclifford's top line of Staal Staal Tolchinksy. At first I kind of laughed, but then, maybe not so fast on that laugh. I am not a huge fan of the Staals together, but the idea of Tolchinsky....this team will need some forward from the underleagues to just step in and be the camp surprise. Just blow us away. Like Rask of last year, only maybe even more. Who better than Tolchinsky? He was the dazzling standout from development camp. He's been distroying Junior hockey. We've seen Johny Hockey do it as a tiny guy. If he could, and if key guys get back to form and others (Lindy and Rask) progress....never know..I'll put a chip on Tolchinsky making the team out of camp.

Edited by remkin

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I thought the NHL.com 30 Teams In 30 Days gave an honest assessment of our chances.

NHL.com

Of course as a fan I would like to see us in the playoff mix and it could happen. But I can settle with the assessment that we could be in the mix late but not quite make it. That's better recognition than we got going into last season.

Once the puck drops in October I'll be all. Playoff bound B)

I thought all the articles on nhlcom about the canes were lame go through the motions minimal effort garbage. Was there anything that either isn't blatantly obvious or hadn't already been talked about over and over in them. "We need more offense so we can score more !" Genius.

I was excited at first to have something new to read then disappointed when they reminded me of all the national announcers taking about what a talent semin is last year when I had a chance to listen to other broadcast teams.

Edited by caryhurricanes

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So, been gone a bit, reading, but not posting.

 

Just listened to GMRF interview and read the NHL.com article shared by OBXer.

 

This is a strange Canes offseason year for me. Even your eternal optimist is finding it hard to envision this group as not being at least a year away, but even more if E ends up leaving (unless we get great return somehow). Long term it is easier to see a plan forming, especially if Eddie Lack is as good as hoped and signs an extention. In that case, Francis really has one task: find some top 6 forwards. Draft, trade, developement, that should be the need w/ goal and the back end set.

 

Oddly though, that is the need for this year too. Listening to Francis, it seems pretty clear that at least at the moment, the hope is that guys currently on the team or in the system pick it up, especially since Peter's style and system are not new anymore. I'm guessing this is the plan because we have little other choice. Sure adding a Justin Williams to our top line would have helped a lot, but what are the chances he would have come here?

 

Just for a minute though I want to reflect on the comment that E has been tried with lots of first line wingers over the recent years and clearly he is the problem. Just one request. Name one of these first line wingers that we didn't just buy out due to utter failure to show up.

 

The only legit first line winger E has had since we last made the playoffs is Alexander Semin. And for that brief glimmering moment that Semin played like a first line winger, E put up a ppg. We hoped Skinner would be that guy, but Skinner is a specialist of somewhat unique talents, of which making his linemates better has been far from first line. Tlusty? 18 and 19 yo Lindholm? LaRose? Gerbe? Post hip surgery Ruutu (both hips)? Who exactly?

 

I don't know what the future holds for E and the Canes as a unit, but the idea that he has had first line talent to play with here since at least 2009 if not really 2006? Nah. I know there have been other issues such as back checking and questionable leadership, but one thing is for sure, if I'm Eric I'm seriously wondering about my career arc waiting here for a legit first line winger vs. moving on where one is waiting. I still think that if a top scoring winger came here that at least on the ice, E can still bring it. Proably not a popular opininon, but IMHO true. Problem of course...finding one. We don't seem particularly close at the moment, at the very moment we are discussing an extension btw.

 

I do wonder what Cam might bring. IF Eddie Lack can be the man, moving Cam for some part of a deal to get a top 6 winger might be a nice move.

 

Finally, I was reading back over a lot of good posts from the last couple of weeks, but w/ my short attention span was most recently looking at cclifford's top line of Staal Staal Tolchinksy. At first I kind of laughed, but then, maybe not so fast on that laugh. I am not a huge fan of the Staals together, but the idea of Tolchinsky....this team will need some forward from the underleagues to just step in and be the camp surprise. Just blow us away. Like Rask of last year, only maybe even more. Who better than Tolchinsky? He was the dazzling standout from development camp. He's been distroying Junior hockey. We've seen Johny Hockey do it as a tiny guy. If he could, and if key guys get back to form and others (Lindy and Rask) progress....never know..I'll put a chip on Tolchinski making the team out of camp.

 

 

Sure..let's put a player who has yet to play in a single NHL game and yet to score a single NHL goal on the top line.  What could possibly go wrong?  Might as well slot in LaRose while we're at it.

Edited by bluedevil58

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