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remkin

Rumors and Trade Deadline Talk

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There is a reason there is no history of trading a high pick in the draft to dump salary.

The team is nowhere near the cap, so unless PK's internal budget is near the cap floor, there's no need to hurt the future to help the present.

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Not sure if the following is appropriate to this topic, but after searching, I've decided that it fits best under the Trade heading.

Sitting here, reading thru talk on the draft(yea, bring it on), free agency composition and trades, the thought came to mind, What factors come into play that make teams "good trading partners"? Most obvious, strengths and weaknesses of 2 prospective partners I would guess have to be somewhat "mirror images", and by that, I mean that the strength of one is the weakness of the other.

Financials certainly play a role. Short and long term goals of the 2 also need consideration, in that I would assume where a team is on the pendulum of playoff play/run at the cup certainly plays into it.

Beyond those, I'm curious what the collective sense of other posters on here think of the importance of personal interrelationships of GM's and/or team owners in these transactions? Along these lines of thought, I believe that our current GM, Ron Francis was a well respected and admired player during his time. If this be true, does this factor into possible trading comradery, or is their's a purely cut-throat business?

Then, to advance that thought one more step, if friendships do come into play, whom might that align us with? I've previously posed a related question regarding our open Checkers coaching situation, where I queried these boards as to someone or ones that Peters might have worked with over the years, whom might then be in line for that position in Charlotte, but got NO response. Am hopeful some of you might indulge this current line of questioning to relieve pre-draft stress!!

Edited by KJUNKANE

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Not sure if the following is appropriate to this topic, but after searching, I've decided that it fits best under the Trade heading.

Sitting here, reading thru talk on the draft(yea, bring it on), free agency composition and trades, the thought came to mind, What factors come into play that make teams "good trading partners"? Most obvious, strengths and weaknesses of 2 prospective partners I would guess have to be somewhat "mirror images", and by that, I mean that the strength of one is the weakness of the other.

Financials certainly play a role. Short and long term goals of the 2 also need consideration, in that I would assume where a team is on the pendulum of playoff play/run at the cup certainly plays into it.

Beyond those, I'm curious what the collective sense of other posters on here think of the importance of personal interrelationships of GM's and/or team owners in these transactions? Along these lines of thought, I believe that our current GM, Ron Francis was a well respected and admired player during his time. If this be true, does this factor into possible trading comradery, or is their's a purely cut-throat business?

Then, to advance that thought one more step, if friendships do come into play, whom might that align us with? I've previously posed a related question regarding our open Checkers coaching situation, where I queried these boards as to someone or ones that Peters might have worked with over the years, whom might then be in line for that position in Charlotte, but got NO response. Am hopeful some of you might indulge this current line of questioning to relieve pre-draft stress!!

I don't know if friendship really enters into this much.  Obviously, if a GM feels he's been screwed over, it might make the avoid trades with that team(Brian Burke and Kevin Lowe comes to mind).  But otherwise, it's what looks like the best deal for the team at that point.

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Here's some speculation (hey, I"ll put my arbitrary speculation up against Eklund's rumors any day :P).:

 

Florida wants to win now and is looking to add scoring. http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=771406

---------------------------------------------------------

GM Dale Tallon said he was open to the possibility of trading the 11th pick for an established scorer if the right deal came along and that conversations with other teams have begun to pick up.

 

The Panthers have a strong nucleus of drafted players on their roster, led by Ekblad, Barkov, center Nick Bjugstad and left wing Jonathan Huberdeau, and more could be on the way next season.

 

"We're very close," Tallon said. "I like the direction we're headed. Our players are excited about it as well. We're not far off. Really excited about our future. I think our core is going to be really solid. A lot of things have to come into play, but I like the direction we're headed in and I feel we could be a very competitive team next year. We want to be with those two teams represented in the [stanley Cup] Final. We want to play that type of hockey and we want to play with that high degree of skill and pace. That's our goal, and I think we're getting there."

 

"I like to think outside the box, so you never know what we're going to do," Tallon said. "It's a fun part of the job, draft day, the things that can and will go on that you might not have control over. But I like to think outside the box and I like to take some risk, so it'll be interesting to see what happens. I like to be active at that table if we have to make deals or not. That's the fun part for me. The draft is an exciting time."

--------------------------------------------------------

 

The Panthers have a deep pool of D prospects, including Ian McCoshen. McCoshen a sophomore at BC last season is 6'3" 207lbs and will turn 20 in Aug.  He was drafted 31st OA in 2013 and is rated as 7.5/10 in skill with a "B" chance of success by Hockey's Future http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospects/ian-mccoshen/in.

 

IF we're looking to move Skinner, Florida may be an ideal partner.  Skinner for #11 overall (gets us one of the "tier 3" prospects (Rantanen, Barzal, Zacha, Werenski, Provorov, or Crouse) plus McCoshen plus ?

 

I'd hate for us to undervalue Skinner. I think we tend to forget that he just turned 23 years old.  The concussions are a bit worrisome, but I expect Skinner to get back on track after a horrible season.

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If we dealt Skinner, I think Florida would be the best destination since they've got the big physical guys to support a guy like Skinner. I'd love a deal like that, but it's just a question of how much weight gets put on skinners injury propensity.

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Just to be clear, all: I took Eklund's rumor at face value, and only suggested that if we're willing to do separately the things he talked about, we'd likely be willing to do them together for a killer return that helps us long term.

 

That being said: I do NOT think letting Skinner OR the pick go is smart. 

 

I think - as I have for the past five years - that rewarding Eric Staal like the first-line winger/second line center he has proved to be (at best) is smart.

 

I'm sorry, Rem, but IMO, on no other team in the league would E. Staal be a first-line center. Except maybe Toronto. Which ain't saying much. He's never been one here, as far as I'm concerned.

 

Being the top scorer on a losing team - whilst progressively dropping further and further off a point-a-game pace - is not what first-line centers do, particularly those making $9.5 million.

 

I have said for much too long now that Eric is more hurt than help. I still believe that. I think anybody his size who plays as soft as he does while pulling the kind of coin he does is indicative of an org that doesn't know what it's doing.

 

The questions for me this summer and going into next season remain the same as those I stated as our season ended: Will RF admit this team was lost under JR and either (1) withhold a deal from E., in order to leave zero doubt in his mind that for him, Raleigh's Last Chance Saloon is open from October to Thanksgiving, after which, if he is not the Eric Staal we thought we were buying 10 years ago, he is shopped actively and unremittingly for a deal prior to the trade deadline; or (2) signs him to a deal at $6 million (tops) for three years (tops) with no NTC.

 

If RF does anything other than those two things (short of trading him outright, of course) and E is still with the team going into camp, we are in for several more years of mediocrity. Hockey is like no other sport (except maybe football) in this regard: As the Captain (QB) goes, so goes the team. And this Captain hasn't "gone" for too many years to continue being worthy of Captain treatment.  

 

To KJUN, I'll just add that Skinner (along with everybody else) was awful last year. The year before, however he scored 33 goals. So it wasn't just a couple of years that he's been good. Can he get back? Yes - but only if he gets tougher and - every bit as important - the team around him does, too. If the Carolina Hurricanes of last season had somehow miraculously made it into the playoffs and through the East, the Finals would have made the OK Corral look like water pistols in the kiddie pool. There is still waaaaay too much softness on this team to be competitive against the East, let alone the bigger, much badder West.

 

The good news, as I posted on another thread, is that BP knows it and seems to be trying to address it. The question for me is whether the (Ronny) Franchise will too, and admit that our current "franchise player" is anything but. 

Edited by top-shelf-1

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top, totally agree, but could not understand what part of my comments you were responding to? But along the lines of thought related to our abysmal lack of "team or individual toughness", seeing on Hockey Buzz that Joel Ward may be cut free from the Caps. Now that could be a bit of "toughness".

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Top

Overall I don't think were that far off from each other. But I do think your post reflects the fact that it is difficult to know exactly what to do with Eric. I do not agree that he is never been a first-line center that would only be for the first line center on a single team. But I do agree that he has woefully under performed being paid the way he is. He is not being paid just to be a first-line center he's being paid to be an elite first line center. The problem is that he has shown flashes of being an elite first line center, but he does not do it with any kind of consistency.

A separate but equally important question with Eric is this: Eric as captain and leader of the team. Here it is difficult to know for sure outside of reading between the lines. Peters says that he has been a good leader we are not in the dressing room. On the other hand, the results have not been there, and really what do you expect coach to say.

If we could get Eric to re-sign at a much lower rate with no no trade clause there is still the issue of the captaincy. Is Eric at a place where he is ready to be a secondary contributor rather than the man?

It sounds like you are ready to give Eric another several months. But after all the negativity about him why?

If Eric could be traded before the deadline for a very high first round pick and a nice player in return would you do it? If Eric Staal says something along the lines of I want to be part of this team in the long run I don't care if I'm the captain and I don't care about making $9 million a year I'm willing to sign for six with no no trade clause let someone else be captain for a while. Would you sign them then? I think you would but it's not 100% clear to me.

Where I think we agree is that it is very difficult for this team to take a clear step forward without clarifying air stalls roll as soon as possible.

Edited by remkin

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Also on the fifth pick and Skinner:

Is there any return that would be worth dropping a few spots in the draft for? Is there any return that would be worth trading Skinner for?

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top, totally agree, but could not understand what part of my comments you were responding to? But along the lines of thought related to our abysmal lack of "team or individual toughness", seeing on Hockey Buzz that Joel Ward may be cut free from the Caps. Now that could be a bit of "toughness".

Your comments suggested to me that you thought Skinner's first two seasons were his one only good ones. If you meant his ROTH (rookie-of-the-year) and 2013-2014 were is only two good seasons, I misunderstood - ? 

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Top

Overall I don't think were that far off from each other. But I do think your post reflects the fact that it is difficult to know exactly what to do with Eric. I do not agree that he is never been a first-line center that would only be for the first line center on a single team. But I do agree that he has woefully under performed being paid the way he is. He is not being paid just to be a first-line center he's being paid to be an elite first line center. The problem is that he has shown flashes of being an elite first line center, but he does not do it with any kind of consistency.

A separate but equally important question with Eric is this: Eric as captain and leader of the team. Here it is difficult to know for sure outside of reading between the lines. Peters says that he has been a good leader we are not in the dressing room. On the other hand, the results have not been there, and really what do you expect coach to say.

If we could get Eric to re-sign at a much lower rate with no no trade clause there is still the issue of the captaincy. Is Eric at a place where he is ready to be a secondary contributor rather than the man?

It sounds like you are ready to give Eric another several months. But after all the negativity about him why?

If Eric's dog could be traded before the deadline for a very high first round pick and a nice player in return would you do it? If Eric Staal says something along the lines of I want to be part of this team in the long run I don't care if I'm the captain and I don't care about making $9 million a year I'm willing to sign for six with no no trade clause and you decide to the captains if Eric Staal says something along the lines of I want to be part of this team in the long run I don't care if I'm the captain and I don't care about making $9 million a year I'm willing to sign for six with no no trade clause let someone else be captain for a while. Would you sign them then? I think you would but it's not 100% clear to me.

Where I think we agree is that it is very difficult for this team to take a clear step forward without clarifying air stalls roll as soon as possible.

It seemed clear to me, but for your benefit: Sign him for $6 mil a year (or under - not likely, given the going rate for star [vs. superstar] forwards at the moment), without an NTC and with a (max) three-year deal, and I'm down with that.

 

But if he refuses to do a deal this summer with that as our "best offer" b/c he's holding out for more, don't sign him at all, and be crystal clear:  The NTC days are over, but if he wants more cashola, he's going to have to prove he can still play at a level that warrants it. If he hasn't done that by Thanksgiving, it's bye-bye at (or preferably long before) the TD. If he responds favorably, maybe he gets $6.5 mil with incentives to make $7 mil in the second year and 7.5 in the third.

 

If E can't raise his game during the first two months of the NHL season - when teams are not competing on anything approaching the level they will be, come March - he can't do it anymore, and we've already "fronted" him big, big money upon which we are still owed a return. Sayonara, and keep your keester clear of the door as you depart.

 

Hope this clears it up for you, Rem ;)

Edited by top-shelf-1

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So apparently, there are two teams that have serious offers for Arizona's 3rd overall pick.  One is a young player where they feel they wouldn't need another 1st rounder back, and the other is to move down several slots in the top 10.  It is believed the latter team is Columbus trying to move up to #3.

 

Either way, if Arizona trades that pick, we can kiss Hanifin goodbye.  Our only shot of getting him is if Arizona stays at 3.

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top, thanks for clarifying. My rather awkwardly worded statements on Skins were not intended to convey that I thought that his 1st 2 seasons were his "only" good ones, but to me, he failed to exceed those in the remaining years, staying more 1 dimensional! However, as I subsequently opined, I had a feeling that his game was on the uptick at the end of this past season. Can he elevate it more, IDK in the atmosphere of our team's composition, and that is why I'd like to see him moved. As much as anything, I'd like to see the young man get a chance in a different atmosphere so as not to experience stunted growth. I know it sounds weird to hope that a player does well on someone else's team, but anyway, that's me.

The larger issue tho that I really wanted to address, was that I really do not want to see the use of our high 1st round pick to erase any perceived team flaw, be it to package with Semin or Skinner for reasons amply discussed in this thread or numerous others. I admit that any draftee brings with him a fan's fantasy as to his as yet unseen talents, thus mine or anyone else's hope can fizzle in reality. However there is the very real argument that exchanging a drafted player with his constrained salary for an established player, no matter how good, certainly elevates our admittedly menial budget. Therefore, it seems to be the proverbial "rob Peter to pay Paul", and thus we go further in the hole.

No, on your proposals, I say keep the #5 pick and any trade proposal for Skins or anyone else separate.

PK17, I wish you'd elaborate on that last statement, "If Arizona trades their pick, we can kiss Hanifin goodbye". I take it by that, that you feel whoever trades up to #3, that they almost undoubtedly would take the reputed "best" defenseman? If so, this just underscores my feeling that we, or any team, should opt for a Dman over a forward when the 2 are equally rated. Granted, there is the very common conclusion that the abilities of Dmen are much more difficult to predict, but how difficult and expensive is it to go all JR and spurn choosing defensemen in early rounds? If we had stock piled the defense, I believe we'd not be in the predicament we've been in for the last 6 years.

Edited by KJUNKANE

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"If Eric's dog could be traded before the deadline for a very high first round pick and a nice player in return would you do it? "

 

Absolutely and hurry! from my arm chair view, I cant see how this team moves forward without a clear on-ice leader and I dont think E is the guy nor has ever been a 9 million elite type player.... along with the Semin grossly over payment, these type pf deals has to deflate team moral...nonetheless id take any reasonable offer for Staal and rebuild the team around a new leader... give BP a crop of new players and lets see what he can get out of them.. as mentioned before, the same core of players, with same results, after several coaches... why would resigning E as team capt. give hope for the future??? 

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PK17, I wish you'd elaborate on that last statement, "If Arizona trades their pick, we can kiss Hanifin goodbye". I take it by that, that you feel whoever trades up to #3, that they almost undoubtedly would take the reputed "best" defenseman? If so, this just underscores my feeling that we, or any team, should opt for a Dman over a forward when the 2 are equally rated. Granted, there is the very common conclusion that the abilities of Dmen are much more difficult to predict, but how difficult and expensive is it to go all JR and spurn choosing defensemen in early rounds? If we had stock piled the defense, I believe we'd not be in the predicament we've been in for the last 6 years.

 

The general consensus is that teams are going after Arizona's pick specifically to draft Hanifin.  Columbus was widely speculated to draft a dman with their pick, rather it had been Hanifin, Provorov, or Werenski, as they feel that is an organizational need.  The other team speculated to be trade partners with Arizona is Buffalo.  And I think they would most certainly draft Hanifin with the third pick.

 

What makes matters worse is there have been speculation that Toronto could now take Provorov with their 4th pick.  So we could miss out on both Hanifin and Provorov.

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What makes matters worse is there have been speculation that Toronto could now take Provorov with their 4th pick.  So we could miss out on both Hanifin and Provorov.

 

So Strome becomes the consolation prize?  Not the end of the world.

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It seemed clear to me, but for your benefit: Sign him for $6 mil a year (or under - not likely, given the going rate for star [vs. superstar] forwards at the moment), without an NTC and with a (max) three-year deal, and I'm down with that.

 

But if he refuses to do a deal this summer with that as our "best offer" b/c he's holding out for more, don't sign him at all, and be crystal clear:  The NTC days are over, but if he wants more cashola, he's going to have to prove he can still play at a level that warrants it. If he hasn't done that by Thanksgiving, it's bye-bye at (or preferably long before) the TD. If he responds favorably, maybe he gets $6.5 mil with incentives to make $7 mil in the second year and 7.5 in the third.

 

If E can't raise his game during the first two months of the NHL season - when teams are not competing on anything approaching the level they will be, come March - he can't do it anymore, and we've already "fronted" him big, big money upon which we are still owed a return. Sayonara, and keep your keester clear of the door as you depart.

 

Hope this clears it up for you, Rem ;)

It does. I sense a bit of ambivalence on him, which I totally get. I do still wonder why if he is the problem why we would want to keep him at all. Still, on that point of keeping him on a more reasonable deaI, I agree w/ you. The question will be this. Does E really want to be part of the team on those terms? Is he in a place to take the pay cut and remove the NTC? If not, we should try to trade him now if he'll let us and if we can. I know that some authors don't agree, but I think what we do w/ E. sets the table for the direction of the team. Also, while he may be motivated in a contract year, there will be distractions from it too, and in some ways he could become kind of a lame duck. Little by little he could get disgruntled and use the NTC against us. Recall Ray Whitney who reportedly refused a deal even at the deadline w/ the team out of contention. That could have been a first round pick who could be a key piece now. Instead....bupkiss.

 

Personally I really hope that he stays at a lower rate w/ no NTC. In that case we can find out if he can get his game back together, but have options if it isn't working. Rebuilding without him will be trickier. But he does hold a lot of cards. His agent represents Ward, J, and Skinner too. Did Francis and Staal's agent have their meeting yet?

Edited by remkin

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"If Eric's dog could be traded before the deadline for a very high first round pick and a nice player in return would you do it? "

 

Absolutely and hurry! from my arm chair view, I cant see how this team moves forward without a clear on-ice leader and I dont think E is the guy nor has ever been a 9 million elite type player.... along with the Semin grossly over payment, these type pf deals has to deflate team moral...nonetheless id take any reasonable offer for Staal and rebuild the team around a new leader... give BP a crop of new players and lets see what he can get out of them.. as mentioned before, the same core of players, with same results, after several coaches... why would resigning E as team capt. give hope for the future??? 

Well I was referring to his dog. Just kidding. That's what I get for posting into my phone!

 

This is a very legit question, and what I was trying to get at in part in that post. If E. as Captain and face of the franchise is the problem, then why keep him at all? 

 

To me, it depends on him, and the offered return in a trade. 

 

I think E. is still a very good player, but in a less prominent, less 9 million a year kind of way. If he would accept that, I'd still want him. Then again, if some GM would open the spicket on a offer and E would waive....it could be time.

 

So, depends on E.'s state of mind and possible offers. Thus no simple answer since we don't know those things.

Edited by remkin

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rem, much like your island of yore, your take on E Staal has been your mantra for months, AND I HAPPEN TO ALIGN WITH YOU ON BOTH. Saying that, and admitting that Eric is the key cog in the success or failure to this team going forward, I think we all need to recognize the precarious complexity that confronts our new GM in attempting to resolve the situation!!

First our vaunted, "pimp hand" leader of the past conscripted a true Gordian Knot which as it has unfolded appears close to unsolvable. When you look at it, JR set about his apparently misplaced idolization of both this player and likely his family, by placing him in a completely unattainable role of leadership that I believe eroded his true nature. That he is a "leader" certainly has not manifested itself ON ICE in the way us "arm chair coaches" can appreciate. Ergo, our collective conclusions have been that he's failed in that role(I disagree as we only are privy to the tip of the iceberg so to speak, but that is another discussion).

To make that situation worse, JR then succeeded in giving this player an exorbitant salary which not only has not aligned with his production, but fails the old eye test even worse when we throw in his on ice leadership deficiency.

As if those were not enough, JR managed the coupe of all and extend this relative underproducing, misfit leader an NTC thus tying the hands of any succeeding GM.

Also, recall that in addition to those factors, also on RF's plate is his personal relationship with this player, who was not only a teammate, but likely is considered his protégé!!

Saying all of that, and I have been long winded in doing so, I still hold out hope that Eric Staal is a good to excellent player, with honorable, faithful and burning loyalty to this franchise. Our leader, Ron Francis, is the perfect evaluator to assess his status, and I feel that this bodes well for resolution of the present conundrum.

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Can I throw out a technical question which just crossed my mind for you guys to ruminate on? Just reading a discussion on Hockey Buzz(I know, I know), but its being speculated that Edmonton may and more likely should Offer Sheet Dougie Hamilton. My quick take was that a player like this could really turn our franchise into a credible force. Now, I know the price would be steep in terms of picks(I believe a 1st, 2nd and 3rd), but with 2 1st rounders next year, that would not be a disaster.

Now, my question is, can several teams give offer sheets on the same player? Just what are the rules pertaining to that scenario, and can the player then accept any of the offers? I just have to believe, and not just being a complete "homer", that given a choice, a player most certainly choose Raleigh over Edmonton?

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I don't see any reason why multiple teams couldn't offer sheet an RFA.  But the targeted player doesn't have to sign an offer sheet and even if he does, the current team can sign the player by matching it.

 

I'm guessing that targeting an RFA might open up a team to retaliatory offers in the future, so I'd want to have a pretty good idea that an offer either 1) has a decent chance of success or 2) might debilitate a competitor that matches your offer enough financially that you'd benefit enough now to offset potential future blowback.  I'm not sure that either fits the current case. 

 

I feel like I'm being pretty negative this morning; hey you kids, get off of my lawn! :threaten:   

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Yes, Lake, I understand the implications of the act, and that has been the age old reasoning given for not doing it. Just seems that there continues to be rumblings that it may become more commonplace, what with budgetary constraints and all. It just seems curious that it is a practice allowed, but rarely resorted to??

 

Also, if several teams were to put in Offer Sheets on a player, than it seems that activity would lessen the angst or rather the ability of the affected team/GM to focus retribution toward a single person?

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Yes, Lake, I understand the implications of the act, and that has been the age old reasoning given for not doing it. Just seems that there continues to be rumblings that it may become more commonplace, what with budgetary constraints and all. It just seems curious that it is a practice allowed, but rarely resorted to??

 

Also, if several teams were to put in Offer Sheets on a player, than it seems that activity would lessen the angst or rather the ability of the affected team/GM to focus retribution toward a single person?

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against it. Matter of fact, I'd like to see us do it more often.. But I think you need to make it a strategic move when you have a decent probability of gaining some benefit. That just doesn't seem likely to me in this case. Now if we had shown last year that we were headed in the right direction, and not too far off of being competitive, I could see the likelihood of attracting young talent here as being significantly higher.  And at this point, I don't see us as benefiting from making Boston's life harder. I could see Detroit, Ottawa, or even Florida benefiting next season, but not so much us.

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