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remkin

Rumors and Trade Deadline Talk

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I don't think I weighed in on Murray. I don't think I will. I was honestly just curious if a deal to get a top D-man was available would you give up the number 5 spot. The D-man is really each individuals choice, it doesn't matter in the hypothetical who it is or even if such a deal could ever happen. All that matters is if there was such a deal on the table would you give up the pick.

 

From what I'm seeing some of us would pull the trigger, some of us would be willing to consider and some of us would be reluctant to give up the pick under almost all circumstances. I understand your apparent disdain over such a general scenario but I found the replies enlightening. It was only a "what if" exercise and something to chat about. There where no wrong answers in my mind.

 

My feelings are that if such a deal existed for a top D-man who could be part of the team for years, I would do it. If your filling a team need and getting such a player you aren't giving up the future and its worth the shot.

 

However I would be cautious and even reluctant to give up the 5 pick unless I believed the player on the table did fit my criteria. I would be prepared to walk away from the deal unless it made sense to me as a GM.

 

Luckily for me and the Caniac Nation I'm not the GM and it would be Francis pulling the trigger or nixing the deal.

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And I still beg the question, which has yet to be answered, why would COLUMBUS do that? 

 

If Murray's injuries aren't a concern, and he's all you-OBXer claim him to be, then why would Columbus be willing to part with him?  All I'm hearing is why the Canes would\should consider it.

 

I understand we are talking in a hypothetical world, but even then trades take two willing partners, and should be somewhat realistic. 

 

But, I admit, I'm biased to begin with when it comes to giving up draft picks, so I'm probably not fully recognizing the "hypothetical" part of all this.

 

First off, don't get me wrong, I'm not questioning your "no" opinion.  I'm not even saying I'd make that hypothetical trade (if it were even available).  I was just surprised that you seemed to equate Ryan Murray and Ryan Murphy.

 

Hypothetically, "a" Columbus might make that trade if they were deep on defense and felt strongly enough that Marner was going to be the next Patrick Kane or Strome was going to be another John Tavarese or Ryan Kesler.  Hey,  I get your aversion to the hypothetical.  I was just searching for something that might be reasonably plausible in the context of OBs original quesiton. 

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This whole discussion is just like a poll that's full of constraints and hypotheticals that doesn't make any sense to begin with, and expects folks to respond anyway. 

 

In my opinion, of course, as I'm not trying to hurt anybody's feelings.

 

I quit.

Edited by coastal_caniac

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This whole discussion is just like a poll that's full of constraints and hypotheticals that doesn't make any sense to begin with, and expects folks to respond anyway.  In my opinion, of course.

 

I quit.

 

You're right, it is full of hypotheticals and I can understand those not wanting to play.  I don't know about expectations for everyone to respond, though. I think it's there for those that are bored enough that they want to play "what if" until something more concrete develops on the Hurricane front . . .   

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Well, the good thing is it won't be long before the concrete stuff is here to talk about.... ;)

 

I'm just as bored and starved for info as the next guy.

Edited by coastal_caniac

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Once the Cup is over all the media attention will switch over to UFAs and the draft. At least we'll have more material to ingest (for whatever that's worth) . . . 

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Saw this in the twitterverse:

 

"The Hockey Chat ‏@TheHockeyChat  56m

Multiple radio stations in Toronto are reporting that the Leafs are trying to acquire the Hurricanes 5th overall draft pick #NHL"

 

What could they possibly give us that would make this appealing to Francis and changes his plans from the build through the draft philosophy to the JR win now and mortgage the future?

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Saw this in the twitterverse:

 

"The Hockey Chat ‏@TheHockeyChat  56m

Multiple radio stations in Toronto are reporting that the Leafs are trying to acquire the Hurricanes 5th overall draft pick #NHL"

 

What could they possibly give us that would make this appealing to Francis and changes his plans from the build through the draft philosophy to the JR win now and mortgage the future?

The Hockey Chat @TheHockeyChat 1h1 hour ago

REPORT: Leafs trying to acquire 5th ovr pick from Hurricanes + Semin's contract in exchange for a "top" roster player + late first pick #NHL

 

 

Ah...nope.  A thousand times nope.

 

All of the hockey world is supposed to bow down to the greatness of Toronto (and their southern affiliate, the Pittsburgh Penguins) and give them whatever they want.

Edited by super_dave_1

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After reading this, why are Leaf fans so dense?

 

Yes, Leaf fans can argue all day long that JVR or Kessel is likely worth a #5 pick, ignoring the situation the Canes are in (which is similar to the Leafs).   One or two roster players aren't likely to make us immediately competitive, because the Canes, like the Leafs need just about everything.  Maybe a team closer to competing or in win-now mode (those holding later first round picks) look at deals like this.   It just doesn't make sense for Carolina.

 

Our defense is Faulk and bottom pairing guys.  Until we fix this things aren't likely to change much.

 

We are a budget team, and giving up ELC terms from the 5th overall pick for a couple of roster players doesn't make long-term financial sense, particularly in a draft like this one.  We are a budget team that doesn't spend to the cap.

 

A lot of our core are UFA's could be gone after this year.  Why trade for the now when those guys might not even be here?

 

Francis has preached we will be building the team through the draft and development of players.  Why don't people believe that? 

 

A deal like this has to start with Reilly or Nylander.  Otherwise there isn't much to speculate on.

 

But at least there are names involved.....


 

Edited by coastal_caniac

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After reading this, why are Leaf fans so dense?

 

Yes, Leaf fans can argue all day long that JVR or Kessel is likely worth a #5 pick, ignoring the situation the Canes are in (which is similar to the Leafs).   One or two roster players aren't likely to make us immediately competitive, because the Canes, like the Leafs need just about everything.  Maybe a team closer to competing or in win-now mode (those holding later first round picks) look at deals like this.   It just doesn't make sense for Carolina.

 

Our defense is Faulk and bottom pairing guys.  Until we fix this things aren't likely to change much.

 

We are a budget team, and giving up ELC terms from the 5th overall pick for a couple of roster players doesn't make long-term financial sense, particularly in a draft like this one.  We are a budget team that doesn't spend to the cap.

 

A lot of our core are UFA's after this year.  Why trade for the now when those guys might not even be here?

 

Francis has preached we will be building the team through the draft.  Why don't people believe that? 

 

A deal like this has to start with Reilly or Nylander.  Otherwise there isn't much to speculate on.

 

 

Seems like many Leafs fans value their players at their all time peak, ignoring everything else. Sorry, but this season really did happen for Kessel.   :coverears:

 

Coastal, you beat me to the punch.  If the Leafs were offering up Reilly, their 24th OA pick, and taking on Semin's contract, I don't see how we wouldn't consider that. But here I'm in agreement with your earlier sentiment; that's not realistically going to happen.

 

edit: here's one way to think about the value of unloading Semin's contract. That might enable us to re-sign Sekera for a couple of years (with $ leftover) while our youngsters develop. 

Edited by LakeLivin

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Well like it or not, this rumor just won't die. This is basically a version of the deal Eklund claimed to have inside knowledge of which was proposed as:

 

Kessel, Kadri, and a 3rd rounder for Semin (full contract) and the 5th pick.

 

We debated this quite a bit back in early May.

 

And before I put the devil's advocate postiion just let me:

 

:couch: :couch: :couch: :couch:

 

I am not advocating for the proposed deal. But here's another way of looking at it.

 

Be advised, I realize that this is not exactly the vision some had for the vague plan Francis laid out about buidling for the future. But again, devil's advocate, he did not say explicitly "through the draft" for every move. He even said he'd consider all options for draft picks including trading them. Just like he never stressed size the way some think (he said "all else equal" and put speed ahead of size), what he said is that he wants to build a team that can compete for the cup for many years.

 

Kessel is 27, right in his prime and should be productive for at least 8 more years.

Kadri is 24

 

There is also the fact that GMRF works for PK, who is probably getting sick of an empty buidling that another non competitive year would just make worse.

 

So, again:

 

:couch: :couch: :couch:

 

I am not as quick to dismiss the deal.

 

GMRF and Peters and PK are living under the yoke of that deal JR gave Semin. I think it is killing them.  If he comes back and is even slightly better than last year (or worse) that is a massive problem. Toronto? They can just buy him out. Money is not an issue. And they gain cap space by offloading Kessel.

 

Kessel has a crazy deal, but it is front loaded. For the next three years lined up with Semin's deal it costs us $3 million, $2 million and $2 million more in salary. The last two years Kessel is a bargain at $7 mill.

 

So we get instant offense. A ppg player.

 

Then we get Kadri. A Toronto problem child, but with serious upside, and if he grows up? There's a 65 point player in there. He's already put up 50, and three years ago in the shortened season he put up .92 ppg and was #2 on the team in plus minus. He was the #7 overall pick.

 

My guess is that this would open the door for a Skinner and Nash for Defense trade, and maybe even picking up a UFA dman.

 

If not, slide Skinner into that top 9, and assume we get at least one UFA dman.

 

E. J. Kessel

Lindholm-Kadri-Nestrasil

Gerbe- Rask- UFA

Malone-McClemment-Dwyer

 

That top 6 could be good for a LOT of offense. (Recall we were #27 in the league last year. Rember all those 1 goal losses?).

AND what effect removing the listless Russian might have? Say what you will about Kessel's defensive softness, he is a ppg player day one.

 

Faulk-UFA

Traded for guy-Hainsey

Murphy-Bellemore

 

Ward/Khudobin

 

If we plugged the right defensman into the UFA and traded slots, we could be solid, if unspectacular on D, very solid in goal, and instantly competive up front. And free of Semin.

 

Now factor in some improvement from the Staals and Sknner if we keep him, and incremental progress from Rask, and Kadri and Nestrasil and a solid move up from Lihdholm?

 

That could be a playoff team next year. And outside of E, and Hainsey it is a pretty young team with Fleury and other prospects en route.

 

Further this year's second rounder is like a typical year late first rounder and we still get that pick.

 

 

Again, I'm not saying we do this deal. But it is not crazy. What if we could get the pot sweetened some? Next years' second rounder instead of the third rounder? It'll likely be a high pick, plus we have two first rounders next year.

 

I still say we walk up and pick from Stomarnifin, but that will likely mean another struggle year. So I can see apeal in this type of deal.

 

OKay. Have at me. :boarding:

Edited by remkin

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I'd counter with Morgan Rielly and the #24 for Semin and #5.  Then, when that was refused, I'd hang up and go about the business of picking who is left of Strome-Marner-Hanifin.

Edited by coastal_caniac

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Nope, a 1000x nope! I'm tired of living "on a wing and a prayer", projecting what a player will do in a fantasy world, only to have that interrupted by injury, hockey gods or whatever! How does that saying go, "better to live with the devil you know, than the one you don't".  Seems to me that there are at least 2 unknowns to this proposed deal, Kessel's health despite his scoring acumen, and Kadri's mental status. At least with Semin we (coaches, etc) know the quirks. Understand the enigma, NO, but know the quirks.

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If it weren't for Semin's atrocious contract, this rumor would never even get floated. 

 

If Kessel and Kadri are so great, why would Toronto be looking to dump them?  Since we are basically in the same place as Toronto, why would we be willing to take them off their hands?  Bite the bullet and buy out Semin.  Teams do this all the time.  Yes, some money will be on the books for a few years, but the Canes aren't a cap team anyway.  There is $7M to be saved by buying him out (and $5M in immediate cap relief to sign a defenseman to be named later).

 

This proposal makes no sense.

Edited by super_dave_1

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If it weren't for Semin's atrocious contract, this rumor would never even get floated. 

 

If Kessel and Kadri are so great, why would Toronto be looking to dump them?  Since we are basically in the same place as Toronto, why would we be willing to take them off their hands?  Bite the bullet and buy out Semin.  Teams do this all the time.  Yes, some money will be on the books for a few years, but the Canes aren't a cap team anyway.  There is $7M to be saved by buying him out (and $5M in immediate cap relief to sign a defenseman to be named later).

 

This proposal makes no sense.

 

It only makes sense...if they believe your GM and owner are idiots and can be fleeced. I believe our GM is not, but...

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Any deal involving Semin is going to cost the Canes in assets. I'd rather see him on the ice picking his nose for 3 more years than make another "JR quick fix" deal that hurts the organization.

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Nope, a 1000x nope! I'm tired of living "on a wing and a prayer", projecting what a player will do in a fantasy world, only to have that interrupted by injury, hockey gods or whatever! How does that saying go, "better to live with the devil you know, than the one you don't".  Seems to me that there are at least 2 unknowns to this proposed deal, Kessel's health despite his scoring acumen, and Kadri's mental status. At least with Semin we (coaches, etc) know the quirks. Understand the enigma, NO, but know the quirks.

 

Can't agree on this point.

 

Kessel >>>>>Semin. Kessel gets a lot of bad press. He almost never misses a game, and brings it every night at least offensively. Semin doesn't even do that. Every player is a projection, including the draft pick.

 

Kessel does not play defense. That's why I wonder about a Skinner trade with it.

 

My problem with the deal is passing on a Stromarnifin which I think is a special group. But if the brain trust is considering not picking one of those guys....

Edited by remkin

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If it weren't for Semin's atrocious contract, this rumor would never even get floated. 

 

 

 

This is why it has some merit though. It is hard to factor in the removal of a negative. But buying Semin out is a bad option and if Semin comes back and gets away with more floating to nowhere while burning through $7 million/year and sapping the collective will of the guys around him who can clearly see that accountability is just a fancy word, then that is a factor to consider.

 

The only thing that would make this proposal absurd IMHO is if Semin came back and played like the guy we had in the lock out year. But talk about projecting a rosey picture.

 

I do still wonder this. If we are having this discussion, and there is a lot of smoke to suggest a fire, then maybe we can get them to sweeten the deal.

Edited by remkin

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http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Mike-Augello/Rumor-De-Jour--Leafs-Trying-To-Make-Major-Move-Up-At-The-Draft/120/69028

 

RF doesn't need to do anything.  Seems if buzz is founded that Leafs want the pick, not Canes want to deal it.  They can always buy out Semin, or not.

 

Then there is JR who wants in on the 1st round.  RF holds the stronger hand in all of this speculation.

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But buying Semin out is a bad option

Why?

Would you rather involve him in a trade and get less in return? That's what you are advocating.

Buying him out would save enough the next 3 years to say...sign a guy like Sekera. Still think it would be a bad option?

Edited by super_dave_1

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Ok rem, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this, but not too sure which "point" you are disagreeing with.

 

Now maybe there was a misstatement as to Kessel's  health, but to me a poorly conditioned,OVERWEIGHT player is just as ill as an oft injured one.

 

Now, if Kessel or Kadri were so invaluable, why is there so frequent attempt to trade them? Sure if Kessel scores prolifically, he is an asset, but his defensive acumen leaves much to be desired. On a team lacking on defense, does that negate, to some degree, his scoring element? Even his salary, less than Semin's for sure but several years longer? Do we then take on one albatross to rid ourselves of another?

 

Or possible you disagree that Kadri seems to be having his own problems establishing his role? Getting him away front the Toronto fishbowl MIGHT alter that, but is that risk less than that with a draftee who can be molded more easily in a nurturing environment?

 

So, again I ask, is taking on 2 problems to rid ourselves of 1 warrant a #5 pick in a year, where you yourself have stated this player could be a #1 in other years?

 

Of course, we're not even touching on the element of cost savings between a draft pick vs 2 established players.

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Buying out Semin is an option and one that has to be considered but if you can clear his salary I think your better off.

 

You save approximately $7 million overall in a buyout but still have to pay him about $14 million and the payout is with you for 6 years. You also retain a cap hit although that hasn't been a factor with us for a few years.

 

If you trade him outright you save $21 million in 3 years. Without knowing what the return in the trade is it would be difficult to say if it would be worth trading Semin along with the 5 pick. But it would be worth something depending on return.

 

Question- Have Kessel or Kadri actually been named as the trade target in the speculation? I haven't seen that.

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Giving up the 5th pick in this years draft to get rid of Semin's contract is IMO, a pretty indefensible position to hang your hat on, and make the basis of a trade proposal.  It's kind of like sawing the limb off on the wrong end.

 

That's basically what the TML media, well one guy, is speculating.

 

Ron Francis Said No, when Calgary came knocking at the door last year and offered to take Ward's contract for the 7th overall, at a time when it was made public the Canes were shopping Ward.

 

He also said in response to the Calgary rumors that he would not be trading assets to move salary.

 

Actually RF has said a lot of stuff, and it's up to the consumer to decide which part of his public statements speak to how he will actually implement his "vague" plan for moving past King JR.

 

For me, all these trade rumor discussions really come down to PK's untimely comments about being patient, and two divergent opinions.  Some fans look to the quick fix, which I understand, others are willing to take the chance the Canes can find consistency in drafting and player development.

 

I guess it's pretty obvious what side of that fence I fall on.

Edited by coastal_caniac

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I agree giving up our 5 spot just to unload Semin is a fools move. To give up that pick this year we would really need to get a return we  wanted. I will say if Semin was an add on it wouldn't break my heart.

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So, again I ask, is taking on 2 problems to rid ourselves of 1 warrant a #5 pick in a year, where you yourself have stated this player could be a #1 in other years?

 

Of course, we're not even touching on the element of cost savings between a draft pick vs 2 established players.

These two points:

1. Right now is not the time to hope someone else's problem will snap out of it.  If Kessel folded, we would be cap hurt till 2022.

2.  925,000 for three years(rookie max contract) is easier to swallow than $8million for 7 years.  it also gives us room to round out the team with smart UFA signings.

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