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remkin

Rumors and Trade Deadline Talk

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Ok rem, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this, but not too sure which "point" you are disagreeing with.

 

Now maybe there was a misstatement as to Kessel's  health, but to me a poorly conditioned,OVERWEIGHT player is just as ill as an oft injured one.

 

Now, if Kessel or Kadri were so invaluable, why is there so frequent attempt to trade them? Sure if Kessel scores prolifically, he is an asset, but his defensive acumen leaves much to be desired. On a team lacking on defense, does that negate, to some degree, his scoring element? Even his salary, less than Semin's for sure but several years longer? Do we then take on one albatross to rid ourselves of another?

 

Or possible you disagree that Kadri seems to be having his own problems establishing his role? Getting him away front the Toronto fishbowl MIGHT alter that, but is that risk less than that with a draftee who can be molded more easily in a nurturing environment?

 

So, again I ask, is taking on 2 problems to rid ourselves of 1 warrant a #5 pick in a year, where you yourself have stated this player could be a #1 in other years?

 

Of course, we're not even touching on the element of cost savings between a draft pick vs 2 established players.

 

Again, I'm just providing some rationale for the trade. 99% are on the "this is pure insanity" side of the equation.

 

Kessel is out of shape may be true. I don't know. But the guy played every single game of all of the last 5 seasons. Every game. Read that again: that is 376 consecutive games. Now saying he "could" be injury prone at some point? Really? Compared to the concussion prone Skinner (who could be trade bait if we picked up Kessel and is every bit as soft and plays even less defense)?

 

He also puts up points. He had a down year last year w/ 25 goals and 65 points on an abysmal team? Let's see. How many players on our team would have killed for that down year? Oh I don't know....ALL of them. Kessel's off, "out of shape" year would have been #1 on our team by 11 points. Imagine what a change of scenery might provide.

 

I'm not saying do it, but there are legitimate reasons to consider it, especially if we could get the pot sweetened.

 

 

Edit: removed the line about if they're not good why would they trade him, it was too harsh. Can see the remnants in SDs post if you want.

Edited by remkin

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Giving up the 5th pick in this years draft to get rid of Semin's contract is IMO, a pretty indefensible position to hang your hat on, and make the basis of a trade proposal.  It's kind of like sawing the limb off on the wrong end.

 

That's basically what the TML media, well one guy, is speculating.

 

Ron Francis Said No, when Calgary came knocking at the door last year and offered to take Ward's contract for the 7th overall, at a time when it was made public the Canes were shopping Ward.

 

He also said in response to the Calgary rumors that he would not be trading assets to move salary.

 

Actually RF has said a lot of stuff, and it's up to the consumer to decide which part of his public statements speak to how he will actually implement his "vague" plan for moving past King JR.

 

For me, all these trade rumor discussions really come down to PK's untimely comments about being patient, and two divergent opinions.  Some fans look to the quick fix, which I understand, others are willing to take the chance the Canes can find consistency in drafting and player development.

 

I guess it's pretty obvious what side of that fence I fall on.

 

These are really fair points. RF has left room in his language and we can interpret it differently. I'm just saying that in response to this speicfic rumor which has flared twice now (I know, I know, Eklund: OBXer it was Eklund that suggested the deal would be Kessell and Kadri and a third round pick for our 5th overall and Semin), that the deal would not automatically be a betrayal of GMRF's stated goals since both Kessel and especially Kadri (and the pick) are young enough to contribute to winning for years, which is part of the plan. Yes he wants to mainly draft the team, but Kadri was a high draft choice, we get an extra draft pick, and we have two first rounders next year, and if he makes this move I doubt he's done dealing.

 

The deal is not the same as Calgary offering to help us out by taking Cam off our hands in exchange for the #7 pick, because we not only dump Semin's contract and his malaise, but we get Kessel and Kadri, and while these two guys inspire a lot of angst, and quite possibly for good reason, they are serious point producers. Kessel is a star and Kadri could be.

 

Now this would be a risky trade. But not for the reasons I've seen so far. The risk is that these guys end up being team killers in the locker room. Both have some degree of that repuation, and Kadri just plain needs to grow up. The appeal is that we are buying low. No not in terms of the contracts, buy because their team is blowing it up, and jettisoning pieces.

 

I disagree with this.  If he was that great, a team that finished at the bottom of the league wouldn't be doing everything they can do to move him and his contract.  It isn't a straight up hockey trade.  It's solely based on the Canes wanting out of Semin's contract and we would have to take back Kessel to make it happen.

 

You "shallow rhetorical line of thin reasoning" is a little condescending also.

 

I'll cop to the condescention. Don't want to do that. There's enough of that already. But the point is still valid. Trades happen for reasons outside of not wanting to let a good player go. If that were not true there would almost never be anyone on the other side of the trade. I'll admit that teams are not generally trading their superstars, but bottom dwellers ARE the ones who would consder it. "You have to give to get" would be my admitttedly shallow rhetrical rebuttal.

 

You have described why you think the trade is not a hockey trade, which goes beyond the "they wouldn't trade him if he were good" line.

 

But the equation on this trade is tricky. Kessel has blown Semin away on productivity and would project to continue far better than Semin. The salaries are part of the equation, but getting a ppg player for a point per season player (I keeed), is also part of the deal. And Kadri, while having issues, is also a point producer.

 

Toronto wants to go full on rebuild. Their building will be full if they put the Marlies out there every night. They want to tear down the team and start over. Kessel's contract is an issue, and Kessel has been there through some bad times. But that team was on a roll until they collapsed vs the Bruins in game 7. They want out of the bad contract and they want to start over from scratch.

 

But that could provide opportunity. If we didn't have to dump Semin' salary, we would never even be able to consider such a trade. And if Toronto were playing for the cup, and not in blow it up mode, then they probably wouldn't trade their All Star.

 

The idea of picking up two very talented, very high point producing guys that a bottom dweller is giving up on, while jettisoning a guy who seems to have given up period? Has some appeal.

 

I still maintain that we should pick our guy and not do this deal. My main reason is the "where there's smoke there's fire" (another shallow rhetorical bit of reasoning by me) about the character issues for both guys scares me. Also, Kessel's lack of defense. I think you can have a guy like that, but we have a couple already. But I am projecting that GMRF makes the move. IF that happens I would have to believe that he thinks that these guys are basically ok and sees the potential immediate and dramatic bump in our offense and loss of the enigma as overall worth the loss of the #5 pick. Also, maybe he is less sold on the guys availabe at 5.

 

So, I don't do the deal, but don't think it's crazy. And if Francis pulled the trigger on it, I would fall back to in Ron We Trust on the downside issues.

Edited by remkin

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Rem, I think the proposed deal is crazy from a dollars and cents angle.  Canes step up and select a player at 5 that has every chance at being a better player than Kessel and aren't on the hook for $10M a year.  This team can't afford Kessel.  Getting rid of one anchor and throwing out another isn't the answer for this team. 

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Rem, I think the proposed deal is crazy from a dollars and cents angle.  Canes step up and select a player at 5 that has every chance at being a better player than Kessel and aren't on the hook for $10M a year.  This team can't afford Kessel.  Getting rid of one anchor and throwing out another isn't the answer for this team. 

 

Just to continue as the devil's advocate, not a fun postion BTW, we are jettisoning Semin's salary in the process. If we are to assume that Semin is a complete loss, his salary is $7 million/year for three more years. The difference between Semin and Kessel's salary during those three years is not much. Then, after those years pass and we'd have been free of Semin, Kessel's last years are at a much lower rate of $7 million.

 

That said, your point about a guy on an entry deal is a very good one indeed. While it is hard to factor in the loss of the negative, (Semin), it is also hard to remember that having a really good player on an entry deal and then RFA, is a also a somewhat hidden positive.

 

It would be tempting to think that if Kessel and Kadri came in here and benefitted from a change of scenery, they would be instant offense, and both are fairly young also. But a Hanifin, or a Strome, or a Marner, could be our Neidemeyer, or Patrick Kane for many years including those front end cheap years.

 

So, while I present the other side of the deal, I personally still don't do it.

 

If RF "knows" Kessel and Kadri, and really believes that theirs are bad raps and they are basically good eggs, then the deal makes more sense to me than I guess most others, especially if he gets the pot sweetened, but the giving up of the #5 pick in this draft is a huge price to pay.

 

Sure would be nice to be free and clear of Semin though. Watch him come back and play on fire this year.....

Edited by remkin

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As others have pointed out, it is also possible that GMRF is talking about a lot of potential deals with Toronto (they supposedly wanted E too), and is surely talking to a lot of other teams too, but only the Toronto rumor got out. Francis seems to run a very tight ship, but the Toronto media is relentless.

 

At this point, this is the only one we have to kick around in this very slow period for non Chicago/Tampa fans.

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I have no problem believing there is some credibility to this rumor to the limited extent that Toronto wants our number 5 pick. I don't even doubt our asking price is a high end roster player, a 1st round draft choice and a oh by the way the 5 pick comes with Semin attached. I do have a hard time believing Kessel is the player we want back.

 

The one thing, I think, unlike the J deal where J and the Pens held the trump card is at this draft Francis owns the coveted prize. We are just fine picking at 5 so it's the other guy that has to make the deal we want. (I hear a Kenny Rodgers song in the background)

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This isn't even a rumor, it's all speculation, and it's all from one guy in the Toronto media, who the fans consider to be a hack.

 

But everything you hear on the internet is true, so......

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Regardless, your almost making this out to be something that actually has legs. 

 

If you listened to the podcast from this Blundell guy, he admitted he knew nothing about any of the players names that are being thrown around here.  The only player he specifically mentioned as being the basis of the deal was Alex Semin's contract.

 

The only other thing he specifically mentioned was no player 23 or under currently in TML's system could be part of any deal

 

I know it's something to do but it opens other possible discussion topics when everybody is on the same page when discussing the details of a particular rumor. I mean, you could just as easily put JVR as part of this speculation.  He would at least be a much better fit for Peters system.

Edited by coastal_caniac

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Regardless, if you listened to the podcast from this Blundell guy, he admitted he knew nothing about any of the players names that are being thrown around here.  The only player he specifically mentioned as being the basis of the deal was Alex Semin's contract.

 

The only other thing he specifically mentioned was no player 23 or under currently in TML's system could be part of any deal

 

I know it's something to do but at least get the basic facts correct.  I mean, you could just as easily put JVR as part of this speculation.

 

.

 

Isn't that what I just said; I have no problem believing there is some credibility to this rumor to the limited extent that Toronto wants our number 5 pick. Of course everything else is speculation.

 

Further more I never speculated on a player. I said I have a hard time believing Kessel was our target in reply to numerous posts by others speculating on him and others. Thats a fact..

 

and by the way, hack or not, this Blundell guy was the first one who reported Bylsma signing with Toronto while everyone else was reporting he was house hunting in Buffalo.

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Isn't that what I just said; I have no problem believing there is some credibility to this rumor to the limited extent that Toronto wants our number 5 pick. Of course everything else is speculation.

 

Further more I never speculated on a player. I said I have a hard time believing Kessel was our target in reply to numerous posts by others speculating on him and others. Thats a fact..

 

and by the way, hack or not, this Blundell guy was the first one who reported Bylsma signing with Toronto while everyone else was reporting he was house hunting in Buffalo.

 

Don't be so sensitive.  I wasn't responding specifically to you anyway.

 

MinJaBen put a link to some tweets, which most didn't bother to even read based on the general responses over the last few pages, or took the time to find the actual podcast from Blundell and listen to it.  That may or may not have included you, I have no idea.

 

That was the point.  It's fine and often fun to speculate in the dull times, but as least speculate on what Blundell actually put out there.

 

Bylsma was hired by Buffalo BTW. 

Edited by coastal_caniac

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I know it's something to do but at least get the basic facts of what was actually said correct.  I mean, you could just as easily put JVR as part of this speculation.  He would at least be a much better fit for Peters system.

 

 

An earlier post of mine was recently pointed out as having a condescending part, which I think it probably did.  Anyway...

 

My names are from the Eklund rumor from early May. I made that clear a while ago. Yes, it is Eklund, who insisted that this time he really really had the intel, but that is where my names are from.

 

There are two rumors about this now, admittedly both from dubious sources, but enough to kick the tires a bit. All rumors are rumors until they happen anyways. And if it is only slightly better than making up our own trades, it is slightly better.

Edited by remkin

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Don't be so sensitive, geez.

 

I wasn't responding specifically to you anyway.

 

Bylsma was hired by Buffalo. 

 

Of course I know it was Babcock, I made a mistake. 

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An earlier post of mine was recently pointed out as having a condescending part, which I think it probably did.  Anyway...

 

My names are from the Eklund rumor from early May. I made that clear a while ago. Yes, it is Eklund, who insisted that this time he really really had the intel, but that is where my names are from.

 

There are two rumors about this now, admittedly both from dubious sources, but enough to kick the tires a bit. All rumors are rumors until they happen anyways. And if it is only slightly better than making up our own trades, it is slightly better.

 

My statement wasn't intended to be condescending.

 

MinJaBen was the first poster to break the rumor from Blundell.  The discussion went from there. You were the guy who brought up the earlier rumor from Eklund, and took off with that like it was the same deal Blundell is reporting Toronto to be seeking. It isn't, as I pointed out a few posts up.

 

It only occurred to me earlier today that it appears most people didn't fully understand when several of us here commented that the foundation of the rumored deal was Semin's contract, and based upon that, wouldn't be a good basis for a trade proposal FOR THE 5TH OVERALL PICK - NOT that it was a bad idea to MOVE Semin's contract.

 

Here is the podcast with the Blundell speculation, it's down the page a little bit as a video link "Leafs after Canes pick".  Maybe this will help clear up things.

 

http://www.sportsnet.ca/590/dean-blundell-and-company/

 

We could just as easily have been talking about JVR, which as I pointed out, would have been much more interesting, at least to me.

Edited by coastal_caniac

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The 5th overall pick has a lot more value this year than in most.  It's no secret that GMRF and the rest of the sane Canes world wants to get rid of Semin.  These 2 facts are going to drive the rumor train.  Add in the fact that Toronto fans think the other 29 teams in the league are there to build their team, and you get this garbage. 

 

The only way that I consider moving that pick is for the right compensation in return.  Now if it's very close, and GMRF can get somebody to haul off Semin as a deal sweetener, then great.  The deal needs to make sense without Semin involved and just be a bonus, like the car dealer throwing in free undercoating and a tank of gas to get you to sign today instead of sleeping on it.  As the draft nears and hopefully there may be a bidding war, somebody may be willing to throw in the free undercoating.

Edited by super_dave_1

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My statement wasn't condescending, it's a valid point.

 

 

At least get your facts correct.

 

Did that feel condescending at all?

 

The Blundell report:

 

I listened to the report. Toronoto taking Semin is the foundation of the deal, but then we get to pick a player over 23 off the Toronto roster. The first names HE threw out there were Kessel and Kadri. Oddly similar to Ekllund.

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To hopefully clear out the somewhat stale odor I seem to have been the cause of.....

 

The comment I made to Rem was meant to suggest that if one actually had listened to the original Blundell podcast or the reports that followed from some of the other Toronto media outlets (not that it is a problem that you didn't), that you might have taken a different tact on how others, including myself, opined about THIS particular rumor rather than focus back on the Eklund rumor, which we discussed ad nauseum just a few weeks ago. 

 

I also pointed out that a difference in the player make up of the trade might have been interesting to discuss, as Eklund had pretty much laid out everything.

 

My original comment, as has been pointed out, seemed condescending....I hope this isn't. 

Edited by coastal_caniac

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No Rem, it actually it feels more like you are making a point of being a smart *edit* after the fact to further an earlier point. 

 

Speaking of facts, Blundell followed up by saying he didn't know who the roster players were that the Canes would choose, he was speculating, and it could just as easily be other players, and he specifically mentioned JVR or Bozak, which is totally different than the Eklund rumor.

 

From a neutral stand point, you did make a comment that came across as a little rude.  

 

(For Everybody)---Let's keep the mood light people.  The one thing we all have in common is we want the same thing, let's just respect each other and have productive conversations.

 

Now on to this new rumor.  Most of the people posting have been here for years, so we should know that this time of year is pretty dry on the news front.  I check the rumor mills daily, and it's a rarity Carolina's name is mentions, so any news is, well, news.  Having said that, this isn't the 1st or 2nd time we've been linked to Toronto/Kessel/5th pick, and I just got finished going to war with multiple Leafs fans on another board, and I'm kinda done with this rumor.  I'll just say if there were ever an offer for Kessel & Kadri for the 5th overall and taking Semin's contract, i'd at least consider it.  This isn't your typical JR quick fix, it's a 25 and 27yr old who play at a high level.

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Ok, this isn't speculation. I'm playing Canes GM.  If you want to play, feel free to comment (positively or negatively). If you don't like the game, please just ignore.  It's a package deal btw; I don't do the first part if the second isn't available.

 

Semen and #5 to Leafs for Kessel and Gardner.

Kessel to San Jose for #9 plus (maybe their 2nd & 3rd rounders OR 2nd & a big, physical prospect) 

 

#9 overall will get us one of Crouse, Rantanen, Provarov or Werenski. 

 

Use the other picks to draft some of those big, physical athletic kids. 

 

Gardner is a 24yo d-man who was an NHL all-rookie in 2011-12. He has 4 years left on his contract ($4m for 3 years, $3.5m for the 4th).  As a basis for comparison, Montreal just signed 27yo Jeff Petry to a 6 year $33m deal.

 

Take the $3m difference between Semin and Gardner's contracts and use it towards signing another quality d-man (Sekera or Cody Franson?).

 

Our D next season: Faulk, UFA, Gardner, Hainsey, Liles, Murphy.  Add some yutes for depth, either some of our prospects if they're ready for NHL action or cheap FAs like Jordan, Bellemore, etc. (I wish we'd seen more of Hillen before he got hurt). 

 

Still would need to work on the offense, but seems to me that would give us a relatively solid NHL defense for a few years while our prospects develop.

 

Edit: and yeah, if you see whichever of Stromarnifen is available at #5 as a likely franchise centerpiece, you stay at #5. I'll leave that call up to Canes mgmt.  

Edited by LakeLivin

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Have to admit Manwolf...not inspiring. That first paragraph was pretty dang funny though.

 

Just pick Stromarnifnin.

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http://www.torontosun.com/2015/06/01/kessel-a-big-test-for-new-leafs-conditioning-specialist

 

Read 1st 3 paragraphs, especially 1st sentence of 3rd.

 

Can you imagine how this plays out in the years ahead (maybe I should insert an Alex Semin gif).

 

Any takers still out there?

 

Thank you.  You sir, are deserving of a biscuit.

 

Take the pick. 

Edited by coastal_caniac

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