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2015 Off-Season talk

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Reading through the posts its almost always mentioned when talking about E or Ward that they should sign for less money and without a NTC.

 

I can see both signing for less money to stay. Both are realists and know the cap will make it difficult to get the kind of money they are currently making. But if I'm them and willing to commit to helping rebuild this team for less money the one thing I'm not willing to do is give up my no trade.

 

Why would you be willing to commit 2,3 or 5 years for less money to help a struggling team find its legs and take the chance of being traded to another bottom feeder just when the team you committed to was turning it around. Nobody is getting any younger.

 

I think expecting either to give up their no trade clause is unrealistic.

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Just me personally, I might consider a limited NTC. A lot of teams do it by limiting it to "pick 10 or less teams you will block or something like that. I don't know if this exists, but if I were king of contracts, I'd make the NTC incentive based. As long as X games played, and x points per game, NTC in effect. If not, not. Never heard of such a thing of course.

 

I think a NTC should be earned by years of cost effective service. Ward and Staal got them too soon.

 

If they insiste on a NTC it would be a problem because they have one now and it could get sticky. My hope would be that they are ok with either no NTC or very limited. Yes, we want you to stay, but at some point if it is not working, we need to be able to go a different direction.

 

I would have a problem with both here with NTC's. In that case, I'd dry to trade them.

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Now there's a thought!! Just reading a discussion on hockey buzz about the expandability of LA King's Justin Williams in their cap strapped budget next year. What are thoughts on reacquiring our old #14? He's a right winger that EStaal knows very well, and although getting along in age, brings one aspect to the game that many of our guys lack, ability to get in front the net.

 

I know many have soured to the thought of recycling, but could this be an exception? Hmmmmm

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Now there's a thought!! Just reading a discussion on hockey buzz about the expandability of LA King's Justin Williams in their cap strapped budget next year. What are thoughts on reacquiring our old #14? He's a right winger that EStaal knows very well, and although getting along in age, brings one aspect to the game that many of our guys lack, ability to get in front the net.

 

I know many have soured to the thought of recycling, but could this be an exception? Hmmmmm

 

Only on short term (1 yr), bargain contract.

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Only on short term (1 yr), bargain contract.

I'm fine with bringing JWilly back (big time - never wanted to give him up), but yes, short-term only.

 

Reading through the posts its almost always mentioned when talking about E or Ward that they should sign for less money and without a NTC.

 

I can see both signing for less money to stay. Both are realists and know the cap will make it difficult to get the kind of money they are currently making. But if I'm them and willing to commit to helping rebuild this team for less money the one thing I'm not willing to do is give up my no trade.

 

Why would you be willing to commit 2,3 or 5 years for less money to help a struggling team find its legs and take the chance of being traded to another bottom feeder just when the team you committed to was turning it around. Nobody is getting any younger.

 

I think expecting either to give up their no trade clause is unrealistic.

If we were talking about two veteran players with quality resumes that we acquired elsewhere I might agree, but these are guys we've developed and who have been sucking at this franchise's teat since turning pro. On top of that, they've had 10 years of job security and crazy-good pay. If this franchise is struggling, these players surely have some accountability for that - indirectly, b/c their payroll hits and NTCs have limited our options, and directly because they've been on the ice throughout those struggles.

 

It's time to cut the cord, and for them to give something back (if they truly want to stay and be part of the resurgence) by removing those indirect "hits" to our bargaining freedom. Their best assurance of not being traded is playing up to their abilities. Add some performance incentives with bonuses if the incentives are met? Sure. But IMO, they've had their NTCs - and we've had our hands tied by them - long enough. 

Edited by top-shelf-1

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Yesterday, I played golf with a guy from Raleigh, and he said he knew some season ticket holders that were not renewing. We have not been to a game for several years, and don't see myself investing time and money unless there is a big commitment to improving this team, soon. I certainly don't have to remind anyone about the lack of playoff participation. I consider myself a loyal fan, but I am losing interest. That being said, I feel like they need to draft a kid that can contribute almost immediately. If they don't make the playoffs soon, this team will be gone. Karmanos already screwed one town, and I don't think he will hesitate to do it again. Having Don Wadell on board is not a good sign. Thrasher fans still say poor management was the reason their team failed. With the leadersip on this team getting older, they need success soon.

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I'm fine with bringing JWilly back (big time - never wanted to give him up), but yes, short-term only.

 

If we were talking about two veteran players with quality resumes that we acquired elsewhere I might agree, but these are guys we've developed and who have been sucking at this franchise's teat since turning pro. On top of that, they've had 10 years of job security and crazy-good pay. If this franchise is struggling, these players surely have some accountability for that - indirectly, b/c their payroll hits and NTCs have limited our options, and directly because they've been on the ice throughout those struggles.

 

It's time to cut the cord, and for them to give something back (if they truly want to stay and be part of the resurgence) by removing those indirect "hits" to our bargaining freedom. Their best assurance of not being traded is playing up to their abilities. Add some performance incentives with bonuses if the incentives are met? Sure. But IMO, they've had their NTCs - and we've had our hands tied by them - long enough. 

 

We may well cut the cord. That is something Francis will need to decide. At this point it appears he has made a decision to attempt to re-sign Staal. My comment was just pointing out that if I'm in E's position I would want to keep a no trade clause. E has made comments he wants to be back in the playoffs. A NTC would give him the opportunity to reject being traded to another playoff challenged team.

 

His expiring contract is yesterdays news IMO. All that matters moving forward is the decision to rebuild around Staal or not. The contract should be more inline with his FA value and length should probable be no more than 3-5 years. But that is between Francis and Staal's agent.

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I would go 3 years max with E. If he doesn't like it, trade him while he still has value. His numbers don't reflect his salary, and a lot of people on this forum question his leadership. He seems like a really good guy, but he needs to produce. Guys making his kind of money either need to make other guys better, or else need to put up big individual numbers. It seems like the talk has always been about getting guys to make E better rather the other way.

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Yesterday, I played golf with a guy from Raleigh, and he said he knew some season ticket holders that were not renewing. We have not been to a game for several years, and don't see myself investing time and money unless there is a big commitment to improving this team, soon. I certainly don't have to remind anyone about the lack of playoff participation. I consider myself a loyal fan, but I am losing interest. That being said, I feel like they need to draft a kid that can contribute almost immediately. If they don't make the playoffs soon, this team will be gone. Karmanos already screwed one town, and I don't think he will hesitate to do it again. Having Don Wadell on board is not a good sign. Thrasher fans still say poor management was the reason their team failed. With the leadersip on this team getting older, they need success soon.

 

 

I disagree.  At #5 you draft the BPA available and not one that can fill an immediate need.  We will not see success for another 2 years I say.  Once Ward and Eric's contracts are gone/restructured.  The immediate need right now is to rebuild the blue line.  This trumps any other needs (even scoring).  For years we have seen a total inept / lackluster blue line.  Once Fluery, McKeown, and maybe Murphy start to develop into NHL players we will see success.  Until then we have maybe 1 or 2 bad seasons ahead of us.

 

I know it sucks.  But JR really screwed this team not PK.  PK has shown that he is totally willing to open up the purse when the time is right and fork out the money.  Semin and Jordan Staal are prime examples of just that.  If anyone is to blame it is JR.  From the load contracts with NTCs, to giving loads of money tp guys like Skinner and Faulk so early, and to throwing away draft picks as if they were candy as well as making bad trades.  JR takes the fall for this one.  Ownership is fine.

 

Disagree about JR?  Just look at what happened in 1 year to the Penguins.  From top of the NHL one year to bubble team the next.  JR screwed that team up badly in 1 year.  Our team had over a decade with JR running the show.  No wonder we sucked so badly.  The sad thing is we saw good coaches get fired from Lavi to Maurice.  Look at what Maurice did this year with the Jets and look at how many teams Lavi takes his teams to the playoffs.  All along it was JR and not ownership or the coaching.

Edited by bluedevil58

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I agree that the hole has been dug by JR, but this team needs to see success soon. It has already been years since the last playoffs. People have been saying the number of opposing fans are increasing. Sometimes the fans reactions seem like the Canes are playing a road game at home. In the thread about season ticket renewal, some long time sth said they are not renewing. The fan base is declining. I think the turn around needs to be quick in order to strengthen the future of the team. JR may have put this team in a bind, but now it is Ronnie's job to get it out.

Edited by caniac6

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I am more focused on the draft right now than UFA's but I will go out and say this. Sekera was lost to pick and prospect. The return is distant and shakey. The pick isn't even until next year and likely a 50-50 proposition to even have a decent NHL career let alone ever be as good as Sekera (depending on the year LA has next year and our draft position). Even if the pick developes into a Sekera level player it won't be for 4 more years. The prospect is at LEAST 2 years away and may never be a regular NHL player.

 

There are very very few Ekblads and I don't think Hanifin is one. Even if we pick D, they will likely be a couple years from really being close to what Sekera was.

 

This is not to criticize the Sekera deal. It had to be made. And in the long run the reture could be very nice. But there must be an immediate follow up move, or it will be a big problem in the next few years. Francis has admitted this, but must execute.

 

Replacing Sekera this offseason just gets us back to even, not better.

 

If we "replace" Sekera in a trade, we must by definition subtract something from the balance (forward or goalie), which then needs to be replaced.

 

On net, Francis must replace Sekera in free agency or the team will take a step back. The cleanest thing would be to sign a very good UFA defenseman, ideally one of the top guys out there. However, if we can sign a top forward, that could free up a forward for a "forward for defense" trade.

 

So, for this team to have any shot at being competitive next year, I think Francis must sign at least one prime UFA.

 

I think this team cannot afford another "evaluation" year. We have to either be competitive or go all in on the rebuild. If we keep E and Ward we MUST be competitive. I guess we could do the give it a shot unit Thanksgiving thing, and blow it up then, but I see two problems with that. 1. Fan interest with another dud season that was not an obvious rebuild year. 2. We are mediocre. We are barely in the playoff line or barely out. Now what?

 

Either way one prime UFA would not hurt anything.

Edited by remkin

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The whole "building it for the long term" sounds great, but the drought has been long, and the building is not healthy. It is easy to say "Fine with me if the Detroit fans pay Eric's salary by buying tickets". But it's kind of simliar to Waddel's claim that cheap tickets ultimately devalue the product. So does having your building full of rabid enemy fans.

 

It may be better than an empty building, but in the way that a kick in the leg is better than a kick in the groin.

 

Future fans go to a game and the opponent scores and the cheer is defening? Not fun. Think I'll watch at home. The progression, fewer Canes fans want to go to games.

 

The cure is a winning product over time.

 

So, can this location and fan base take one more bad year? I think yes, BUT. But not one more "hold on" bad year. It has to be a rebuild bad year. If Francis trades E and Skinner and Ward say, and gets back solid pieces and more first rounders, and cuts Semin loose. And picks up a UFA that can stay the course and fit into the long term plans, we get an elite player at #5,  then the fan base can clearly see we are building something.

 

Even if we are bad this year, if we compete, and get another good pick next year and LA's and maybe up to 2 more first rounders? We could have 3-4 first round picks next year. With Linholm and Rask improving...

 

By 2016-17 Fleury is ready, Hanifin or Marner are ready, McKeown is ready, Murphy is there or traded, Rask and Linholm are full time studs as is Faulk, J is still here. Even Nedeljkovic, might be ready for action in goal by then. Then there will be the pieces and UFA's Francis picks up. Then maybe a McGinn..

 

And finally there will be the haul of that draft of elite prospects with 3-5 first round picks (we have 2 now), and two third rounders. The cabinet will be full of guys ready to push way up over the next few years.

 

 

If we go the slow fade but hope route and resign Eric and Cam, and even (say it aint so) give Semin one last gasp, then fine, but that is why there can not only not be NTC's, but ideally guys give up their current NTC's or agree to waive because IF that plan does not work? If we are again out of it by Thanksgiving? We HAVE to blow it up and do so definitively. Francis has to have that option.

 

To me Francis has to say to Eric. "If you want to take one more shot at it, we need to have an agreement that if it is not happening by Thanksgiving, you waive the NTC and give me options". Same w/ Ward.

 

I could even see a deal where Eric and Cam waive the NTC for this year, but regain limited NTC's in future contracts. So, show us this year and we'll repay it next year.

 

We cannot have a replay of this year. If we are going to be this bad it has to clearly be medicine for a visible better future.

Edited by remkin

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The decisions on E. Staal and Cam need to be made now and before camp starts IMO.  They need to be signed or dealt.

 

Going into next season without them signed puts Ronnie in a very dangerous place.  If the team is out of it by Thanksgiving there is likely a good chance another slow start by the two players are a reason why, and their trade value is diminished.

 

The team being a borderline playoff contender is the nightmare scenario.  If that happens they can't be dealt due to hopes of getting in the playoffs.  If the team then misses again that would be a disaster.  They could then walk after the season with nothing in return.

Edited by Manwolf

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Cammer lost a lot of 2-1 games, i believe, if we look back..I know we had Sekera, and yes, TiimG, but Cam saved our  bacon a lot...I dont want to see him go,.. I am leaning towards  a Skinner for  top 4 dman... but still on the fence.. i guess.. :)

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Ive been as critical of Cam as anyone, but at least he earned his pay or close to it this year.. Semin, Skinner, E.or J. Staal did not come close and should be on their way out of here...imo... this core for last few years are always full of injuries, excuses, new coaches and always the same results... Time to move on and find another core, no more wait and see, no more hope they find their game etc.... 

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There are two ways this team, given what we have to work with, is getting a #1 or 2 Dman in the off-season: Buying him, or trading a marquee player for him. 

 

Buying out Semin gives us the cash to go out and get him.

 

Trading E for Myers or Cam for a similarly-skilled guy, or perhaps Skinner PLUS a Gerbe *might* bring him back.

 

I'm as disappointed in Skinner's year as everyone else, but someone who is saying we trade him straight-up for a #1 or 2 D-man needs to explain to me how, if I'm the GM of the other team in this D-starved league, I justify trading a top-2 D-man even up for what, in Skinner, is currently seen league-wide as damaged goods.

 

Now, if Skins has an injury-free NEXT year and produces like he has when at his best, maybe that trade is more realistic. Maaaaybe. But we need a top D-man right now - and that, as Rem points out, is just to be where we were in the season just ended. 

 

SuperDave called it months ago: Semin's buy-out is the only rational thing to do at this point. Coupled with sounding out E and Cam on their futures here, I don't expect much other action involving roster players this off-season.

Edited by top-shelf-1

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Well, i think its a  mistake to trade Cam.. unless he wants to go... JMO

I agree. I want us to keep him at least for the coming year, b/c Khudo isn't ready. I was just pointing out the players I think would bring us back the top Dman we want.

 

IMO a player who had 2 30 goals seasons before the age of 22 is going to fetch a good return...

If he hadn't been concussed three times and not produced much since the latest one, yes. Sadly, though, that's the reality for Skinner right now. Any GM who isn't worried about it is probably not working for an NHL team.

 

Any team looking to move a top D man for a top forward is going to want some assurance that forward will produce for them - the same way we'd want a guy coming back who we are confident can fill our need. If I'm that other GM, I'm concerned with Skinner's prognosis enough that I'm trying to get Rask and Gerbe or Lindy and Gerbe before Skinner and Gerbe.

 

If the other team is not moving the Dman to get a top forward, they are doing it to dump salary. At $6 million, Skinner is at the top end of the pay scale for D-men in this league, so he's not going to be saving the receiving team one cent.

 

Proposing trades is easy until the proposal is looked at from the trading partner's POV. When that happens, people suddenly realize why so few trades actually happen.

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Deep Thoughts, by Remkin

 

Yes that was one of my better ones. But I guess I'm saying that if they build it we will come. Is that another one?

 

Heres another real Deep Thought by Jack Handy:

 

If you're in a war, instead of throwing a hand grenade at the enemy, throw one of those small pumpkins. Maybe it'll make everyone think how stupid war is, and while they are thinking, you can throw a real grenade at them.

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