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 Murphy probably needs more time in Charlotte to simmer as well.  He looked lost out there most of the time, IMO.

 

With all the piling on JR, I do have to admit, he could trade Murphy for the next Sekera....

 

Is Murphy the next McBain? Not yet....

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Just read Chips and Luke's articles in the N&O today. Not much we haven't already been kicking around, except Chip wrote that odds are E and Francis reach an agreement on an extension. I assume this is speculation, but still. Also mentioned that trades to get bigger were possibilites and seemed to imply Skinner or maybe even Murphy as possible trades. Kind of passed on discussing Ward. Seemed to think that the team wouldn't move in the next few years, but after expansion in Las Vegas and Seattle (probably) if we are still not on track, Quebec could come waving cash.

 

And repeated Franicis' meantioning on losing Sekera and Gleason that he wants to find two similar players this offseason. This suggests that they are not feeling all that thrilled with the AHL defenseman tryouts we just had, or that anyone in the system is ready.

 

One main point was that this team needs to score more goals. (The best way to get elite goal scorers in our market is to draft them, "cough" Marner "cough").

Chip's article sounds like a recap of the presser and not much more. Big surprise from Chip "Zero Enterprise" Alexander. How the beat reporter for Raleigh's only pro franchise gets away with doing so little shoe-leather reporting is beyond me. RF plainly stated in the presser that negotiations with Eric will begin "in the next few weeks."

 

I realize we all want to be back in the dance next season. That presser was all about buying "our group" - with maybe one or two significant changes over the summer - another bite at that apple, but my strongest takeaway was that if it doesn't get into playoff contention that's okay (with mgt.), because the contracts coming up at the end of next season are a "natural" endpoint which will allow those players to leave with minimal drama. I've been saying that extending Eric now would be a mistake, but it's occurred to me that, done the right way, it could actually prove to be quite smart - and the "right way" is to do it without an NTC.

 

Locking in a lower price right now for E without an NTC after his current deal is up keeps a trade on the table and basically says, "Eric, we've shown commitment to you and we're showing it yet again. You have one more chance to get yourself and "your" team out of the gate quickly, under a coach who understands the importance of that. If it doesn't happen we can and probably will move you at the TD if you agree to the team, and next summer if you don't. There will be no exceptions based on injuries, your brother's status, Alex's attitude, the frequency of alternate jersey use, or anything else."  

 

With all the piling on JR, I do have to admit, he could trade Murphy for the next Sekera....

 

Is Murphy the next McBain? Not yet....

I don't understand. Why would any team give up a Sekera for a Murphy - and, while I hear everyone's grousing about Murphy, don't forget his age. He's 22; "prime time" for NHL D men is still years away (25-30).

 

What message do we risk sending to others - specifically the current AHL D corps - if we ditch a first-rounder who we've openly admitted we rushed because we lack depth at the NHL level? That lack of depth isn't Murphy's fault. It's the org's, and I salute RF and BP for admitting it, talking about it and pledging to address it in a systematic way that is designed to result in perennial playoff appearances, versus one and then another four-year drought (that's pretty much verbatim from the presser).

Edited by top-shelf-1

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I don't understand. Why would any team give up a Sekera for a Murphy - and, while I hear everyone's grousing about Murphy, don't forget his age. He's 22; "prime time" for NHL D men is still years away (25-30).

 

JR traded McBain for Sekera basically. I'll admit my post is a little negative on Murphy and I also posted that it's too soon to do that. But it a purely theoretical world if we could trade Murphy for Sekera at his previous salary, would you not do it? That was a nice move by JR (Sekera for McBain), which is just a little contrarian thing since Murphy's name has come up. This is purely theoretical. But I'd take Sekera for Murphy any day of the week and twice on Sunday, espeically at his old contract, which was the deal JR made and I was referring to.

 

Also Chip sort of tangentially and probably me reading too much into it seemed to hint that Skinner or Murphy could be traded in size up move.

Edited by remkin

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Chip's article sounds like a recap of the presser and not much more. Big surprise from Chip "Zero Enterprise" Alexander. How the beat reporter for Raleigh's only pro franchise gets away with doing so little shoe-leather reporting is beyond me. RF plainly stated in the presser that negotiations with Eric will begin "in the next few weeks."

Locking in a lower price right now for E without an NTC after his current deal is up keeps a trade on the table and basically says, "Eric, we've shown commitment to you and we're showing it yet again. You have one more chance to get yourself and "your" team out of the gate quickly, under a coach who understands the importance of that. If it doesn't happen we can and probably will move you at the TD if you agree to the team, and next summer if you don't. There will be no exceptions based on injuries, your brother's status, Alex's attitude, the frequency of alternate jersey use, or anything else."  

 

I agree that Chip doesn't often add great insight beyond what we're already kicking around here. Yes, the "talks" for E. were said to be starting soon, so that does seem to indicate some interest. But talks can go on a long time (just ask coach Babcock), and there may be a wide disparity in what we will do and E expects. I know it's not really much, but Chip did say odds are the deal gets done, which I hadn't heard before. But could just be speculation.

 

On the NTC, as you know, I've been harping on that for quite a while now. Obviously I agree with you on that. We are all victims of overvaluing our last slap in the face, and Semin is that for us. A guy w/o a NTC but still untradable. But Semin is really out there on the curve. We paid him mega and he literally did not show up at all. He is the exception. He does point out that long terms and big bucks can cost you even w/o a NTC.

 

But if the term and especially the dollars are reasonable, and there is a NTC, you can usually get out. Even if a guy is traded for a bag of hockey pucks. You can get out.

 

Eric on a contract commensurate with his age and actual recent procuction (and plus/minus) and no NTC would be very worthwhile. I'd even point out that, ironically, he would be very tradable the instant that contract kicked in, and possibly even just knowing it was going to.

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rem, please explain something to me. And please believe that I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you or anyone else on this matter, but I fail to comprehend how on the one hand, one of the most frequently voiced sentiments that peruse these discussions is that we need "size, grit and net front presence", yet many posters, after the passion of miserable seasons subsides, many are fixated on our choice in this draft as Marner.

 

Now, I'll grant to all that Skinner's and Marner's games appear very different, and Marner is younger, but for heavens sake, Marner is already being reported as having possible concussive issues(semantics of this diagnosis are in debate). In my truly humble opinion, with our vast history of dealing with concussions in several, and certainly extremely problematic in one Jeff Skinners, why do we want to potentially travel that road again?

 

Additionally, this franchise, hanging on to fans by a "bare thread", simply cannot afford a 1st round flop again!!

 

In conclusion, not having the luxury of some "sound teams" in terms of backup strength, I think that this pick, this year, has to be conservative.

Edited by KJUNKANE

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 I'd even point out that, ironically, he would be very tradable the instant that contract kicked in, and possibly even just knowing it was going to.

My point exactly. And if Ronnie is really smart, he'll try to get Eric to agree that the NTC on the current deal loses effect at the TD.

 

Re Murphy, of course you'd take Sekera for Murphy. But who'd take Murphy for Sekera?

 

How JR managed to move McBain I don't know, but lightning seldom strikes in the same place twice.

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Re Murphy, of course you'd take Sekera for Murphy. But who'd take Murphy for Sekera?

 

Someone took McBain for Sekera....

 

This is all just kicking stuff around due to boredom though. I guess I was just bringing up one of JR's better moves in the context of having lost Sekera and the idea of trading Murphy mainly to get bigger. No actual literal thoughts that it could be done. Like you said, pulling a move off like the McBain-Sekera deal is pretty rare.

Edited by remkin

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That deal also sent a 2nd round pick Buffalo's way.

 

Fair point, it was a high second rounder too (#35). And we were unable to retain Sekera, so long term that factors in some. But it was, at the time, still a pretty good deal for us.

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rem, please explain something to me. And please believe that I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you or anyone else on this matter, but I fail to comprehend how on the one hand, one of the most frequently voiced sentiments that peruse these discussions is that we need "size, grit and net front presence", yet many posters, after the passion of miserable seasons subsides, many are fixated on our choice in this draft as Marner.

 

Now, I'll grant to all that Skinner's and Marner's games appear very different, and Marner is younger, but for heavens sake, Marner is already being reported as having possible concussive issues(semantics of this diagnosis are in debate). In my truly humble opinion, with our vast history of dealing with concussions in several, and certainly extremely problematic in one Jeff Skinners, why do we want to potentially travel that road again?

 

Additionally, this franchise, hanging on to fans by a "bare thread", simply cannot afford a 1st round flop again!!

 

In conclusion, not having the luxury of some "sound teams" in terms of backup strength, I think that this pick, this year, has to be conservative.

 

Since you asked....

 

On getting bigger. I take the exact position that I distinctly recall Francis taking on this issue. IF ALL ELSE IS EQUAL of course you like the bigger guy. But right before that, when asked for a key quality he was looking for he said SPEED. So, unless someone knows of a quote to the contrary, Francis (and I) value speed above size.

 

We all would like the team to get bigger. Not that size doesn't matter...but if all else is equal.

 

With Marner, Crouse and Ratenen, all else is NOT equal.

 

Marner put up sick, almost McDavidian numbers. He did so while playing hard all the time, defensively responsible, a leader, and with sick skill, vision, anticipation and hockey IQ. In fact the ONLY thing he doesn't do better than anyone else not named some part of McEichel is be 6 feet or taller. The is the definition of being focused on only one thing: size. That is not what Francis said, and not what correlates with all winning teams. Chicago is not a huge team. They've done pretty well.

 

Oh and Marner is fast. Speed trumps size.

 

Rantanen is more interesting than Crouse to me. Watching him, he also has the soft hands and looks very skilled. But this whole kids playing in men's leagues in Scandanavia thing makes it really hard to evalutate them unless they just blow the doors off. Yes, he looked very good in the World Juniors, and that will undoubtably raise his stock. I like him. But there is risk there too. Before the Juniors he was well below the top 10 radar.

 

Crouse has put up OK numbers. He is a power forward. NHL draft history is littered with big, power forwards, who could push their weight around in Juniors but not so much in the NHL. Even playing in Juniors Crouse has not put up big numbers. He has the tools, and he is big, and he will do the things the coach wants him to. He is one of those guys whos chance of making in the NHL is super high, but it might be as a third liner, or a first liner, who knows? Sure, teams need guys like that, but you don't have to draft them at #5 in a deep draft.

 

But elite scorers? Not always, but usually you do. By far, most teams get those guys by drafting top 5 even top 2 or 3. Especially if you aren't the kind of market that can just sign a Hossa or Gaborik as UFAs.

 

Now I have to table rumors of concusions, since we just don't know. But that aside, Marner is the safest pick we are likely to have. Strome will be gone. Probably Hanifin also, though he might be a better pick, defenseman are by nature riskier picks, esepcially high in the draft, so on least risk only it is probably: Strome, Marner, Hanifin.

 

So of Crouse, Marner, and Rantanen, Marner is by far the surest thing in my view.

 

Plus, Marner is not St. Louis or Johny Goudreau at 5'8" and 5'9". He is decent sized. (See the list of superstars that do just fine at 5'11'). And he does not play anything like Skinner. (Who does really?).

 

I know it seems contrarian, but the idea of getting bigger is on the list of general goals, which I support. Drafting the best player at #5 is more important than size. We can focus on size in UFA, and our second round picks, and trades. Trade Skinner and Murphy for bigger guys and suddenly we look very different. Rember too that Semin isn't small but plays like a mouse physically. Frankly, from what I've heard of Strome, he is not physical either.

 

My concern is that we don't get too locked in on always fighting the battles of the past. If Marner didn't play defense and played a very soft game etc, that would be a problem. JR liked to get the small guys in my opinion because JR was a value guy. The Boychuks and Murphy's were supposed to go higher. They were perportedly dropped due only to size and thus, picking mid round, where things are riskier (50% success rate across the NHL), JR took the higher ranked guys who fell due to size.

 

Marner is different. I don't actually recall, but was there great angst when Chicago took Kane at #1 overall? He is no bigger and plays even smaller than Marner.

 

If we take Marner, maybe we can trade Skinner for a big dman? Draft a big guy at #35, and sigin a big UFA.

 

I am not a scout. I absolutely could be wrong about Marner. I've read a lot and watched a lot of video. That's it. In the end I trust Francis and our scouts. I think I'd be ok w/ Rantenen and I know I'd be ok with Hanifin. Crouse I'd have to learn to like.

 

But we can't get totall locked in on ONE thing when all else is not equal.

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The draft pick is kind of a wash since we got the King's prospect (a 2nd round pick) 19 year old Roland McKeown in the trade with the Kings. With also got almost two seasons of Faulk skating with and learning from Sekera.

 

We do need to replace Sekera but as far as the initial trade and subsequent trade to LA I think we did alright.

 

I agree you can never have too many draft picks but we have accumulated quite a few picks this year and getting a 19 year old prospect is as good as getting a pick.

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The draft pick is kind of a wash since we got the King's prospect (a 2nd round pick) 19 year old Roland McKeown in the trade with the Kings. With also got almost two seasons of Faulk skating with and learning from Sekera.

 

We do need to replace Sekera but as far as the initial trade and subsequent trade to LA I think we did alright.

 

That's a great point OBXer. The terminal return on Sekera is in the end part of the total deal. McKeown was a second rounder and while a bit lower in the second than the pick we traded, the Kings traded up to get him. But throw in the Kings first rounder and the picks clearly end up in our favor. So the second rounders cancel out and we are left with Sekera and a first rounder for McBain. Not bad.

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Rem, I not going to quote your last thesis, but, I don't think the front office and scouting staff necessarily agrees with you -

 

If McDavid, Eichel, Hanifin, Strome are top 4 picks, the Canes at No. 5 could take a hard look at a couple of players with size and skill.  Lawson Crouse of Kingston (OHL) is 6-4, 215-pound winger. Top-rated European skater Mikko Rantanen of Finland is 6-4, 211 winger.

Edited by coastal_caniac

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You may be right. At this point I'm just throwing my current 2 cents into the ring. That and around $54 will get you the average ticket to a Canes game (or was it $52).

 

Still, pre draft talk by teams and media (and me) is pretty cheap. GMs are actively talking the opposite of what they'll actually do. I can't think of any recent year where the Canes management tipped their hand about who they actually picked.

 

And the Chip quote really almost sounds like it is all Chip speculating and leaving wide room for other options at that: "The Canes, at No. 5 could (not will) take a look (not pick) at a couple of players with size and skill".

 

There seems to be a wide sense that Francis will go big again with the first pick. I think, like last year he will go big overall throughought the draft, but that first pick? Well it will either be big, or it will be Marner. If Strome and Hanifin are gone? Give me the next Patrick Kane please.

Edited by remkin

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At this point I don't feel the need to speculate about the concussion issue w/ Marner. If the Canes are interested in Marner, I trust that they will be very diligent about checking it out and will inform their decision accordingly.    

 

Size is a different but more meaningful discussion imo.  At the #5 pick I want a forward with skills that project as a likely front line player.  At later picks, I can see weighting size a bit more.  Seems like it's easier to pick up a decent, large, 3rd line prospect than a fast, highly skilled forward. Recently, Nesty and Richard Panik come to mind as good examples of the former.  And I could see Crouse ending up somewhere along those lines.    

Edited by LakeLivin

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rem, please explain something to me. And please believe that I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you or anyone else on this matter, but I fail to comprehend how on the one hand, one of the most frequently voiced sentiments that peruse these discussions is that we need "size, grit and net front presence", yet many posters, after the passion of miserable seasons subsides, many are fixated on our choice in this draft as Marner.

 

Now, I'll grant to all that Skinner's and Marner's games appear very different, and Marner is younger, but for heavens sake, Marner is already being reported as having possible concussive issues(semantics of this diagnosis are in debate). In my truly humble opinion, with our vast history of dealing with concussions in several, and certainly extremely problematic in one Jeff Skinners, why do we want to potentially travel that road again?

 

Additionally, this franchise, hanging on to fans by a "bare thread", simply cannot afford a 1st round flop again!!

 

In conclusion, not having the luxury of some "sound teams" in terms of backup strength, I think that this pick, this year, has to be conservative.

 

Our first round pick is not our only pick in the draft.  This team lacks depth in talent, and with a pick this high in a draft this deep, taking a talented player over a big player.  Every player’s a gamble in the draft, because none of them have proven themselves at the professional level.  You have to look at the big picture.  Who on the current Hurricanes roster is likely to score over 80pts in a season?  I don’t think either Staal ever will, Skinner probably won’t, Lindholm might in a good year, Semin probably won’t.

Drafting purely for size isn’t always a guarantee either.  Last year, the complaining on the board was about why we drafted Lindholm over Nichushkin, even though Nichushkin came into the draft with demands of playing on top lines, refusing to go to the AHL, injury history, and the fact that he couldn’t complete pre-draft physicals.  Drafting Lawson Crouse, who doesn’t put up elite numbers in minors and just got a major suspension for a dirty hit, and Rantenen, who has a little size but is not physical, over Marner, who’s a superior prospect to the both of them, is not the answer.

If the Hurricanes don’t feel comfortable drafting Marner because of concussion concerns or lack of size, that’s actually fine with me, but trade down.  We should always draft the best player available, and if Marner’s there at 5, he has to be the pick.  I think it’s a moot point anyways because he’ll probably be gone by time we reach the podium.  I’m officially on record in hoping Strome or Hanifin falls to us.

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I have heard Ron Francis, John F., Tripp, and now Chip all say that depending on who is left at #5, then there will be in-depth discussions on what to do with that pick, and Crouse and Rantanen were mentioned specifically as two guys they had high on their lists.  I also heard this straight from Mike Vellucci at the PNC, that if Marner (he mentioned him specifically) is on the board at #5, then there will be in-depth discussion on whether another player might better fill a long-term team need. 

 

Where there is smoke there is usually fire, so I'm just cautioning not to completely blow this off as nothing more than media speculation.  I think the Canes are definitely going to consider moving down in the scenario where Marner falls to us.  That doesn't mean it will happen.

 

Oh, and anyone can be labeled as "big".  They aren't just talking about getting a "bigger" player, they are talking about a skilled player that also has size. 

Edited by coastal_caniac

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When you look at size, you can't take an individual player and compare him to a similarly sized player and justify anything. Sure, a smallish player may flourish on another team, but what is the size of the rest of the team? JR took a lot of smallish guys and there is a general need for the Canes to "get bigger". I can certainly see that need factoring into what the Canes do at the draft. Now, if say Skinner was traded and a different type of player brought in, then A player Marner's size makes more sense. I think you have to look at the whole of the lineup, and I think that is what RF is going to do.

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Well on XM today two interesting things.

 

1. Speculation that Marner will go #4 to Toronto, w/ Strome to Arizona.

2. Talk of Ward to Edmonton.

 

Again on my part I'm not trying to predict what they will do, but project who I would like.

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Yes, I heard that as well.  Since the lottery, it seems just about everyone has some combination of Marner-Strome going 3rd and 4th.  Button did his latest mock draft and had us choosing Hanifin.

 

I didn't hear the speculation on Ward to Edmonton, can you share any more details?

Edited by coastal_caniac

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I can't find where I read it but there was some speculation put forth about a possible Ward to Edmonton but I don't think it mentioned a return. The speculation was so vague you couldn't tell if it was based in any rumor or just the writer talking out loud.

 

I have read Edmonton might be willing to move Leon Draisaitl, the Oilers first-round pick last season, Eberle or Yakupov.

 

Carolina was mentioned but only as a rebuilding team that could possible be willing to deal.

 

Its not a big leap though to believe Francis will need to make a decision on Ward this off-season.

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Does Ward have strong ties to home?  If so, Edmonton isn't crazy.

 

But now that Wardo had a good season, we need some return.  No give-aways.  Maybe a salary retention, but we need something back.

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Yes, I heard that as well.  Since the lottery, it seems just about everyone has some combination of Marner-Strome going 3rd and 4th.  Button did his latest mock draft and had us choosing Hanifin.

 

I didn't hear the speculation on Ward to Edmonton, can you share any more details?

 

A caller from Western Canada asked what the Oilers would do in goal. He proposed getting Ward in a trade, but didn't offer the return. The host said that Ward to Edmonton was out there as a rumor last year. It wasn't more than that. I speculate that the Oil might need or want to move one of their forwards for more balance. I forgot that they drafted Nurse, so might be looking especially to upgrade in goal.

 

I can't get the Button video on why he dropped Hanifin in his rankings either. Love to hear more about that.

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Does Ward have strong ties to home?  If so, Edmonton isn't crazy.

 

But now that Wardo had a good season, we need some return.  No give-aways.  Maybe a salary retention, but we need something back.

 

I'm not sure if Ward would look favorable at going to Edmonton.

 

I'm not sure Francis won't decide Ward should stay.

 

With Wards contract expiring next season Francis needs to determine if Ward is in our future. If not I think he will try to move him sooner rather than later.  I would.

 

I think most hockey writers know that too. That will just fuel the speculation.

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